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Posted: 6/28/2015 10:31:24 PM EDT
I set out to build a 600 yard hammer. YHM Upper and Lower, M16 BCG with a WOA fitted bolt head to a WOA 16" heavy SDM barrel, 1:7 Wylde chamber, UBR stock, YHM Diamond Free Float rail, Geisselle SSA trigger, Wolfe springs, Burris Extreme rings and a SWFA 3x15. YHM QD Flash Suppressor and YHM 308 Suppressor (sometimes). So far it functions flawlessly but accuracy with the surplus mil M855 and M193 is crap 1.5 to 2.5", sometimes 3-4" at 100 (I can get .3-.4 with my 308 bolt gun with 308 175 FGMM clones, I'm a former 2111 Armorer, Marine Rifle Team shooter, DM contractor so I believe its not the shooter) I expected better than this and I suspect its too fast of a twist. I happened on a good deal with 500 77 gr SMK's and want to work up a load for it...I have BC2, RL15, and Varget on the shelf. I have a virtually unlimited supply of 1x LC brass. I have read that 24gr of RL 15 or Varget is the ticket for Service Rifles with this weight bullet and this twist but with 20-24" barrels. What issues will I have other than velocity drop running the 16" WOA?

Thanks
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:30:34 PM EDT

"  . . . but accuracy with the surplus mil M855 and M193 is crap 1.5 to 2.5", .."


yep.

FMJ sucks  for accuracy

Imagine these winchester 55gr turds spinning toward your target




you should have no issues with 77gr  RL 15 or Varget

just work them up normally

for tight 100yrd groups, try some 52gr SIERRA match kings over some WIN-748


Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:37:42 PM EDT
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Quoted:

"  . . . but accuracy with the surplus mil M855 and M193 is crap 1.5 to 2.5", .."


yep.

FMJ sucks  for accuracy

Imagine these winchester 55gr turds spinning toward your target

<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derek45/media/IMGP6673.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/IMGP6673.jpg</a>


you should have no issues with 77gr  RL 15 or Varget

just work them up normally

for tight 100yrd groups, try some 52gr SIERRA match kings over some WIN-748


View Quote


Even with the 7 twist?
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:46:55 PM EDT
Even with the 7 twist?
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YES

Link Posted: 6/29/2015 12:05:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:30:07 AM EDT
600 yards is pretty far. Of course you already know that, but running a 16" for 600 is a disadvantage, you are really losing a lot of speed. Build a 20" or 24" , JMO.
The 77's should make a pretty big improvement though.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:51:45 AM EDT
I recently did a load workup for my 18" AR with a 1:8 twist. I went with the Hornady 75 grain match because it has the highest published BC of similar bullets, however I am now reading that hornady may be fudging their numbers a bit so I might be looking at trying new projectiles soon. Anyway, 22.3 to 22.4 grains of Varget with no crimp was the best balance I could get of velocity and accuracy in this rifle. IIRC it chrono'd at 2400 or 2500 fps.  I'm consistently getting sub MOA 5 shot groups off a bipod, with my tightest group so far being 0.6" at 100 yards.

Last year I shot my deer with the hornady 75 grain TAP load. It exploded in the deer's neck and dropped the thing in its tracks. No suffering. It's not the exact same bullet but I think it's very similar.

I took it to a long range clinic and had no troubles making hits at 400 yards. Out to 500-750 the ballistic calculator seemed a bit off, and the ground wasn't very dusty so I couldn't quite figure out which direction to adjust it from there. It's also only hitting with like 200 ft lbs at that range so it was very difficult to see the pop up targets move when I did make contact. I will be using a  larger rifle next year.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 10:17:27 AM EDT
YUP...now that I see that pic I can see why they do what they do...all that non concentric weight being slung around...HOW does a contractor get to sell ammo like that to the .mil for our troops to use? That would be like placing a pound of wheel weights on your truck tires at 3 on one, 6, 9 and 12 o'clock on the others and haul ass down the highway wondering why it rode so bad...

Link Posted: 6/29/2015 10:29:56 AM EDT
That picture is an extreme case. I have a bunch of those that look a lot better. They still don't shoot like Hornaday FMJ's though.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 10:48:01 AM EDT
That's winchester 55grFMJ I bought years ago

It's fine for 25yrd 3-gun stages, but not worth a fuck for shooting groups

1/7 twist barrels can shoot QUALITY light bullets just fine
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 11:08:27 AM EDT
If I was setting up a new load for the 600 yard line, I'd look at RL 15 and the new Sierra Tipped Match Kings in 77gr.  I believe that's going to be the highest BC you'll find that you can load to mag length.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 11:16:54 AM EDT
This was 10 rounds shot at 100 yards bench rest 52gr Hornady BTHP #2249, 22gr of LT-32 with a YHM upper/lower, Nikon 4-12X40 scope, 16" Green Mountain barrel, Hiperfire 24C trigger. Yes FMJ sucks for accuracy.

From another post about this target.
Velocity
1. 2855
2. 2822
3. 2837
4. 2892
5. 2936
6. 2861
7. 2836
8. 2855
9. 2892
10. 2841


Vince
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 3:53:09 PM EDT

 1/7 twist is to fast for those light bullets
 I use 77s at 200 and 300 yards( mag length ) and 80s at 600 yards ( single loaded through ejection port )

 16" is to short for 600 yards
 use a 20" or 24" barrel
 I use a 20"

 do not use a flash suppressor  ( it will affect accuracy at 600 )

 I get better (smaller) patterns with stick powder
 I use Varget with CCI # BR4 primers

 some use RL15 only so they can load cases faster ( meters much better from machine )
 I would rather have more accurate rounds
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 4:20:26 PM EDT
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Quoted:
If I was setting up a new load for the 600 yard line, I'd look at RL 15 and the new Sierra Tipped Match Kings in 77gr.  I believe that's going to be the highest BC you'll find that you can load to mag length.
View Quote



+1 They shoot well with RL-15, XBR8208 and Tac. Hornady 75's would be the next in line.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 4:41:13 PM EDT
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Quoted:
 1/7 twist is to fast for those light bullets
 I use 77s at 200 and 300 yards( mag length ) and 80s at 600 yards ( single loaded through ejection port )
View Quote


Target picture that I posted was a green mountain 16" 1-7 twist barrel, 1-7 twist is NOT too fast for a 52gr bullet.

Vince
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 5:20:22 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Target picture that I posted was a green mountain 16" 1-7 twist barrel, 1-7 twist is NOT too fast for a 52gr bullet.

Vince
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Quoted:
Quoted:
 1/7 twist is to fast for those light bullets
 I use 77s at 200 and 300 yards( mag length ) and 80s at 600 yards ( single loaded through ejection port )


Target picture that I posted was a green mountain 16" 1-7 twist barrel, 1-7 twist is NOT too fast for a 52gr bullet.

Vince


Agreed. People who think 1/7 is too fast for 52/53 grain match bullets are working off theory, not actual performance. 52/53 grain bullets have given me the smallest groups at 100 yards through any twist rate .223 barrel.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 5:22:19 PM EDT
Service rifle competitors run 20" barrels at 600 yards. Match rifle (space guns) competitors run 24" or 26" barrels at 600 yards. Why handicap yourself?
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 6:38:30 PM EDT
here is what i run with

my spr has an 18" rainier match series (made by WOA)
below are the loads ive worked up using 77gr matchkings, i have some 77 noslers worked up for this weekend

the data below is for MY rifle. YOU need to work up to these loads, dont just stuff the powder in. pressure spikes get spooky with the 77's

LC brass
CCI 450's
77gr matchkings at 2.25"

24.2gr of RL15 gave me avg 2615 fps and holds at half moa or better at 100 yards. this load is over max published data
23.6gr of TAC gave me an avg of 2690. This is a 5.56 load, use caution. this load hangs right around half moa to 3/4 moa at 100

I tried varget but I couldnt get any more gains past a certain point, it hung around 2580 fps.
Accuracy is more important than speed but keep in mind the slower your bullet moves the longer it is exposed to factors like wind.
you want the fastest load that is still accurate
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 7:58:19 PM EDT
Just for comparison with the Winchester bullets previously pictured here is a shot of Hornady 55gr FMJ #2267, much higher quality.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 8:08:15 PM EDT
Here is another target from the same shooting session shooting Hornady 55gr FMJ with 25gr of H335 at 100 yards also

Velocities
1. 2949
2. 3023
3. 2904
4. 2930
5. 2962
6. 2930
7. 2904
8. 2917
9. 2922
10. 2935
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 8:08:21 PM EDT
16" carbine gas system I imagine is what you have.  A heavier bullet will certainly help, 20" barrel and rifle gas is a much better combo.  You hit stuff with out there with the Hornady 55 FMJ, but higher BC bullets of 69-77 will work just fine with RL15 or Varget.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 8:21:53 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
16" carbine gas system I imagine is what you have.  A heavier bullet will certainly help, 20" barrel and rifle gas is a much better combo.  You hit stuff with out there with the Hornady 55 FMJ, but higher BC bullets of 69-77 will work just fine with RL15 or Varget.
View Quote


I just loaded up 20 rounds of Hornady 75gr Match BTHP #2279 with 19.1 gr of LT-32 will see how they perform with my combo probably the end of the week. Yep 16 carbine gas system.

Vince
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 9:27:22 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Just for comparison with the Winchester bullets previously pictured here is a shot of Hornady 55gr FMJ #2267, much higher quality.
http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/medium/DSC_0036.JPG
View Quote



Yep,  Hornady  makes about the nicest FMJ I've seen.

There 30 cals are just as nice.

Link Posted: 6/30/2015 1:31:45 PM EDT
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Quoted:


I just loaded up 20 rounds of Hornady 75gr Match BTHP #2279 with 19.1 gr of LT-32 will see how they perform with my combo probably the end of the week. Yep 16 carbine gas system.

Vince
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
16" carbine gas system I imagine is what you have.  A heavier bullet will certainly help, 20" barrel and rifle gas is a much better combo.  You hit stuff with out there with the Hornady 55 FMJ, but higher BC bullets of 69-77 will work just fine with RL15 or Varget.


I just loaded up 20 rounds of Hornady 75gr Match BTHP #2279 with 19.1 gr of LT-32 will see how they perform with my combo probably the end of the week. Yep 16 carbine gas system.

Vince


LT-32 is too fast for the heavy bullets in .223. Varget, RE-15, N140, H4895 or IMR-8208-XBR are known to perform well with the heavy bullets. Your shorter barrel will not get anywhere near the velocities produced by in 20" barrels, perhaps 150 to almost 200 fps slower. The LT-32 will work great with 52/53 grain match bullets and standard 55 grain fmj/sp's, not with the heavies.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:42:25 PM EDT
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Quoted:
LT-32 is too fast for the heavy bullets in .223. Varget, RE-15, N140, H4895 or IMR-8208-XBR are known to perform well with the heavy bullets. Your shorter barrel will not get anywhere near the velocities produced by in 20" barrels, perhaps 150 to almost 200 fps slower. The LT-32 will work great with 52/53 grain match bullets and standard 55 grain fmj/sp's, not with the heavies.
View Quote


Correct, I have broken down the bullets and will be substituting the LT-32 for CFE223.

Vince
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:29:12 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
YUP...now that I see that pic I can see why they do what they do...all that non concentric weight being slung around...HOW does a contractor get to sell ammo like that to the .mil for our troops to use? That would be like placing a pound of wheel weights on your truck tires at 3 on one, 6, 9 and 12 o'clock on the others and haul ass down the highway wondering why it rode so bad...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/IMGP6673.jpg
View Quote



They don't, they sell it to re loaders who don't know any better. Winchester components have been bottom tier for a long time.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:40:21 PM EDT
Yeah...but winchester brass, primers, and powder are fine & dandy
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:53:13 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Yeah...but winchester brass, primers, and powder are fine & dandy
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Not their Winchester White Box ammo though.

Vince
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:12:29 PM EDT
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Quoted:...

Not their Winchester Whit Box ammo though.

Vince
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LOL

true


....what's factory ammo ?  
Link Posted: 7/1/2015 8:39:24 AM EDT
If you ran a hot rod car off of 87 octane pump gas, it would perform poorly.  Same applies with M193 and M855 fodder in hopped up AR.  As other stated, pick up some premium bullets
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