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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/9/2005 3:53:42 AM EDT
Married w/6 kids. Wife wanted a girl, I wanted a boy, 5 boys then the girl.how,
Now, lets say you wanted to be prepared. Forget hunting, talking purely self defense and not just a single intruder scenario but the full monty worst possible case (not that I'm paranoid or anything hat
All replies greatly appreciated. Wouldn't mind a rough order of magnitude of what the investment will total.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:49:00 AM EDT
6 ARs.

Familiarity, same ammo, light weight and good for smaller stature people.

2 Shotguns

Mossberg 590 SP

4 Pistols

Glock 19 or any glock that fits your hand well as well as your other family member

Your looking at about 3600 for ARs 600 for shotguns, 2200 for pistols about 800 in magazines and ammo.

Max
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:30:58 AM EDT
AR full size A3 rifle with Tasco Super Sniper scope and ARMS throw lever rings. Beretta 92F in 9mm. Lots of mags and ammo for both.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:34:41 AM EDT

Are you thinkin' about starting a "fringe religious group"?

I like the suggestions made by maxell but I would replace one of the shotguns with something in a longer range caliber say a M1A or AR10 in .308. If you are truly being invaded, longer range knockdown and shooting through cover would be some nice options.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:38:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 5:41:38 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By maxell27:
6 ARs.

Familiarity, same ammo, light weight and good for smaller stature people.

2 Shotguns

Mossberg 590 SP

4 Pistols

Glock 19 or any glock that fits your hand well as well as your other family member

Your looking at about 3600 for ARs 600 for shotguns, 2200 for pistols about 800 in magazines and ammo.

Max


Sounds about good, though I'd throw a .308, be it a semi auto(AR10 or M1A) or a bolt gun though I'd gravitate tword the AR10 because it's similar in controls and ergonomics to the AR15.. I'm not big on glocks but it's a good call for dependability and all out survivability in rough situations.

I'd also mix up the ARs a little bit, if you have smaller statured folks, a couple carbines in the mix would be good. Also I'd recommend going with a stock on the A2s that is closer in length to the A1 stock, an actual A1 stock or something like a Sully Stock. Also I'd go A3 uppers on all of them to make it a little easier for optics and such. It just gives you more versitility.

As for optics, I'd go Eotech the more and more I shoot guns with them the more and more I like them over the Aimpoint. I'd aslo put a low power variable on at least one of the guns, or at least a ACOG at least on one of the ARs, maybe two of them, and scope the 308 with a good 2.5-10 or 2-12.


Ans on top of all of that, I'd say some classes in how to actually fight with a gun, you may know, and you may be able to teach people how to, but sometimes it's easier to learn it when somone else is teaching it besides dad/husband(I've seen it first hand) So you may want to consder a pistol and a rifle class at some point too. It can't hurt only help. Being able to shoot with a gun, and being able to fight with a gun are two different animals.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:13:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
...but sometimes it's easier to learn it when somone else is teaching it besides dad/husband (I've seen it first hand)...










Oswald, Photoman has some good ideas posted, although you might get a better response (better as in more people offering excellent advice) in the Survival forum.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:15:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By photoman:
...but sometimes it's easier to learn it when somone else is teaching it besides dad/husband (I've seen it first hand)...










Oswald, Photoman has some good ideas posted, although you might get a better response (better as in more people offering excellent advice) in the Survival forum.



Don't make me take you hostage
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:47:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 6:50:05 AM EDT by 53vortec]
Off the top of my head:

(4) AR-15 16" Flattop Carbines w/ EOTech optics.
I prefer the EOTech mounts that mate to the xarry handle and place the optic over the handgaurd. Thos allows cowitnessing of iron sights. While the flattop is not necessary with that rig, it gives you the option of adding an ACOG later if you see fit.

(2) AR-15 20" A4 Rifles w/ ACOG optics.
You may opt to put A1 stocks on these rifles, depending on everyone's stature or if anyone feels they're too long. You could setup a rifle like this even more like an SPR (heavy stainless barrel), but stay away from match or .223 chambers that could affect reliability.

(2) AR-10A4 20" Rifles w/ Leupold or Burris optics.

(2) Remigton 870 Police Model Shotgun (full length mag tube)

(8) Any of the following (don't mix and match): Glock 17, Glock 22, CZ-75B 9mm or .40 S&W

I believe this mix of long guns gives you the most options while staying consistant on the AR platform. The carbines offer light weight, increased manueverability, are ideal in vehicles and can deal with the majority of tasks you can ask of a rifle. The 20" A4's offer an edge in accuracy and range. The AR-10s are your long range heavy hitters. The 870s are there for an added option an in case you have to "Alamo" - they're devastating at close range, if it comes to that. You can distribute the rifles out according to your situation. You can have two scout teams, each with an AR-10 and a carbine, while two rifles and two carbines remain at the house; or two fire teams, each with two carbines and a rifle, with the AR-10s providing long range fire from the house. So on and so fourth. Everyone should be able to hit "minute of man" out to 300 yards with any of these rifles. Remember, kids who have never seen a gun before in their life are qualifying at Camp Pendleton and Camp Lejune out to 500 yards with the A4s. There's no reason that everyone shouldn't be able to hit out to 300 with any of the ARs. Your marksmen should be able to do better (500 with the A4s, 800 with the .308s.)

The pistols are up to you. I believe that if you're going to dedicate a lot of time training everyone, the CZ design has a slight edge over the Glock in the accuracy dept., due mostly to it's superior trigger pull. The Glocks are easier to train people on. I think the .40 would be a better performer, but some people find the reduced recoil of the 9 easier to handle. You know your group better than I do in this regard. Any of the four pistols will get the job done.

Hope this helps. Out of curiosity, what were you doing in the sand box? I've been over here a little over a year myself.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 7:21:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 7:38:38 AM EDT by Zoso]
First off, I like your thinking. If I had acres of property, I'd want to have a good Shit Hits The Fan contingiency as well.

I think 6 ARs is a bit much. Variety is the spice of life. Although interchangability of parts and magazines is a huge plus, *begins to dig foxhole* the AR is not all-mighty, and might not be the optimal choice for EVERY situation.

One thing you should ask yourself is if your family members will actually take time to maintain their weapons. If you take care of your rifle, it will take care of you.

That being said, if you trust your family will take at least relatively good care of their weapons, here's what I would personally suggest.

Four AR-15 type rifles. Two 20" and two carbines. I'd suggest 11.5" SBRs if you dont mind a little paperwork. If you dont want the hassle, 16" is fine. I'd suggest three red-dots (Aimpoint for me) for the two carbines and one 20", and a low-level magnification (4x) optic(pref ACOG) for the other, and give that one to whomever you'd think would be the best shot with an AR. Then stock up on as many mags as possible.

One full-power bolt-gun with high magnification optic to allocate to the best shot of the family. A Remington 700 in .308 should do the job well. Especially if you can get one converted to take M14/M1A magazines. Because you never know when you might need 20 well-aimed shots in a row hat
Two .308 Caliber Battle-Rifles. These are indespensible in a perimeter-defense situation, where long-range shooting is required. And in the wooded area you described, it will help to have rifles that will cut straight through the trees. I'd suggest an M1A, FAL or AR-10. I left out the G3 because most affordable clones aren't as reliable as one might desire, and authentic HK-91s will run you almost 2 grand a piece. For both of these I'd reccomend the users become well-trained with iron sights, but if you want an optic, I'd suggest a low-magnification one. The 2x 2-MOA Aimpoints would probably be good choices. Some are probably going to say it would be stupid to put such a low-magnification optic on a long-range battle-rifle, but if the shit REALLY hit the fan, and your targets were under 250 yards away, a high-magnification optic can be a set-back, as fast target-acquisition is key. Again, stock up on magazines.

At least one 12-Gauge Remington 870 7-Shot Security or Police model to allocate to the worst shot in the family(dont tell him/her that though). I've had mine for over a year now and couldn't be happier. Unshakable reliability, good spread pattern, can take 3" magnums although I wouldn't recommend it, and there are many aftermarket accessories to deck it out, so the user can feel confident in his weapon. I'd suggest an SST-870 stock-adapter, as it can take any AR-type stock/grip and comes with either an optic rail, or iron sights. It will work well with the ARs.

The handgun issue is a little more complicated.

Handguns are like... uh... shoes. One-size does NOT fit all. Although you are all part of the same family, which is a big plus as you should have similar hand sizes/shapes, a pistol that fits like a glove on one person can feel horribly uncomfortable for someone else. I suggest taking a few family members to your nearest gun shop and see if you can fondle a few pistols and see which ones fit you best. If I were in your situation, I'd probably get 6 Jericho/Baby-Eagles in 9mm(say what you will, I've yet to fire one that I didn't love) and Two .357 Magnum revolvers with 6" barrels to whomever could handle them best. And of course stock up on 15 round 9mm magazines.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 7:49:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 7:50:08 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Zoso:
.......... I'd probably get 6 Jericho/Baby-Eagles in 9mm(say what you will, I've yet to fire one that I didn't love) and Two .357 Magnum revolvers with 6" barrels to whomever could handle them best. And of course stock up on 15 round 9mm magazines.





I sent an IM to oswald to break down guns and set ups. One thing I mentioned as well was the fact that pistols are extremly personal and how I shoot a Baby Eagle because I can't stand glocks, they are good guns but I'm not comfortable with them, same with the beretta so I sold the beretta and now just run the Baby Eagle as it's the one hand gun that i am the most comfortable with.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:10:30 AM EDT
Think short term right now. Get what you can afford. Maveric shotties, and Makarovs, maybe bolt gun too. Then add the highend stuff. Ammo and guns for the elcheapo rout is less than 2K.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:56:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1IV:
Think short term right now. Get what you can afford. Maveric shotties, and Makarovs, maybe bolt gun too. Then add the highend stuff. Ammo and guns for the elcheapo rout is less than 2K.



Always good advice, execpt in this case


So, given that you've worked in the sandbox for two years and have a rather indulgent budget
seems like the money issues isn't either an issue or is not a consideration at this point.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:38:34 AM EDT
Ok, if money is not a problem get eight glock 19s, Eight M4 type Ar15s, and Seven mags per rifle and pistol, Ammo, and 2 pistolgrip pump shotguns with a 18 in barrel. Get an assortment of ammo for the shotties, and you will need one Very accurate .308 bolt gun. So fogure $850 per AR, $450 per G19, and mags for both will be 1K, Bolt gun will be 1K, Ammo 1K....
you are looking at 15K for all brand new stuff.

Add 1K for a good safe, and 8k for a good fence. $ 22,000 out the door


Ouch. If my wife ever saw that figure she would be at DSW shoe warehouse for ten weeks trying to catch up.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 11:01:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 11:03:56 AM EDT by LonePathfinder]
There are a million team configurations we can give you. Everyone is going to list their favorite weapons. But to really help out we need to know:

What is your Budget over all?
How well trained are your shooters? Is your wife and daughter that "into" guns? Can they use a full length rifle or do they need a carbine?
How do you plan on operating if you have to fight? Hunker down in the house? Counter Attack (if so how many? all 8, 6? 4?? Going to patrol the property in SHTF? If so what size patrols, two men or four?
Whats the longest shot you'd have on your property (longest clear lane of fire?)?
How thick are the woods? Is it a pine forest with little undergrowth or crap all over?

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 11:34:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maxell27:
glock that fits your hand well



Link Posted: 8/9/2005 1:37:16 PM EDT
ARs and Glocks for everyone, at least 1 .308 caliber semi auto rifle and a good very accurate bolt rifle in at least .308 maybe even a .30 magnum depending on your longest field of fire (always nice to keep them in their holes.)


Oh, and for those moving shots on an open limo I'd suggest a 6.5mm Carcano scoped rifle. You'd want to be high up though, maybe the sixth floor. Or possibly the grassy knoll
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:49:13 PM EDT
I would suggest ARs, a mix of carbines and 20" rifles.

As for pistols, I personally have high reguard for the Beretta 92FS and the Walther P99. What ever floats your boat though. Get a decent pistol that you like , not the most whiz bang tactical wonder out there that everyone is drooling over.

Rem. 870 for a shotgun if you want one.

I would highly suggest a .308 0f some flavor. I have littl experence with bolt guns, but I would suggest with out hesitation a FAL as an excellent battle rifle.

Also, though I may get laughed at, I would suggest throwing a Garand or two in the mix. M1A if you prefer, but on open country as you describe, I think the Garand would be a good fit. The availability of M-2 AP is a plus in 30-06, though you could reload 308 whith it I guess.

It all really boils down to personal opinion.

But I will mention with pistols, look hard at the Walther P9, Beretta 92 or 96 and the Springfield XD. With a cutting of a mew mag catch hole in the mags, Beretta mags can feed all three IIRC. I know for a fact they can for the Walther.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:04:20 PM EDT
What do you need guns for when you have 911?

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:27:05 PM EDT
4 fixed stock AKs (7.62x39), 2 RPKs (7.62x39), 2 FALs, all semi's of course - $6,000
Not much long range shooting on 26 acres.

8 S&W or Taurus revolvers, 4" barrels, in .38/.357 - Approximately $4,000

Magazines, Drums and Ammo (LOTS of each) - $6,000 - $7,000.

That should do for awhile.

SM



Link Posted: 8/9/2005 7:42:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 8:07:29 PM EDT by oswald01]
Thanks for the responses and ideas. Lots of great advice and plenty to mull over. Sandbox was mostly as a green zone weenie. I was once a gun nut but got out of it just holding on to my match FWB air rifle and pistol and some other odds and ends. I look upon costs as an investment. I well remember buying a HK91 and with the $50 rebate going home with it for around $500. I used to love hitting the Houston Astro Hall gun show after an overseas assignment.

I'm not real current except what I see in the DEFACs . Surprised no one mentioned the upcoming FN2000's. I came so close to getting an AUG many times. I'm leaning towards two teams around a 308. There is indeed extreme long range possibilities as the property adjoins a huge sod farm so I may go bolt for them. I also have two "escape" routes. Arabian horses or sea kayaks.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:08:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By oswald01:
Thanks for the responses and ideas. Lots of great advice and plenty to mull over. Sandbox was mostly as a green zone weenie. I was once a gun nut but got out of it just holding on to my match FWB air rifle and pistol and some other odds and ends. I look upon costs as an investment. I well remember buying a HK91 and with the $50 rebate going home with it for around $500. I used to love hitting the Houston Astro Hall gun show after an overseas assignment.

I'm not real current except what I see in the DEFACs . Surprised no one mentioned the upcoming FN2000's. I came so close to getting an AUG many times. I'm leaning towards two teams around a 308. There is indeed extreme long range possibilities as the property adjoins a huge sod farm so I may go bolt for them. I also have two "escape" routes. Arabian horses or sea kayaks.



I Like the look and Idea of the FS2000, but Im not gonna recomend it to anyone till I can at least lay hands on it.

Looks to be a good gun though, I may buy one.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:28:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SandyMush:
4 fixed stock AKs (7.62x39), 2 RPKs (7.62x39), 2 FALs, all semi's of course - $6,000
Not much long range shooting on 26 acres.

8 S&W or Taurus revolvers, 4" barrels, in .38/.357 - Approximately $4,000

Magazines, Drums and Ammo (LOTS of each) - $6,000 - $7,000.

That should do for awhile.

SM






Seein as he's looking for SHTF guns, anything in 7.62x39 would honestly be a bad choice unless he wants to stock pile a million or so rounds. If SHTF bad enough that you have to bug out and run armed patrols on your BO property, chances are good that 7.62x39 ammo will run short on availability after a little bit. .223 and other "American" ammo will still be plentiful, or at least more common to find and as such would be a better choice.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:45:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 8:56:13 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:55:20 AM EDT

+100 on getting "Boston's Gun Bible." It's a great book and written by a guy who knows what he's talking about, except when he ditches the HK93.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:03:14 AM EDT
Well if money truly is no probelm:
Then choose from:
AR-15
AR-10
FAL
HK G3 clones
M14/M1A
M96 Expeditionary Rifle
FS2000
AUG
CX4 Storm (PDW)
PS90 (maybe short barrel it)(could be used as PDW to bolt gunner)

I'd really think if your going 308, dont waste it on a bolt gun. Get a semi, match grade M1A should be accurate enough. If you do go bolt gun, get something a bit bigger, 338 maybe, maybe one of the those artic warfare sniper rifles.

If you want some heavy firepower, get some rifles with heavy barrels or better yet quick change barrels with some spares. AUGs, M96, RPK would do. Then stock up on C-Mags or Drums and you have a faux SAW for each team. Go class 3 if you want, or not, you can sustain a pretty good rate of fire on semi only.

You could get one of those "machine guns" that use 10/22's for fixed defense
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:05:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By SandyMush:
4 fixed stock AKs (7.62x39), 2 RPKs (7.62x39), 2 FALs, all semi's of course - $6,000
Not much long range shooting on 26 acres.

8 S&W or Taurus revolvers, 4" barrels, in .38/.357 - Approximately $4,000

Magazines, Drums and Ammo (LOTS of each) - $6,000 - $7,000.

That should do for awhile.

SM






Seein as he's looking for SHTF guns, anything in 7.62x39 would honestly be a bad choice unless he wants to stock pile a million or so rounds. If SHTF bad enough that you have to bug out and run armed patrols on your BO property, chances are good that 7.62x39 ammo will run short on availability after a little bit. .223 and other "American" ammo will still be plentiful, or at least more common to find and as such would be a better choice.




Yeah seeing s how he wants a SHTF gun he probably would want a weapon that would be as apt to break. Therefore an AK or some variant thereof. If you only use $5,000 of the money I suggested, that is approximately 50,000 rounds of AK 7.62 at todays prices. I would think that is more than enough for SHTF. Buy it cheap and stack it deep now while you can. If you are spending all of your energies defending the "26 acres" how are you going to have time to to go into an unsecured area and buy 5056 ammo and AR parts?

SM
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:54:40 AM EDT
For SHTF, I recommend this:

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:12:26 PM EDT
5-6 ARs--several configs, some w/ CQB optics, some w/ mid-range optics (all 5.56)
2-3 FALs/M1As or a Rem 700 and 2 M1As/FALs, all scoped for mid-range/long range (.308)

2 Rem 870s (12ga)

8 Glock 19s/G21s (cheapest), 6 1911s, 2 .357mag revolvers (everyone gets 2 pistols)--3 different calibers so you can pick up enemy ammo

lots of 5.56, .308, 9mm/.45acp/.357mag, 12ga ammo and mags

training

radios, scanners, good 4x4, gas, food
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:08:10 PM EDT
My recommendations:

Rifles
5 AR15 Carbines
3 FALs

Shotguns
6 12 gauge Mossberg 500/590 or Remington 870
2 20 gauge Mossberg 500/590 or Remington 870

Handguns
8 9mm handguns of your choice
8 38 cal snubnose rev. S&W

Hand held communication radios with a main base at the house and one for each car/truck.

Lots of ammo and cleaning kits! Body armer would be a good add on if possible.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 12:13:14 AM EDT
Are you AWOL or did you bring back bin laden or a high priority that we should know about. It seems like you are hiding from someone or something dangerous. Or seems like you missed playing counterstrike while abroad. If you have arabian horses and kayaks as backup escape plans you might as well buy some .50 cal turrents and mini-guns to mount on the horses and kayaks. And for the house maybe some cannons on the roof and some mortar tubes.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 3:17:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 3:34:08 AM EDT by oswald01]
Marcel - I think you've crossed the line fron "hard core" to "extreme" hanks
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 3:38:21 AM EDT
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