Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/30/2002 6:49:22 AM EST
After reading the whole damned rule book, reading internet responses, and talking to ATF, here's what I found out about sellers having to supply FFL license. ATF Special Agent told me they had to swap FFL's but for me to check with higher dept. Called and talked to an Inspector-real simple, buyer only has to supply FFL. No wonder this is so hard to get the straight skinny! After rifle is in my possession I'll take appropriate action with my FFL.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 7:53:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 7:54:43 AM EST by Kaliburz]
Ah..... so the truth is known.

So all this time, the majority of the FFL dealers who want it transfered from an FFL is only saving their bacon in case the weopon is illegal then..... or ..... they're trying to drum up more biz for their other FFL buddies.

Edit-
PS nice signature line......
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 8:55:30 AM EST
I don't think it'll make a hill of beans what the ATF Inspector says to this FFL guy. He knows more than everybody(probably even the ATF). I've been a professional for 25 yrs. I hope that I never get to be so arrogant that I start to talk in the middle of another person's sentence because I know what he is going to say! Bottom line- he's running his kingdom anyway he wants to. My first and last time to do business with him.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:08:31 AM EST
Well, it is his world. AND he does have to document where the item came from, be it a person OR another FFL. A Pistol needs to have a FFL on both ends if it is an out of state deal.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:10:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 9:13:25 AM EST by Jim_Dandy]

Well, it is his world. AND he does have to document where the item came from, be it a person OR another FFL.

Well, gee, non-licensees send their firearms to licensees for repair all of the time. Then what?



A Pistol needs to have a FFL on both ends if it is an out of state deal.

BULLSHIT!!!! Cite a law, SPECIFICALLY.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:17:34 AM EST

So all this time, the majority of the FFL dealers who want it transfered from an FFL is only saving their bacon in case the weopon is illegal then..... or ..... they're trying to drum up more biz for their other FFL buddies.

I doubt they're trying to drum up any business for anyone. It's usually done out of either liability concerns or ignorance/stupidity. More often than not, the latter.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:22:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 9:33:24 AM EST by kkyle]
JC- Look- Read the steps I've taken to find out the law. Call the ATF yourself and don't rely on a special agent's reply, ask to talk to an Inspector. It's almost like the cop on the street wants this to be complicated. If you can give me an inspector's name that states what you say is the truth, I'll get him in touch with the one I just talked to.
JIM_DANDY- I'd have to say this guy's problem is he's listening to a local ATF agent friend. I believe this because he told me to check with the ATF if I didn't believe him. I didn't call the field office in our area, I called Houston. He probably didn't count on that.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:28:50 AM EST
Let me get this straight! I want to receive a shotgun from my brother-in-law in Florida. Can I have to have him ship it to me personally or do I have to go through an FFL in NJ? But if I do need an FFL holder, it's only one on my end.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:39:41 AM EST

Let me get this straight! I want to receive a shotgun from my brother-in-law in Florida. Can I have to have him ship it to me personally or do I have to go through an FFL in NJ? But if I do need an FFL holder, it's only one on my end.

YOU will need an FFL holder to receive it for you in New Jersey. Your B-I-L can box it up and go right down to UPS, Post Office, etc. and send it the FFL holder where you are who will conduct the NICS and make the transfer. Aren't you going to Florida anytime soon?
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:47:56 AM EST
Not soon enough! I need it for a tactical course. could take it on the plane back home though, as long as it is in a locked case and checked in at baggage, right?
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:47:59 AM EST

I'd have to say this guy's problem is he's listening to a local ATF agent friend. I believe this because he told me to check with the ATF if I didn't believe him. I didn't call the field office in our area, I called Houston. He probably didn't count on that.

Did you tell the Houston office who the dealer was and explain the situation? Point being they'll often contact the dealer as a courtesy to you and tell him to get his ass in gear. I've done it before, works every time.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:48:40 AM EST
Kkyle, too bad you did not get this information in a signed letter from the ATF. A signed letter would save a lot of people a lot of grief with FFLs that will not do this.

Mantaur006, you have to receive it through an FFL on your end in NJ. Regardless of what is legal and what is not, a lot of FFLs have a store policy that they will not accept a rifle or shotgun from a non-FFL. It is up to you to verify this with any FFL that you use. I went through this not being aware of the my FFL's policy and went through hell for two months trying to get what I had paid for.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:48:55 AM EST

could take it on the plane back home though, as long as it is in a locked case and checked in at baggage, right?

Yes, you sure can.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 10:00:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 10:14:36 AM EST by kkyle]
Just in case anyone wants why I didn't get this policy of FFL holder first-I did. My FFL holder found out that his license was screwed up when he went to order. I believe this guy's story, he just doesn't use his license that often. He then went to another FFL holder friend and asked him to help me out. I didn't know this arrangement was being made and didn't get to question the second FFL holder.
J_DANDY- I might have someone contact him AFTER I get the rifle. I've already told the first FFL guy, he agreed with the his stand in, also was adamant about the way it's been done for years. I gave him the name and number to call this morning and told him to call me back if I was wrong. He hasn't called.
I'm buying at gunshows from now on!
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:17:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Well, it is his world. AND he does have to document where the item came from, be it a person OR another FFL.

Well, gee, non-licensees send their firearms to licensees for repair all of the time. Then what?

Um, your point is? When you send a firearm in to be repaired it is logged in, provided it is there 24hrs, and then logged out when it is taken out and shipped back directly to the sender. If you dropped off a firearm to be repaired you can collect it without paperwork but if your Wife goes to collect it for you or anyone else for that matter, they have to do the paperwork.


A Pistol needs to have a FFL on both ends if it is an out of state deal.

BULLSHIT!!!! Cite a law, SPECIFICALLY.

LOL, first off take a chill pill. I suspect you are the high strung type? Anyhow, I was thinking of transfer of pistols using USPS and did not convey my thoughts properly. You have to have FFLs on both ends to send a pistol through USPS. This was more of a statement than an argument of the above posts.

Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:17:49 PM EST
kkyle,
Just find a good FFL you can count on who knows his stuff. They are out there.
I have never yet bought a gun from a gunshow. Prices are ridiculous and alot of FFLs try to dump their crap at gunshows. My 2 cents.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:19:36 PM EST

Anyhow, I was thinking of transfer of pistols using USPS and did not convey my thoughts properly.

The Postal Service doesn't transfer firearms, they ship them. BIG DIFFERENCE. FFL holders, i.e. dealers, TRANSFER firearms.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:35:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Anyhow, I was thinking of transfer of pistols using USPS and did not convey my thoughts properly.

The Postal Service doesn't transfer firearms, they ship them. BIG DIFFERENCE. FFL holders, i.e. dealers, TRANSFER firearms.



My appologies, I should have been more specific for the members here that would deliberately or foolishly misconstruing an otherwise clear statement.

Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:41:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
The Postal Service doesn't transfer firearms, they ship them. BIG DIFFERENCE. FFL holders, i.e. dealers, TRANSFER firearms.



Actually, the ATF construes a "transfer" to have taken place anytime a firearm changes hands permanently - this can be a dealer to a customer, a dealer to another dealer, a customer to a dealer, or a transaction entirely between private individuals.

While there is no LEGAL requirement for a shipment TO an FFL to originate from an FFL, there's no compulsion for a dealer to accept a firearms shipment from anyone, anywhere. If they choose to receive only from other FFL's for perceived liability reasons, or because they're just mean and greedy it doesn't matter - they don't HAVE to do it for you.

In the situation where the dealer is otherwise amenable to receiving a firearm for you, but is misinformed about the law in their ability to receive a shipment from anyone, maybe by showing them the QA section of their FFL green book you can convince them it's legal to receive from a private shipper anywhere in the US.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:50:31 PM EST

While there is no LEGAL requirement for a shipment TO an FFL to originate from an FFL, there's no compulsion for a dealer to accept a firearms shipment from anyone, anywhere. If they choose to receive only from other FFL's for perceived liability reasons, or because they're just mean and greedy it doesn't matter - they don't HAVE to do it for you.

Exactly. This has never been in doubt. We've been brainstorming ways to keep the original poster from being penalized by the receiving FFL.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 6:27:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 6:28:47 PM EST by Kaliburz]

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

While there is no LEGAL requirement for a shipment TO an FFL to originate from an FFL, there's no compulsion for a dealer to accept a firearms shipment from anyone, anywhere. If they choose to receive only from other FFL's for perceived liability reasons, or because they're just mean and greedy it doesn't matter - they don't HAVE to do it for you.

Exactly. This has never been in doubt. We've been brainstorming ways to keep the original poster from being penalized by the receiving FFL.



If this FFL set his/her OWN policy that way, so cover their a$$.... what can anyone do? (Especially if they have a sign on the store that says "We have the right to refuse service to anyone.")

I know of a dealer (auction dealer, a local one in the area) that doesn't care.. he makes you wait... Period. End of discussion. If you don't like, don't buy is his auction is his attitude (and he means everyone.) He's made people w/ carry permits wait AND other FFL dealers! And it's not just to have funds clear.....(some paid in cash/ have letter from bank.)
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 6:31:25 PM EST

If this FFL set his/her OWN policy that way, so cover their a$$.... what can anyone do?

Verify the FFL's policy before you begin a transaction with them. Act accordingly based on that.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 7:12:24 PM EST
Buying a gun or receiving a gun from another FFL does nothing to guarantee it's not stolen or a crime gun. There is no database dealers have access to check a gun's legal status.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 7:22:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By mantaur006:
Let me get this straight! I want to receive a shotgun from my brother-in-law in Florida. Can I have to have him ship it to me personally or do I have to go through an FFL in NJ? But if I do need an FFL holder, it's only one on my end.



loose firearm parts shipped in seperate containers could easily be windchime parts. and whose to say you didn't pick up that gun when you were there last time?

ian
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:31:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By ian187:

Originally Posted By mantaur006:
Let me get this straight! I want to receive a shotgun from my brother-in-law in Florida. Can I have to have him ship it to me personally or do I have to go through an FFL in NJ? But if I do need an FFL holder, it's only one on my end.



loose firearm parts shipped in seperate containers could easily be windchime parts. and whose to say you didn't pick up that gun when you were there last time?

ian



I was once told by an FFL that it would be ok to ship a Kimber as "gun parts" in two seperate packages, he said he did it all the time, etc etc because he didn't want to pay $50 at fedex to ship a handgun.

I ship it and two days later I get a VERY angry call from the recieving FFL, who just happened to be an ex-BATF agent. He's about one inch away from calling the local BATF office on me and having them bust my chops. He informs me that I am in violation of federal law and he never wants to see my name on another piece of mail that goes to his shop, EVER. I also have an angry email from the purchaser of the Kimber who asks me why I'm trying to put him in jail and all this other bullshit--Mr. FFL must have scared the living bejeesus out of the buyer too.

The only buying or selling transaction I've ever done online that went sour in any way. I don't plan on EVER selling a handgun to an out-of-state individual again, I just about got a new suppository installed curtesy of an ex-BATF agent the last time!
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 9:38:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 9:42:56 PM EST by Kaliburz]
Well, it's funny that the BATF does not require the sending and receiving be FFL's.

If ya think of it, (for example), if Joe Criminal steals something in the east coast, mails it to a 'legal buddy' somewhere legally (ie transfers to a FFL), how does the receiving FFL know it's stolen.

Don't they have to call on the serial number to check if it's "hot"? Or is that just a state requirement possibly.



So how did this 'false' requirement of the sender has to be an FFL started? Was it some kind of ruling in the past that's been overturned or no longer enforced? Or is it some insurance agency thought of?

It's nice to finally know the truth.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 1:50:40 AM EST

If ya think of it, (for example), if Joe Criminal steals something in the east coast, mails it to a 'legal buddy' somewhere legally (ie transfers to a FFL), how does the receiving FFL know it's stolen.

Don't they have to call on the serial number to check if it's "hot"? Or is that just a state requirement possibly.


Go back and read TommyBrown's post. There is no database and there is no guarantee when receiving from another dealer that the gun isn't stolen.



So how did this 'false' requirement of the sender has to be an FFL started? Was it some kind of ruling in the past that's been overturned or no longer enforced? Or is it some insurance agency thought of?

It's just done out of ignorance/stupidity and a sense of reduced liability. More often than not, it's done out of ignorance and stupidity.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 4:46:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By JC:
Um, your point is? When you send a firearm in to be repaired it is logged in, provided it is there 24hrs, and then logged out when it is taken out and shipped back directly to the sender.



Please share with us where the "24 hour" rule is in the regulations.

mark
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 4:51:47 AM EST
It would be easy for me to live with "I'm not sure so I'm going to play it safe". I understand protecting your interests in business. As much as I love firearms and love to learn about firearms, I don't understand the wise ass, know-it-all attitude I find frequently in gunshops. It might start out as ingorance, but it quickly converts to pride. I will assure you, if I prove my FFL dealer wrong he will send the rifle back.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 7:22:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2002 7:28:35 AM EST by Kaliburz]

Originally Posted By kkyle:
It would be easy for me to live with "I'm not sure so I'm going to play it safe". I understand protecting your interests in business. As much as I love firearms and love to learn about firearms, I don't understand the wise ass, know-it-all attitude I find frequently in gunshops. It might start out as ingorance, but it quickly converts to pride. I will assure you, if I prove my FFL dealer wrong he will send the rifle back.



Quite possibly true... ya prove him wrong he might not like that.


Quote by Jim_Dandy
Go back and read TommyBrown's post. There is no database and there is no guarantee when receiving from another dealer that the gun isn't stolen.



I figured that. Most owners don't even know their serial number and so when it is stolen, they can't report it. I recall my buddy calling the local PD to check SN's when someone came in to sell a gun. As said, it's not national or perfect, but it might be a state requirement (just in case it might be 'hot').
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 8:40:18 AM EST

Please share with us where the "24 hour" rule is in the regulations.

mark



See the link (FAQ I2)

www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#i2
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 1:53:41 PM EST
I think this one is the one you have to look at. The 'I' pertains to gunsmiths and E5 is in generals.



(E5) How much time does a dealer have to record acquisitions and dispositions of firearms in his or her "bound book"? [Back]

If commercial records are kept containing the required information, are available for inspection, and are separate from other commercial documents, dealers have 7 days from the time of receipt or disposition to record the receipt or disposition in the "bound book." Receipts not covered by these records must be entered in the "bound book" by the close of the next business day after the acquisition or purchase. If a disposition is made before the acquisition has been entered in the "bound book," the acquisition entry must be made at the same time as the disposition entry. [27 CFR 178.125( d)-( i)]

Top Top