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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/29/2002 8:16:03 AM EST
Here's a question for all those out there who know the FFL laws. I ordered a gun from the internet, paid by card. Before ordering, I got the FFL person lined up. Gun's finally arrived, but he's not giving it to me until a signed copy of the seller's FFL is sent. The seller is saying he doesn't have to send a signed copy of his FFL and that the receiving FFL is full of S--t. Me sitting here between two adamant people saying they're right. What's the answer?
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:22:15 AM EST
Your dealer is correct. An INKED (no fax or photocopy) copy must be sent. Go to the ATF website, find the "law", inform the other dealer. HTH
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:29:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 8:32:46 AM EST by Kaliburz]
I'm not a FFL holder, but I handle enough stuff to know this (and a buddy is an FFL holder).

If you are transfering from one FFL to another FFL, the receiving FFL and sending FFL must excahange copies. Most out of state sales are handled this way. Seller goes to FFL in his state to send to buyer's FFL.

Okay, granted, there is one little thing. It says that Firearms must be received by a FFL if it is outside your state (state laws will differ, ie California). Some people who sell are not FFL holders, yet they ship to FFL's since the laws says. But, some dealers do not like receiving firearms out of state from non FFL dealers.... even though it is legal. All they need is a copy of their Drivers Licene/ID name to log into 'the book'. If I recall, it is more of a personal choice not to receive firearms in the mail from non FFL holders for transfer.

Edit-
If the sending person is an FFL, WTF.... why didn't he/she send a copy? An original signature is required on the 'file copy' FFL. That mean an original signature NOT in black, something like BLUE ink... so as long as you can tell it was an original signature.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:39:41 AM EST

Your dealer is correct. An INKED (no fax or photocopy) copy must be sent. Go to the ATF website, find the "law", inform the other dealer.

Nooooooooooooo. The seller/sender doesn't have to supply a copy of his FFL to the buyer/recipient (if you disagree, please cite a law). However, as a matter of policy, some FFL holders require a copy of a license. This is NOT the law, only their individual business practice. You should have verified this prior to buying the gun, but hindsight is always 20/20. I would say to make the seller understand that you have a shit-for-brains FFL holder who won't budge. He shouldn't have a problem with that; he wants to complete the sale and you want your gun.

drjarhead and I went throught this same bullshit last year with some asshole FFL holder in Wisconsin. We wound up getting the BATF involved and his "policy" changed pretty quick.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:43:17 AM EST
Sending dealer now saying WTF, since you are a good customer I'll send my signed FFL. Still holds he is right. He's in NY, I'm in Texas. Not mentioning names because his reputation has been nothing but good on this website.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:54:56 AM EST
I am sick of this happening to sellers. Thats why I make it clear to everyone I sell to that I will not be sending them FFL information. I am tired of the $30 going to an FFL holder when it should be in the buyer and sellers pocket. If they insist, I make them cover the costs on my end.

Again - The BUYER has to provode and FFL, NOT the Seller!!!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:03:18 PM EST
Doh!! Thanks for setting the record straight. Guess some cali ffl's made me jump through some xtra hoops.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:53:59 PM EST
OKay....so a buyer (non FFL holder) has to have the receiving (their transfer dealer) dealer send and FFL to the sender. But how does the receiving FFL dealer 'log' the item in then w/out an FFL? As I said, just lists a name and drivers licence number of the sender/owner???

The way it was explained to me, when an item is shipped outside the state, the recipiant has to be a FFL holder. No if ands or buts (right?)
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:55:29 PM EST
The more I read this the more madder I get. This damned FFL holder was very insulting. Told me he was going to ship it back freight due if he didn't get the signed FFL from the seller. He also told me he was calling the BATF and said I should if I didn't think he was right. Anybody know exactly where on the ATF webpage I can find the passage that can make this a--hole eat crow( of course after I get the rifle!). I've emailed ATF, but it might take 3 yrs. to get the answer. Man did I get sucked into this-live and learn.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:58:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 2:14:56 PM EST by Kaliburz]
(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]


www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm


(looking for more stuff....will edit)
B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's own state? [Back]


A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]


(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier? [Back]


A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be
used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract
carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]



Well, I was looking around and really couldn't find anything that stated other wise. I'm guessing that FFL just require that because they want to cover their bacon....



Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:17:17 PM EST
The only rule I can find that pertains is F8."Verification must be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by the other means the transferor deems necessary." Nowhere can I find a rule that states the seller has to provide anything.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:18:56 PM EST

The more I read this the more madder I get. This damned FFL holder was very insulting. Told me he was going to ship it back freight due if he didn't get the signed FFL from the seller. He also told me he was calling the BATF and said I should if I didn't think he was right. Anybody know exactly where on the ATF webpage I can find the passage that can make this a--hole eat crow( of course after I get the rifle!). I've emailed ATF, but it might take 3 yrs. to get the answer. Man did I get sucked into this-live and learn.

Why are you emailing the BATF? Call the closest field office and speak to an inspector. Explain the situation, tell the inspector how this FFL agreed to receive the rifle and is now holding it hostage. Call his bluff. He told you to call the BATF because he thinks you're chicken. The same God-damned thing happened last year to drjarhead and me. The asshole in Wisconsin said the same bullshit about calling the BATF. Well, he was surprised to say the least when the BATF got ahold of him and told him to transfer the firearm or hand it back to me ASAP.

Don't email the BATF, CALL the closest field office.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:20:37 PM EST
Thanks Kaliburz. Looks like you need a lawyer to read this crap. I'm afraid asking the ATF is like asking the IRS for help. Maybe not-we'll see.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:21:48 PM EST
The receiving dealer is the only one required to provide an FFL Copy. It is common courtesy to swap them and I can not see why your sending dealer would not want to do this even though legally he is correct.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:29:21 PM EST
Jim_Dandy-started to do that, I'll think I will tomorrow.
TommyBrown- The seller finally agreed to do just that. I just am the type of individual that doesn't like to get his ass chewed out from both sides. The receiving FFL was the one that blindsided me. I won't let this go without some satisfaction, so I must have the correct info. before I blast his ass.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 12:45:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
But how does the receiving FFL dealer 'log' the item in then w/out an FFL? As I said, just lists a name and drivers licence number of the sender/owner???



There are couple things one can use:

1) FFL name/FFL# (2 digit set and last 5 digits)
2) FFL name/FFL address
3) buyers name/# on 4473
4) some misc ones that do not matter for the most part

For transfer from FFL, you need the FFL name and FFL# or FFL address.

Actually pretty simple.

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