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Posted: 5/27/2008 9:50:11 PM EDT
I have heard two first hand accounts of a dealer telling me that it is ok to have my info engraved on the trigger gaurd.  I think that this would be an ideal setup for me if it is indeed legal.  Any firsthand experience? Thanks  
Link Posted: 5/27/2008 10:31:18 PM EDT
No personal experience, but it is perfectly legal.
Link Posted: 5/27/2008 11:32:39 PM EDT
One of the local guys claims to have a letter from ATF saying it's ok.

I have no reason to doubt him.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 3:37:11 AM EDT
It is a removable part of the lower.. How could that possibly be legal???
UNDER the TRIGGER GUARD yes.. That is how mine are done..
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 4:27:33 AM EDT

Quoted:
One of the local guys claims to have a letter from ATF saying it's ok.

I have no reason to doubt him.




Other than the fact that his claim directly violates the Federal Regulations on the subject.

Link Posted: 5/28/2008 4:28:53 AM EDT
yeah, I always thought it had to be on the receiver itself and easily seen without having to remove any part (hence why engraving on the grip shelf is a no-no. If you have one of those new fangled lowers with an integral trigger guard, I'd say that's OK. Otherwise, you've engraved a removeable part.

I engraved mine on the underside of the receiver where the cutout for the trigger is. Name on one side of the trigger, Town and State on the other side. Darken the finish, and it pretty much disappears.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 4:49:05 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
One of the local guys claims to have a letter from ATF saying it's ok.

I have no reason to doubt him.




Other than the fact that his claim directly violates the Federal Regulations on the subject.



I trust him 100%.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 4:51:51 AM EDT
I don't believe there is any written law which precludes one from placing markings on a portion of the receiver which can be removed. But common sense dictates that one should not engrave on that portion, but until ATF rules to the contrary, it does technically comply, IMO.

Do I want to be a test dummy and challenge it, no.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 5:44:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 5:57:41 AM EDT
Forgive my ignorance ahead of time. It seems 2 different types of idnetification are being discussed one is the manufacturer marking and the other is personal info.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 6:07:11 AM EDT

Quoted:
Forgive my ignorance ahead of time. It seems 2 different types of idnetification are being discussed one is the manufacturer marking and the other is personal info.


If you submit a Form 1 (an application to make a firearm), you become the manufacturer and must engrave the receiver with your information.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 6:17:12 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
Forgive my ignorance ahead of time. It seems 2 different types of idnetification are being discussed one is the manufacturer marking and the other is personal info.


If you submit a Form 1 (an application to make a firearm), you become the manufacturer and must engrave the receiver with your information.

NM I misread the whole subject. DUH on me
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 8:40:34 AM EDT

Quoted:
I don't believe there is any written law which precludes one from placing markings on a portion of the receiver which can be removed. But common sense dictates that one should not engrave on that portion, but until ATF rules to the contrary, it does technically comply, IMO.

Do I want to be a test dummy and challenge it, no.


Uh, the trigger guard isn't part of the receiver; it's the trigger guard.

Calling it "a removable part of the receiver" doesn't change that fact.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 8:41:38 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
One of the local guys claims to have a letter from ATF saying it's ok.

I have no reason to doubt him.




Other than the fact that his claim directly violates the Federal Regulations on the subject.



I trust him 100%.


That's nice, but he's still wrong.

See Tony_k's post for the straight 411, as usual.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 9:38:01 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
One of the local guys claims to have a letter from ATF saying it's ok.

I have no reason to doubt him.




Other than the fact that his claim directly violates the Federal Regulations on the subject.



I trust him 100%.


That's nice, but he's still wrong.

See Tony_k's post for the straight 411, as usual.


Well, he's doing it commercially.

Tony posts no bull, ever.

BUT, ATF regularly speaks from both ends.

Besides, a barrel is just as removable, actually easier to remove.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 10:40:03 AM EDT

Quoted:
Besides, a barrel is just as removable, actually easier to remove.

But the barrel is specifically spelled out in the text of the law.

The maker must mark either the receiver, frame, or barrel.  The trigger guard is none of these.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 11:12:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 11:22:35 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
Besides, a barrel is just as removable, actually easier to remove.

But the barrel is specifically spelled out in the text of the law.

The maker must mark either the receiver, frame, or barrel.  The trigger guard is none of these.
y

Yeah I get it.

But when a trusted friend says he has a letter from ATF, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 6:04:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 6:17:36 PM EDT
Wow.

It's already been established that a manufacturer can get a variance from ATF saying they can use an alternate marking method.  So the picture of the Beretta demonstrates... that a manufacturer can get a variance.

The law still says barrel, frame, or receiver.  My money says if the ATF won't let you mark the receiver under the pistol grip, they're not going to let you mark the trigger guard, ejection port cover, or sling swivel screw, either.

Even if the ATF gives you a letter, you're still not in the clear.  Cavarms had a letter saying they could mold receiver halves off site, and weld them together at their licensed location.  Then, they raided them, took all their stuff, and said they couldn't really do that after all...and I think we've all seen examples of two people writing letters, and getting two answers to the same question.  So just keep writing letters until you get the answer you want.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 7:19:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 11:22:00 PM EDT
Still somewhat on topic, but...

I was going to mark an MP5 on the area around the rear take-down pic, under the grip-frame.  I was told that since to tools are needed to reveal this, it is OK.  I know at least one major mfgr that does the same.
Link Posted: 5/29/2008 12:57:21 AM EDT
You could engrave on the trigger guard if you used a billet lower which has the trigger guard machined integrally with the rest of the receiver.
Link Posted: 5/29/2008 1:02:17 AM EDT
On the bottom of the barrel seems like a good place.  That's where the import markings on my SKS are located.  Putting the markings on an AR upper receiver seems like a good idea, provided it is legal.  

Link Posted: 5/29/2008 1:51:35 AM EDT

Quoted:
Still somewhat on topic, but...

I was going to mark an MP5 on the area around the rear take-down pic, under the grip-frame.  I was told that since to tools are needed to reveal this, it is OK.  I know at least one major mfgr that does the same.


But the letter posted above contradicts that.

Of course, many of us know that Vector Arms built a bunch of HK clone SBR's exactly that way.

ETA: Kindly see my previous point about ATF speaking from both ends...
Link Posted: 5/29/2008 4:01:18 AM EDT

Quoted:
One of the local guys claims to have a letter from ATF saying it's ok.

I have no reason to doubt him.


BATFE has been known to issue incorrect opininons and still hold you responsible for their errors
Link Posted: 5/29/2008 11:41:00 AM EDT
My dealer also has the letter that now says engraving the TG is acceptable.

That being said I had my latest SBR engraved in the magwell area.


Link Posted: 5/29/2008 4:39:49 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wow.

It's already been established that a manufacturer can get a variance from ATF saying they can use an alternate marking method.  So the picture of the Beretta demonstrates... that a manufacturer can get a variance.

The law still says barrel, frame, or receiver.  My money says if the ATF won't let you mark the receiver under the pistol grip, they're not going to let you mark the trigger guard, ejection port cover, or sling swivel screw, either.

Even if the ATF gives you a letter, you're still not in the clear.  Cavarms had a letter saying they could mold receiver halves off site, and weld them together at their licensed location.  Then, they raided them, took all their stuff, and said they couldn't really do that after all...and I think we've all seen examples of two people writing letters, and getting two answers to the same question.  So just keep writing letters until you get the answer you want.


Ok, you win. Anything new in the NFA realm is taboo and illegal. I post that you can engrave a trigger guard, have an ATF letter to back it up and its still not not enough?  


Hooked on phonics didn't work for me, but I don't see anything about trigger guards in that letter (IBTE = In before the edit).



Or write a letter, like you probably will, for further internet grandstanding.


Negatron.  Didn't work for Akins, or Cavarms, either.  Good on you.  You have a letter.  With much of the NFA stuff, you just have to find your own comfort level and go with it.  Glad you found yours.  I don't find it to be a big deal to engrave the receiver.  

i29.tinypic.com/1qkeu9.jpg
Link Posted: 5/30/2008 1:39:38 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wow.

It's already been established that a manufacturer can get a variance from ATF saying they can use an alternate marking method.  So the picture of the Beretta demonstrates... that a manufacturer can get a variance.

The law still says barrel, frame, or receiver.  My money says if the ATF won't let you mark the receiver under the pistol grip, they're not going to let you mark the trigger guard, ejection port cover, or sling swivel screw, either.

Even if the ATF gives you a letter, you're still not in the clear.  Cavarms had a letter saying they could mold receiver halves off site, and weld them together at their licensed location.  Then, they raided them, took all their stuff, and said they couldn't really do that after all...and I think we've all seen examples of two people writing letters, and getting two answers to the same question.  So just keep writing letters until you get the answer you want.


Ok, you win. Anything new in the NFA realm is taboo and illegal. I post that you can engrave a trigger guard, have an ATF letter to back it up and its still not not enough?  


Hooked on phonics didn't work for me, but I don't see anything about trigger guards in that letter (IBTE = In before the edit).



Or write a letter, like you probably will, for further internet grandstanding.


Negatron.  Didn't work for Akins, or Cavarms, either.  Good on you.  You have a letter.  With much of the NFA stuff, you just have to find your own comfort level and go with it.  Glad you found yours.  I don't find it to be a big deal to engrave the receiver.  

i29.tinypic.com/1qkeu9.jpg


Part in red is clearly true...

But here it is again, for those of you in the cheap seats:



ETA:  Also note the conspicuous use of "eg." rather than "ie."
Link Posted: 5/30/2008 6:26:23 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wow.

It's already been established that a manufacturer can get a variance from ATF saying they can use an alternate marking method.  So the picture of the Beretta demonstrates... that a manufacturer can get a variance.

The law still says barrel, frame, or receiver.  My money says if the ATF won't let you mark the receiver under the pistol grip, they're not going to let you mark the trigger guard, ejection port cover, or sling swivel screw, either.

Even if the ATF gives you a letter, you're still not in the clear.  Cavarms had a letter saying they could mold receiver halves off site, and weld them together at their licensed location.  Then, they raided them, took all their stuff, and said they couldn't really do that after all...and I think we've all seen examples of two people writing letters, and getting two answers to the same question.  So just keep writing letters until you get the answer you want.


Ok, you win. Anything new in the NFA realm is taboo and illegal. I post that you can engrave a trigger guard, have an ATF letter to back it up and its still not not enough?  


Hooked on phonics didn't work for me, but I don't see anything about trigger guards in that letter (IBTE = In before the edit).



Or write a letter, like you probably will, for further internet grandstanding.


Negatron.  Didn't work for Akins, or Cavarms, either.  Good on you.  You have a letter.  With much of the NFA stuff, you just have to find your own comfort level and go with it.  Glad you found yours.  I don't find it to be a big deal to engrave the receiver.  

i29.tinypic.com/1qkeu9.jpg


Part in red is clearly true...

But here it is again, for those of you in the cheap seats:

img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/nationwide/letter.jpg

ETA:  Also note the conspicuous use of "eg." rather than "ie."


And you take from that tidbit that it is now acceptable to put these markings on the trigger guard?

I believe the word for that is "FAIL."

See 27 CFR 479.102 for the actual text of the regulations.  In fact, allow me to save you the trouble.  See below:


§ 479.102   How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;

(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and

(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).

(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.


(The above was copied from the Federal GPO website, i.e. directly from the Feds.)

A plain English reading of this section, particularly the part in red, clearly shows that the trigger guard is NOT an acceptable location.

The part in blue is the only possible out for this, and it is only on a case-by-case basis.

If you think the posted letter allows NFA markings on the trigger guard, you're sorely mistaken.
Link Posted: 5/30/2008 4:37:01 PM EDT

Quoted:

If you think the posted letter allows NFA markings on the trigger guard, you're sorely mistaken.


There is no such thing as "NFA markings".

There is simply required manufacturer's markings.

The ATF letter says clearly, in English, the only required marking on the receiver is the serial number.

Of course, I understand plainly that ATF letters apply only the the individual to whom they are addressed, but the letter reads how it reads.
Link Posted: 5/30/2008 5:11:38 PM EDT

Quoted:
The ATF letter says clearly, in English, the only required marking on the receiver is the serial number.



Right, and the US Code says clearly, in English, that all other required markings must be on the "frame, receiver or barrel".

The trigger guard is not the "frame, receiver or barrel".

I don't know if you are being intentionally obstinate, or really don't understand, but you are clearly wrong. The letter that has been posted does not reference the "trigger guard" at all, and it is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Link Posted: 5/30/2008 5:18:13 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
The ATF letter says clearly, in English, the only required marking on the receiver is the serial number.



Right, and the US Code says clearly, in English, that all other required markings must be on the "frame, receiver or barrel".

The trigger guard is not the "frame, receiver or barrel".

I don't know if you are being intentionally obstinate, or really don't understand, but you are clearly wrong. The letter that has been posted does not reference the "trigger guard" at all, and it is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


The Second Amendment also says "shall not be infringed", but we are past that discussion are we not?

The ATF letter says "eg.", not "ie." with regards to placing of other markings.

We can argue in cute little circles all night if you like.  My relief will be in after 2100
Link Posted: 5/30/2008 5:47:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/31/2008 1:50:44 AM EDT

Quoted:
The ATF letter says "eg.", not "ie." with regards to placing of other markings.


i.e.  
abbr. Latin
id est; that is

e.g.
abbr. Latin
exempli gratia; for example

Even when we bust out the pocket protectors, and use Latin, I can't see that 'i.e.' vs. 'e.g.' changes anything.  They merely referenced the other possible places the manufacturers markings, sometimes referred to as 'NFA markings', could go, as referenced in the CFR.
Link Posted: 5/31/2008 2:01:29 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
The ATF letter says "eg.", not "ie." with regards to placing of other markings.


i.e.  
abbr. Latin
id est; that is

e.g.
abbr. Latin
exempli gratia; for example

Even when we bust out the pocket protectors, and use Latin, I can't see that 'i.e.' vs. 'e.g.' changes anything.  They merely referenced the other possible places the manufacturers markings, sometimes referred to as 'NFA markings', could go, as referenced in the CFR.


Nor would I expect you to

Link Posted: 6/1/2008 9:41:24 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

If you think the posted letter allows NFA markings on the trigger guard, you're sorely mistaken.


There is no such thing as "NFA markings".

There is simply required manufacturer's markings.

The ATF letter says clearly, in English, the only required marking on the receiver is the serial number.

Of course, I understand plainly that ATF letters apply only the the individual to whom they are addressed, but the letter reads how it reads.


What do you think is spelled out, in plain English, in the regulations I posted?

Since it apparently goes over your head, "NFA markings" in my post refers to the markings required on NFA weapons, spelled out in the Federal regulations.  I assumed that you'd have at least reasonable intelligence and could "connect the dots" on that simple statement.  Since I was mistaken, "NFA markings" refers to the required serial number and also the manufacturer or maker's name, city, and state.

The regulations spell out, again in plain English, that the serial number has to be on the receiver and the other markings have to be on the receiver, frame, or barrel.  Period.

Nothing in that letter states anything to the contrary.

And even if it did, it doesn't matter as it isn't addressed to you and is therefore completely meaningless.

Link Posted: 6/1/2008 10:52:10 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

If you think the posted letter allows NFA markings on the trigger guard, you're sorely mistaken.


There is no such thing as "NFA markings".

There is simply required manufacturer's markings.

The ATF letter says clearly, in English, the only required marking on the receiver is the serial number.

Of course, I understand plainly that ATF letters apply only the the individual to whom they are addressed, but the letter reads how it reads.


What do you think is spelled out, in plain English, in the regulations I posted?

Since it apparently goes over your head, "NFA markings" in my post refers to the markings required on NFA weapons, spelled out in the Federal regulations.  I assumed that you'd have at least reasonable intelligence and could "connect the dots" on that simple statement.  Since I was mistaken, "NFA markings" refers to the required serial number and also the manufacturer or maker's name, city, and state.

The regulations spell out, again in plain English, that the serial number has to be on the receiver and the other markings have to be on the receiver, frame, or barrel.  Period.

Nothing in that letter states anything to the contrary.

And even if it did, it doesn't matter as it isn't addressed to you and is therefore completely meaningless.



So... long story short... you're butt hurt because our friend karma, is trying to do something different that goes against the fabled and time honored traditions of the NFA community.

How is that for connecting the dots?
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 11:06:14 AM EDT

Quoted:
So... long story short... you're butt hurt because our friend karma, is trying to do something different that goes against the fabled and time honored traditions of the NFA community.

How is that for connecting the dots?



Nobody is "butthurt" (except maybe you?)

You are not "trying to do something different", you are suggesting something that is obviously incorrect and illegal upon even the most basic examination of the relevant laws and regulations.
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 11:47:12 AM EDT
Here are some dots to connect:  If all you have left are insults, you should go play somewhere else..
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 1:12:20 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
So... long story short... you're butt hurt because our friend karma, is trying to do something different that goes against the fabled and time honored traditions of the NFA community.

How is that for connecting the dots?



Nobody is "butthurt" (except maybe you?)

You are not "trying to do something different", you are suggesting something that is obviously incorrect and illegal upon even the most basic examination of the relevant laws and regulations.


Hmmm.... think I'll go with ATF on this one.
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 1:17:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 7:15:31 AM EDT
Let's Cool off and take a look at what we know...

The markings needed on the firearm are:
1) Serial Number
2) Maker's Name
3) Maker's City
4) Maker's State
5) Caliber

The ATF letter simply stated that all required markings must be conspicuously visible and that the serial number is the only marking that MUST be placed on the reciever.
The letter DID NOT say that the other required information could be placed anywhere else... only that they need not be on the reciever.

Where the other markings are allowed to be located is dictated in 27 CFR 479.102 as the frame, receiver, or barrel.
The ATF letter just reaffirms they do not need to be on the reciever.

Nowhere is trigger guard defined or implicated. Unless you confidently believe the trigger guard to be "part of the reciever" it should not have any required markigns on it.
The trigger guard, being removable and mutually exclusive from the technical specifics of the firearm, is as much a part of the reciever as the stock or pistol grip.
In other words, it's not part of the reciever, IMO. You maybe looking for something that just isn't there.

Nowhere in that ATF letter do I interpret it as saying, "Required markings (aside from the serial number) are acceptable on the trigger guard."
However, your letter does not disquilify the term trigger guard either. But 27 CFR 479.102  doesn't mention trigger guard either and the ATF letter holds less merit IMO.
However it's your gamble, not mine. Best of luck to you.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 10:57:42 AM EDT
I don't know if this helps anyone, but I called the ATF to ask this specific question about the legality of engraving on the trigger guard. The two different people I initially spoke with (the lady who answered the phone, and Jason Freshauer who is an examiner I believe) were unsure and I was eventually transferred to the Firearms Technical Branch. The man I spoke with there named Max referenced the barrel/frame/receiver rule and said that the trigger guard is not acceptable.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 11:42:08 AM EDT
From this thread I conclude nobody has actually read 479.102 yet. No surprise.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 3:58:42 PM EDT

Quoted:
From this thread I conclude nobody has actually read 479.102 yet. No surprise.


I've not only read them, I posted a copy of them in this thread, taken directly from a website published by the Federal Government.

Apparently that makes me "butthurt" to some of the idiots participating in this thread.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 4:53:31 PM EDT

Quoted:
Let's Cool off and take a look at what we know...

The markings needed on the firearm are:
1) Serial Number
2) Maker's Name
3) Maker's City
4) Maker's State
5) Caliber

The ATF letter simply stated that all required markings must be conspicuously visible and that the serial number is the only marking that MUST be placed on the reciever.
The letter DID NOT say that the other required information could be placed anywhere else... only that they need not be on the reciever.

Where the other markings are allowed to be located is dictated in 27 CFR 479.102 as the frame, receiver, or barrel.
The ATF letter just reaffirms they do not need to be on the reciever.

Nowhere is trigger guard defined or implicated. Unless you confidently believe the trigger guard to be "part of the reciever" it should not have any required markigns on it.
The trigger guard, being removable and mutually exclusive from the technical specifics of the firearm, is as much a part of the reciever as the stock or pistol grip.
In other words, it's not part of the reciever, IMO. You maybe looking for something that just isn't there.

Nowhere in that ATF letter do I interpret it as saying, "Required markings (aside from the serial number) are acceptable on the trigger guard."
However, your letter does not disquilify the term trigger guard either. But 27 CFR 479.102  doesn't mention trigger guard either and the ATF letter holds less merit IMO.
However it's your gamble, not mine. Best of luck to you.

That's exactly the way I see it. Unless you have a letter from the BATFE specifically stating that "Engraving the manufacturer's name and address on an AR-15's removable trigger guard is perfectly acceptible" then I wouldn't do it. Actually I wouldn't even do it then unless the letter was specifically addressed to me but then again, I don't have any problem with just putting the markings on the front of the mag well. I don't know why everybody works so hard at trying to "hide" them?
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 5:10:13 PM EDT

Quoted:

I don't know why everybody works so hard at trying to "hide" them?


Some folks are concerned about resale value of their SBR'd lower
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 8:21:48 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

I don't know why everybody works so hard at trying to "hide" them?


Some folks are concerned about resale value of their SBR'd lower


Then those folks should buy a "factory" SBR and be done with it.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 6:12:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 6:54:11 PM EDT
Every pistol I own besides my M&P 40 is marked on the frame, in fact I believe the
M&P 40 is the first pistol I have owned that was marked on the slide other than the
billboard stamping on the side that is common.
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