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Posted: 10/13/2008 2:04:07 PM EST
See all these high dollar costumes on here, but not so much armor and med kits. Fat lot of good the fancy knives and packs and guns going to do you when you have a sucking chest wound because you didn't have a plate, or you bleed out from an extremity wound when you didn't have a pressure bandage. Something to think about.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 2:10:01 PM EST
look again troll. you'll see ats med pouches, osoe med pouches, the hsgi bleeder pouch, esstac med-rats, etc. almost every rig that has been posted recently has one. also there is a nice long sticky at the top of the forum dedicated to med pouches.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 2:20:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2008 2:22:10 PM EST by Custom-X_Sponjah]

Originally Posted By calicojack:
look again troll. you'll see ats med pouches, osoe med pouches, the hsgi bleeder pouch, esstac med-rats, etc. almost every rig that has been posted recently has one. also there is a nice long sticky at the top of the forum dedicated to med pouches.


You mean Gargoyle..

But I beleive he's talking about the pics of the chest rigs, and low profile rigs..
I see a lot of Cheaper than Dirt plate carriers with no armor in em.

Just some people have their priorities straight, and some do not..

CXS

Link Posted: 10/13/2008 2:31:06 PM EST
Well, just cause a guy is running a el cheapo plate carrier and doesn't have armor in does not mean he's a loser. A plate carrier set up with MOLLE webbing can make a great platform for gear. I personally preffer it over a chest rig any day. But to each his own.

Also, I am huge believer in IFAK or medic packs. But lately, just about every thread I have seen seems to me that folks are taking first aid serious.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 2:38:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By calicojack:
look again troll. you'll see ats med pouches, osoe med pouches, the hsgi bleeder pouch, esstac med-rats, etc. almost every rig that has been posted recently has one. also there is a nice long sticky at the top of the forum dedicated to med pouches.


Damn dude...apparantly my message is aimed at those who aren't reading stickies because I continue to see hero pics without the shit. I see pics of rifle classes people pay thousands to attend and they don't roll with plates. I'd think if I were to pay that amount of money I'd train like I'd fight.

Link Posted: 10/13/2008 2:44:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
I see pics of rifle classes people pay thousands to attend and they don't roll with plates. I'd think if I were to pay that amount of money I'd train like I'd fight.




Very fair and true statement.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 2:48:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:

Originally Posted By calicojack:
look again troll. you'll see ats med pouches, osoe med pouches, the hsgi bleeder pouch, esstac med-rats, etc. almost every rig that has been posted recently has one. also there is a nice long sticky at the top of the forum dedicated to med pouches.


Damn dude...apparantly my message is aimed at those who aren't reading stickies because I continue to see hero pics without the shit. I see pics of rifle classes people pay thousands to attend and they don't roll with plates. I'd think if I were to pay that amount of money I'd train like I'd fight.



that's my policy too. it does no good to run yourself in circles and not do it right. there again, i've yet to attend a serious rifle course. still building up my supply of ammo so that i can. If yeager wasn't going to be there, i'd love to go to the Tactical Response Ak Operator's class. it's around 10k rifle rounds and i think they said something like 2k pistol rounds. i'm hoping it was a misprint, but i'd still love to go. they had shit blowing up around them and what not. but that's another topic. I get you, but i think it was slightly mis-timed.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 3:06:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By calicojack:

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:

Originally Posted By calicojack:
look again troll. you'll see ats med pouches, osoe med pouches, the hsgi bleeder pouch, esstac med-rats, etc. almost every rig that has been posted recently has one. also there is a nice long sticky at the top of the forum dedicated to med pouches.


Damn dude...apparantly my message is aimed at those who aren't reading stickies because I continue to see hero pics without the shit. I see pics of rifle classes people pay thousands to attend and they don't roll with plates. I'd think if I were to pay that amount of money I'd train like I'd fight.



that's my policy too. it does no good to run yourself in circles and not do it right. there again, i've yet to attend a serious rifle course. still building up my supply of ammo so that i can. If yeager wasn't going to be there, i'd love to go to the Tactical Response Ak Operator's class. it's around 10k rifle rounds and i think they said something like 2k pistol rounds. i'm hoping it was a misprint, but i'd still love to go. they had shit blowing up around them and what not. but that's another topic. I get you, but i think it was slightly mis-timed.


I'm with you on the Yeager issue, got ugly a while back. However, I don't buy the "mis-timed" statement. I think you flew out of the gate without being astute enough to see I am not a troll, but in fact that I've been a member of this site for the past 7 years. (Paying member for all but 2 years and not once banned). I've got near 3000 more posts than you and you aren't even a paying member. That makes for a small license to be labeling people trolls just because you didn't appreciate the rhetoric of a post.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 3:09:56 PM EST
No money for plates yet so if the S goes down tomorrow I do train like I'll fight. Those plates, although very necessary are expensive and we can't all afford them yet. As for the med kits I totally agree. If you have the ability to take a life you must also have the ability to save a life. Which mean the proper training and supplies.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 3:59:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 4:12:50 PM EST
I don't own any plates. Every time I have ever really needed them, they've been issued to me.

Now there is no excuse for not having some kind of med kit/IFAK.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 4:27:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:

I'm with you on the Yeager issue, got ugly a while back. However, I don't buy the "mis-timed" statement. I think you flew out of the gate without being astute enough to see I am not a troll, but in fact that I've been a member of this site for the past 7 years. (Paying member for all but 2 years and not once banned). I've got near 3000 more posts than you and you aren't even a paying member. That makes for a small license to be labeling people trolls just because you didn't appreciate the rhetoric of a post.


what i meant about mis-timed; is you are a day late and about two months short. there are a few of us that have been making a big push in posting general knowledge on this topic. we are aware that va-gunnut's sub-class of folks are out there, and with their lack of knowledge could end up severely injuring themselves or others without the proper fore-thought towards their kit.

I appologize for calling you a troll. obviously because you are a paying member you are NOT that type person; and should be raised to exalted status for being such.

back on topic. if you have a firearm, in some form or fashion, you should be prepared to be able to start treating a gsw. even if that only entails packing the wound, slowing/stopping the bleeding and calling 911.

On the other hand. Joe blow goes out and buys a full kit. $1000+ ar, fully packed out ifak, and does NOT get the training to use the ifak; he runs the risk of doing more harm than good. IMO; without at least basic training on how to use the kits contents... they should probably save their money till they get the training. again, IMO, you buy a gun, you NEED to know how to deal with the mishappenings that can happen.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 4:54:58 PM EST
Did I hear some one say sucking chest wound?


two separate matching first lines with full IFAKS


IFAKS in the bobs (black case with red letters)

Armor and Interceptor style lvl 3 soft armor


I can do every thing but run IVs, The wife has taken a tactical med course with me, I live on a street with two nurses and have a doctor, and several skilled people on my contact list (I had no one for a long time and really had to work to find and make friends with some one who was likable - liked me - and knew their shit.) Medical and Armor are top priority force multipliers. So are comms and a decent resupply stock pile.

All that should come after you have the basic skills to USE WHAT YOU HAVE.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 4:57:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:

Originally Posted By calicojack:

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:

Originally Posted By calicojack:
look again troll. you'll see ats med pouches, osoe med pouches, the hsgi bleeder pouch, esstac med-rats, etc. almost every rig that has been posted recently has one. also there is a nice long sticky at the top of the forum dedicated to med pouches.


Damn dude...apparantly my message is aimed at those who aren't reading stickies because I continue to see hero pics without the shit. I see pics of rifle classes people pay thousands to attend and they don't roll with plates. I'd think if I were to pay that amount of money I'd train like I'd fight.



that's my policy too. it does no good to run yourself in circles and not do it right. there again, i've yet to attend a serious rifle course. still building up my supply of ammo so that i can. If yeager wasn't going to be there, i'd love to go to the Tactical Response Ak Operator's class. it's around 10k rifle rounds and i think they said something like 2k pistol rounds. i'm hoping it was a misprint, but i'd still love to go. they had shit blowing up around them and what not. but that's another topic. I get you, but i think it was slightly mis-timed.


I'm with you on the Yeager issue, got ugly a while back. However, I don't buy the "mis-timed" statement. I think you flew out of the gate without being astute enough to see I am not a troll, but in fact that I've been a member of this site for the past 7 years. (Paying member for all but 2 years and not once banned). I've got near 3000 more posts than you and you aren't even a paying member. That makes for a small license to be labeling people trolls just because you didn't appreciate the rhetoric of a post.


Concur, as gargoyle has been around and is worth his salt.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 4:34:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 5:12:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
See all these high dollar costumes on here, but not so much armor and med kits. Fat lot of good the fancy knives and packs and guns going to do you when you have a sucking chest wound because you didn't have a plate, or you bleed out from an extremity wound when you didn't have a pressure bandage. Something to think about.


I always figured most of the guys here were range guys, not overseas guys.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 5:15:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2008 5:18:04 AM EST by jtb0311]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
While I agree with the root cause of you making this thread, there may have been a better way of getting your point across.

There are going to be 3 types of people when it comes this issue. The first group could care less about any of this kind of thing. Most will never have any of this gear, and they have no desire to obtain it. Normally these will be the people that could care less about getting any kind of formal training.

The second type will be people that do desire the gear, plates/med kits included and are just gaining the knowledge and funding to aquire this stuff. They know they need it and are working on it.


The third are the ones that do have a lot of gear, may or may not train, but just lack the basic knowledge on why some other things should be added to their list of wants. These are the people that you need to try and reach. An overly aggressive post is not the best way to reach these people IMO.


Now there is a sub-group of people that do have some gear, and have a beginning knowledge of what kind of gear should be added in the future. A lot of these people alos have no formal training on the use of their rifles/pistols. IMO their money would be best spent on training, with a minimal amount put out for gear. Something basic enough to train with, but not so much that training is now out of reach.


Agreed. I think a lot of people have way too much gear.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 8:36:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
See all these high dollar costumes on here, but not so much armor and med kits. Fat lot of good the fancy knives and packs and guns going to do you when you have a sucking chest wound because you didn't have a plate, or you bleed out from an extremity wound when you didn't have a pressure bandage. Something to think about.


Considering your background.... I know where your coming from.


[Samuel L. Jackson]MF'in plate carrier, with MF'in plates, being used in a MF'in 98+ deg hot MF'in training class![/Samuel L. Jackson]

img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Training/Magpul%20Advanced%20Carbine/Day2-17.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Training/Magpul%20Advanced%20Carbine/Day2-8.jpg


Right on dude!
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 9:15:21 AM EST
Armor, plates, etc are on the radar, but fall behind food & resource preps...at least in my mind.

No excuse not to have medical / trauma kits though. Doesn't take a sucking chest wound to take you outta the game of life.
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 11:00:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2008 11:05:14 AM EST by BrandonP]

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:

Originally Posted By calicojack:
look again troll. you'll see ats med pouches, osoe med pouches, the hsgi bleeder pouch, esstac med-rats, etc. almost every rig that has been posted recently has one. also there is a nice long sticky at the top of the forum dedicated to med pouches.


Damn dude...apparantly my message is aimed at those who aren't reading stickies because I continue to see hero pics without the shit. I see pics of rifle classes people pay thousands to attend and they don't roll with plates. I'd think if I were to pay that amount of money I'd train like I'd fight.



Honestly I think that the "armor in every situation" approach is highly overrated. A more professional approach is to evaluate the pro's and con's of wearing different types of body armor in the different types of situations you are likely to encounter.

For example, alot of these guys have SHTF-dedicated rigs. If they're planning on bugging out on foot, they're going to have a hell of a time walking long distances, not to mention running, getting up from prone, etc., with a loaded IBA with front, back, and side plates. And sure, I guess they could always train to a higher level, but in a bug-out situation maybe it makes more sense for them to load up on things like food and extra ammunition than body armor? I don't know about you, but I can't eat rifle plates, and I'd be hard pressed to brain a deer with one just to get something to eat.

I know that in my situation in the military, I'm stationed in a particular area in a situation in which mobility is key over protection against small arms. In regards to armor, fragmentation protection is far more important to me in this context as the primary threat is Kornet and Sagger missiles and RPGs. True, somebody could open up on us with an AK or an M16, but if that happens, I'm probably using the Hummer for cover and anything which is sticking out isn't going to be covered by body armor anyway. So what would I be getting with rifle plates? Well for one, it'd be harder for me to get out of that Hummer if we're being fired upon by missiles, and it'd be a lot harder for a buddy to pull me out of the Hummer if I'm hit and incapacitated.

Maybe some of these guys ARE training as they would fight in these rifle classes. Maybe armor isn't going to help the person to "win" or survive in the most likely circumstances they would expect to face?



Example:

This shit, 60 kilometers, PLUS an extra 15 lbs of armor? No thanks.

(not me in the picture, different battalion)
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 2:51:54 PM EST
Med pouches don't cycle very well through my gun.
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