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Posted: 10/6/2007 2:54:13 PM EST

Ergonomics are a huge factor for me when it comes to evaluating a firearm for purchase, use, or daily carry, and I have yet to find a rifle that is more user-friendly than the AR-15 (hence my membership and participation on this website).

However, my own personal experience does not extend to every fighting rifle in the whole world so I am wondering what out there might be better than Stoner's 50-year old concept.

The ergonomic advantages of the AR15 include:

- Naturally positioned thumb safety
- Bolt hold open
- Drop free magazines
- Well-positioned bolt release
- Well-positioned mag release


A couple of things I don't like about the AR15 include:

- Forward assist (I find it to be essentially useless since I don't want to force home a potentially defective round. I train to eject it and try the 2nd round.)
- T-shaped charging handle. I've trained enough with my ARs to be fairly quick with this charging handle, but I still don't like the position of it. I much prefer a side charging handle.

I've never fired or even handled an XCR but from the look of it I think it might be a serious contender for 'most ergonomic rifle'. Just an uninformed opinion.

So, is there any rifle out there that can trump the AR in this category?

Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:55:26 PM EST
If it only had a FAL's charging handle the AR would be perfect.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 3:14:53 PM EST
I would have to say not really.

The AR15 has been around a long time. I find the A1s, A2's, A4's and M4's all comfortable.

I may be biased since I have been trained on the M16, but I have held the XCR, SIG 556 and Aug and they are great rifles but I feel most comfortable around the AR.

I have the FS2000 and that is a cool weapon. It is a bit bulky but it is light weight.

If you look at the Sig 556 and the XCR they have some AR like features. I believe that the military will be hard pressed to find a good replacement.

Maybe the FNSCAR may replace it?

Who knows?

Max
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 3:54:49 PM EST
Much bigger fan of the AUG.
Matt
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 3:56:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:
Much bigger fan of the AUG.
Matt


Bro, if you're going to say that you have to tell us why. After all... AUGs aren't easy to use.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 3:57:24 PM EST
Fal
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:00:03 PM EST
I'm gonna bet the Masada beats the AR.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:02:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By AvengeR15:
The ergonomic advantages of the AR15 include:

- Naturally positioned thumb safety Same on the AUG
- Bolt hold open Same on the AUG
- Drop free magazines With a little practice, mag changes are just as quick
- Well-positioned bolt release Same on the AUG (just in a different place)
- Well-positioned mag release Again, a little practice and some muscle memory, you'll be fine.
- shorter over-all length
- heavy use of non-corrosive material (polymer)
- far easier to strip/clean


A couple of things I don't like about the AR15 include:

- Forward assist (I find it to be essentially useless since I don't want to force home a potentially defective round. I train to eject it and try the 2nd round.)
- T-shaped charging handle. I've trained enough with my ARs to be fairly quick with this charging handle, but I still don't like the position of it. I much prefer a side charging handle. AUG has one of those, too

I've never fired or even handled an XCR but from the look of it I think it might be a serious contender for 'most ergonomic rifle'. Just an uninformed opinion.

So, is there any rifle out there that can trump the AR in this category?



I've never used either in anger, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
Matt
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:03:54 PM EST
Although in my opinion not as good of an overall weapon as the AR-15, I think the FS2000 is ergonomically a great weapon. I don't own one, but I use them a few times at the range. Was very pleasant to hold and shoot.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:05:40 PM EST
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:07:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


Amen, to that one. I butt stocked a friend of mine who got so drunk he started breaking beer bottles against my table. The A2 stock is rock solid, I landed a hell of a hit. Knocked the fucker out for the night.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:07:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


Nah, you just take the barrel off and beat them with it.
Matt
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:08:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


Nah, you just take the barrel off and beat them with it.
Matt
To much time. The final scene of SHOOTER woulda sucked ass if he'd a done that.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:12:19 PM EST

Beretta Storm
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:13:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By GGRNR:
i23.tinypic.com/2q07by0.jpg
Beretta Storm
right click, save as, ibtl
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:20:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


Nah, you just take the barrel off and beat them with it.
Matt



My biggest problem with the AUG its a BITCH for a left handed shooter...
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:22:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rsteinb:

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


Nah, you just take the barrel off and beat them with it.
Matt



My biggest problem with the AUG its a BITCH for a left handed shooter...


Why? There's a left-hand bolt option.
Matt
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 4:32:05 PM EST
I'm going with FAL. I don't think that "drop free" mags are exactly all that cracked up, especially when you've been in the dirt and it doesn't drop free
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 5:27:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 5:29:43 PM EST by Achilles1]
Best ergo's is all personal taste and saying that I'd gladly take a SIG 551 over an AR any day.
It's not that an AR doesn't have great ergos to me, the 551/550's are just better.
Take into account I don't care about drop free mags either, prefer the ambi paddle release since I can release and change to a new mag with my right hand faster and easier, love the rightside charging handle, position of the safety, overall balance, steel design and feel, and I'm a lefty.

The shitty thing is after drooling over 551's of other people I've meet with them and always wanting my own not being able to afford one for what they cost on the current market, SIG Arms now SIG Sauer ended up putting out that piece of shit 556 and left me still wanting a real 551.

SIG SAUER--can kiss my hairy ass.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 5:53:37 PM EST
The Sig 556 is actually a big step forward from the 55X series. I'm not sure if it has better ergonomics than an AR though. It does go bang when the trigger is pulled which ranks higher than ergos for me personally.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 6:00:39 PM EST
The XCR is AR-like. Similar mag release, trigger, and the same magazine and grip. The bolt release is ambidextrous though and faster to access without changing your grip. Barrel swaps out in less than a minute and the charging handle is similar to the FAL. The only drawback Ive noticed on the XCR is the weight. Its a little porky.

Link Posted: 10/6/2007 6:08:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 6:14:06 PM EST by Achilles1]

Originally Posted By Accomplice1:
I find the Sig 556 is actually a big step forward from the 55X series. I'm not sure if it has better ergonomics for me than an AR though. It does go bang when the trigger is pulled which ranks higher than ergos for me personally.


That left a little to my imagination as is.

The only thing I like about the 556 that I see as a plus is taking AR mags. There a more prevalent used mag in the US and have better cost and options for them too. An LOP adjustable stock is nice, but not how they did it to me and the 550 stocks are still a very good fit for me and very nice and comfortable stock too.
I realize that in using AR mag they'd more than likely need to make a more AR release, but I still prefer the ambi paddle.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 6:14:02 PM EST
As a left handed shooter I don't find the AR ergonomics to be all that great.

Most ergonomic rifle I've found is the M14.

Ambi safety, left-friendly charging handle, and I like like the general "feel" of the rifle.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 6:21:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 6:24:09 PM EST by Achilles1]

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
As a left handed shooter I don't find the AR ergonomics to be all that great.

Most ergonomic rifle I've found is the M14.

Ambi safety, left-friendly charging handle, and I like like the general "feel" of the rifle.


+1 I find the M14 to be pretty much top of the hill and in sights and caliber too.
In just about anything but CQB I'd take it first before all else.

The SIG 550/551's do have some similarities with the charging handle and mag release which is why I compared them to the AR, but I'd still prefer a M14 for just about everything myself.

Link Posted: 10/6/2007 6:22:14 PM EST
i have yet to find anything as ergonomic. and i've shot alot of different "assault weapons" from around the world.

i still haven't found anything i like as much as an AR15/M16
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 6:49:47 PM EST
Well, it is a question that has no right answer, as what fits me, may not fit you, etc.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 7:34:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 7:35:18 PM EST by theBUBBAMANcan]

Originally Posted By Hemi-Cuda:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


Amen, to that one. I butt stocked a friend of mine who got so drunk he started breaking beer bottles against my table. The A2 stock is rock solid, I landed a hell of a hit. Knocked the fucker out for the night.



What scares me, Hemi, is that you're probably telling the truth!




ETA: I own page 2!

Link Posted: 10/6/2007 7:36:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:

Originally Posted By Hemi-Cuda:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


Amen, to that one. I butt stocked a friend of mine who got so drunk he started breaking beer bottles against my table. The A2 stock is rock solid, I landed a hell of a hit. Knocked the fucker out for the night.



What scares me, Hemi, is that you're probably telling the truth!




ETA: I own page 2!





He woke up with the outline of my butt stock still on his face.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:59:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:

Originally Posted By Hemi-Cuda:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


Amen, to that one. I butt stocked a friend of mine who got so drunk he started breaking beer bottles against my table. The A2 stock is rock solid, I landed a hell of a hit. Knocked the fucker out for the night.



What scares me, Hemi, is that you're probably telling the truth!




ETA: I own page 2!



Trust me brother you can lay the hurt down with the AUG. I'm not sure about the new American versions, but the Steyr Mannlicher AUG polymer is pretty damn solid. I sure as hell wouldn't want to get hit by one.

If you guys ever get the chance feel the polymer on an FS2000 and compare it to the AUG you'll even be able to feel the difference in strength.

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 3:00:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By GGRNR:
i23.tinypic.com/2q07by0.jpg
Beretta Storm


Hello little school girl; I'm a little school boy too.



Great picture.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 3:35:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


I've always loved the FAL as a battle rifle. Although I've never had to endure combat I would feel better knowing that if I ever ran out of boolits I could beat a man to death with and empty FAL...

The AR does't make a very good club
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:57:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:10:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By GGRNR:
i23.tinypic.com/2q07by0.jpg
Beretta Storm


While shes hot, the storm is easly one of the LEAST ergonomic rifles I've ever held. Definitely loses out to the AR.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:28:19 AM EST
The answer to the thread is simply...

No.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:41:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:45:35 AM EST
Despite its problems the L85A1 (SA80) is very easy to shoot/handle.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:43:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 12:47:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Most ergonomic rifle I've found is the M14.


I'm a righty, and I find the M14 to be very nice as well.

Karl
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 8:32:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
Much bigger fan of the AUG.
Matt


Bro, if you're going to say that you have to tell us why. After all... AUGs aren't easy to use.


Not true, I own 3. I know. They are simply different. People aren't use to bullpup usage so they THINK they aren't easy to use. For a conventional styled rifle the AR15 owns all in terms of ergo's

S.O.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 8:34:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


No, but you can remove the barrel and use it as a night stick/baton... Give'm a good barrel whipping.

S.O.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 8:38:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By Rsteinb:

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
But you can't butt stroke someone with an AUG as good as you can an AR


Nah, you just take the barrel off and beat them with it.
Matt



My biggest problem with the AUG its a BITCH for a left handed shooter...


Why? There's a left-hand bolt option.
Matt



The position of the charging handle on the AUG is extremely bad for a left handed shooter.

Right handed, it's perfect.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:34:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 10:38:45 PM EST by desertmoon]
The most ergonimically friendly rifle I can think of would have been the Stoner 63A in the rifle or carbine format.

It had a centrally mounted charging handle like a 1928 thompson

M14 style safety

Paddle, centrally mounted mag release like an M14, also.

Very easy for either a left or rightie to use.

Vid of Stoner 63A Rifle ( others also )
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:56:22 PM EST
God bless Eugene Stoner and his protege Reed Knight.

I have always loved the ergonomics of the AR15! Sorry lefties!

From an engineering standpoint it is such a simple design. (Amazing use of modern materials in the 60's) It is one parralel line from the barrel through to the stock. How all of the controls ended up where they are is amazing.

I concur that the charging handle position is a minor weak point and the foward assist is a useless bandaid which was added in the XM16A1E1 era of improvements.

Besides, If I ever get an NFA weapon (after i leave NY) it will be a M16. You are never likely to see any of the other aforementioned rifles in transferable full auto and some may never be seen in semi (mosada) except in dealer samples maybe. But i dont see the AR15 being outdated anytime soon until we have some crazy shoulder fired railguns or something that doesnt use conventional ammo. I think that conventional fireams have come almost as far as we can develop them. ALMOST.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 11:05:11 PM EST
Also... mag changes are sooo easy and fast. unlike the awkward mag change for bullpup's and ak's

Though i may be doing an ARES piston conversion on one of mine. That is also cool cause you can custiomize the crap out of an AR.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 11:38:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hemi-Cuda:
Amen, to that one. I butt stocked a friend of mine who got so drunk he started breaking beer bottles against my table. The A2 stock is rock solid, I landed a hell of a hit. Knocked the fucker out for the night.




He wasnt the party's banjo player was he?
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 5:42:18 AM EST
Hi everybody
I am a new member..first time posting

ergonomics are very personal and change with the time spent training with one weapon.
My personal preference is the AUG but I am alos biased....I used to carry and train soldiers to use tehm for 14 years in its country of origin....Austria.

Oh by the way....you can but stroke with the AUG....trust me I was a close combat instructor
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 6:23:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
As a left handed shooter I don't find the AR ergonomics to be all that great.

Most ergonomic rifle I've found is the M14.

Ambi safety, left-friendly charging handle, and I like like the general "feel" of the rifle.


Nastty bubba-fudd stock...

M-14 and 'ergonomic' just don't fit....
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 6:25:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aloxite:
That's easy.

Rifle, Caliber .30, M1

i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd229/aloxited_photos/john_c_garand.jpg


- Naturally positioned safety

seems natural to me

- Bolt hold open

Yup, does that

- Drop free magazines

Damn straight, they drop in a free fall on their way down after being launched out.
(Er well ok the magaazine stays put, the clip is launched out)

- Well-positioned bolt release

well, no, not like the AR. But hey, seems to work

- Well-positioned mag release

hell yeah, positioned where it'll work automatically

- T shaped charging handle

Not on this rifle, no way

-Butt stroking ability

Do I even hafta say it.

If someone gets buttstroked by a Marine with an M-1, you may start refering to them in the past tense.

<­BR>What do I win?




You missed:

Low magazine capacity requires excessive reloading....

Fires a round that is absurdly more powerful than required, resulting in a huge amount of felt-recoil (which is an ergonomic concern) for no real benefit....
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 6:30:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2007 6:30:57 PM EST by Dave_A]
My issue with the 'others':

1) Rock-in magazines & paddle-release: Too much fumbling around, and you need the use of your mag-reloading hand to drop the mag, rather than dropping it with your firing hand while reaching for a new one....

With the AR you don't have to hook your mag in place, you just stuff it in the hole and give it a slap...

2) right-side charging handles: You have to take the weapon down, turn it sideways, reach over and pull the damn handle.... The Ar's T-handle is just in a better place...

3) And who the hell would rather have a goose-neck stock than a modern in-line stock and pistol grip? Not a good design....
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 6:48:28 PM EST
Hate the charging handle on the AR. I like the G3 except for the magazine rock in.

Other than that, the AR is pretty good.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:08:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
My issue with the 'others':

1) Rock-in magazines & paddle-release: Too much fumbling around, and you need the use of your mag-reloading hand to drop the mag, rather than dropping it with your firing hand while reaching for a new one....

You ASSUME the mag will drop freely
With the AR you don't have to hook your mag in place, you just stuff it in the hole and give it a slap...
Then the mag falls out because it didn't latch.
2) right-side charging handles: You have to take the weapon down, turn it sideways, reach over and pull the damn handle.... The Ar's T-handle is just in a better place...
Left side charging handles
3) And who the hell would rather have a goose-neck stock than a modern in-line stock and pistol grip? Not a good design....


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