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Posted: 5/1/2011 12:20:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2011 12:26:34 PM EDT by 1911smith]
In the last three years you have bought:

A: Hornady

B: Dillon

It's my guess that Hornady outsells Dillon by a wide margin. My guess is Dillon's marketing blunder by choosing to compete with their retailers.

Poll is only for those who purchased a Hornady or Dillon press. We know Lee out sells them all.

Sorry Lee and RCBS customers. We'll have to log out to see vote.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 12:59:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2011 1:04:30 PM EDT by MastaMarksman]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
In the last three years you have bought:

A: Hornady

B: Dillon

It's my guess that Hornady outsells Dillon by a wide margin. My guess is Dillon's marketing blunder by choosing to compete with their retailers.

Poll is only for those who purchased a Hornady or Dillon press. We know Lee out sells them all.

Sorry Lee and RCBS customers. We'll have to log out to see vote.



Hornady is going to win because of their "Free Bullets".   Let's face the facts, Hornady has extended that offer soo many times because they know it's what keeps their LNL AP's flying off the shelves.  If they were to stop offering the free bullets they would actually have to complete pound for pound and would likely loose that battle.    I don't care how many people post "Cost doesn't matter" and "Free Bullet's don't Matter"  BS!  If they never offered the free bullets do you really thing there would be the Hornady following there is today?  Nope!

Dillon's marketing or lack there of probably does hurt their sales a little, but "Choosing to compete with their retailers" I don't think has anything to do with anything.  They really don't "Compete" with their etailers, They sell at their MSRP and their shipping rate is typically higher then other places online that sell Dillon's products, so it's usually cheaper to buy it from somone other then Dillon directly.   Also anyone that has a local shop that sell Dillon, can often buy Dillon products with out a shipping fee at all.

BTW, you don't have to log out to view the results with out voting, just click "submit" with out selecting one of the voting options and one can view the results.

-Masta
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 1:24:03 PM EDT
Hey ! That does work, just don't vote and leave choices blank.

Free bullets, blue sky, life time subscription to Hand Loaders Anonymous, free case lube, free dies, free pie. Whatever......................

If Hornady has as many issues as you've claimed Masta. They wouldn't be selling presses. I've got a set of Hornady New Dimension Dies tucked away. I keep meaning to send in for the free 100 hundred bullets, just never get around to it.

Fact is. The bullets never had any bearing in my purchase plan.... and when I do pick-up a new LNL bullets won't play a decision in that purchase either.

Fact for me in my decision. The indexing is sooo much smoother on LNL than Dillon and Hornady doesn't have the tendacy to sling powder like a Dillon.

Now, be careful before you post. I have time on a lot of machines. Benefit of having a Dillon Nut for a friend and living so close to Graf's retail show room. Hornady does a better job of indexing smoothly.

As for marketing... Unfair ? Free bullets ? It's all fair. Hornady does a hell of a lot better bringing their product to market than Dillon.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 1:28:12 PM EDT
The poll is skewed,, it didn't register my vote
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 1:33:36 PM EDT
My LNL AP has been great.  Indexes like a champ and is easy to adjust if it doesn't.  Thousands and thousands of rounds loaded with no problems at all.  It is a great press.

I'm not cheap with my firearms related purchases, but when I tallied up the final out the door costs to get set up reloading, the Dillon was twice the price of the Hornady.  Just couldn't justify it.  Dillon's are good presses, but the value just isn't there.  YMMV.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 1:35:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2011 1:36:38 PM EDT by 1911smith]
Originally Posted By We-rBorg:
The poll is skewed,, it didn't register my vote


Well 'borg. If it wasn't for Dillon or Hornady your vote wasn't meant to be.

My equipment as everyone knows is Lee. I've got a contractor who's going to be building my reloading room this summer. There will be Dillon and Hornady equipment mounted to benches, as well all my Lee presses too.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 1:37:59 PM EDT
It was for the L&L, but the count didn't go up.
'Borg
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 2:14:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2011 2:28:18 PM EDT by MastaMarksman]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Hey ! That does work, just don't vote and leave choices blank.

Free bullets, blue sky, life time subscription to Hand Loaders Anonymous, free case lube, free dies, free pie. Whatever......................

If Hornady has as many issues as you've claimed Masta. They wouldn't be selling presses. I've got a set of Hornady New Dimension Dies tucked away. I keep meaning to send in for the free 100 hundred bullets, just never get around to it.

Fact is. The bullets never had any bearing in my purchase plan.... and when I do pick-up a new LNL bullets won't play a decision in that purchase either.

Fact for me in my decision. The indexing is sooo much smoother on LNL than Dillon and Hornady doesn't have the tendacy to sling powder like a Dillon.

Now, be careful before you post. I have time on a lot of machines. Benefit of having a Dillon Nut for a friend and living so close to Graf's retail show room. Hornady does a better job of indexing smoothly.

As for marketing... Unfair ? Free bullets ? It's all fair. Hornady does a hell of a lot better bringing their product to market than Dillon.


I don't "Claim" the issues Hornady has had, If you've read just these forums alone over the last 2 years you would have seen the many issues,  if you go out to many other pouplar forums on the net you will see the issues,  Even with out the issues they've had, they have MAJIOR supply problems.   It takes them a good 2 years after introducing a product before they can get their supply up enough to not be sitting on back orders..  Look at their bullet feeder/bullet die's as a CURRENT example of their supply problems.

It amazes me that people just ignore these types of thing and run around acting like they don't and never did exsist!  

As for the LNL being smoother index, that is bunk.  My Dillon XL650 rotates smooth as glass and doesn't "sling" powder at all, nor doe it "jump" or "snap".   It's all about the skill of the operator.  Adjust the shell plate advance block to advance the shell plate to full rotation instead of letting the ball detent pull the shell plate to "home" and it wont jump what so ever.

I don't have to be carefull before I post,  I post provable facts.

What I don't understand is how you can make bunk claims like "Hornady does a hell of a lot better bringing their product to market than Dillon."

When Dillon announces a new product, they actually produce the product and you don't have to get on a year+ long back order to get it.    True they don't announce new products as often,  but maybe that's because they actually perfect their products before announcing them then making their customers wait years to fix all the bugs and actually manufacture enough of the product to not be on constant back order or only have 1/2 the product available to purchase making it in fact useless untill you can get the other 1/2 which will takes you months.  (Hornady couln't get shell plates off back order for over a year, they can't get bullet feed die's out to market, etc)   I can go on and on..  But you'll make more excuses for them and run around the fact that it's all true.

I never said anything about offering the free bullets was "unfair",  If they didn't offer them, their LNL AP's would not be as pouplar as they are. PERIOD.

All that said, the Hornady LNL AP is a great press.  The issues they've had have been resolved to date and they've done great at getting out repair parts for those who have had the problems.   But it's a fact of outsourcing that has been most if not all of their problems.   Oursourcing is something Dillon doesn't do and thus doesn't have these issues.   Dillon's are more expensive but doing all the work in house costs more too.

-Masta

Link Posted: 5/1/2011 2:21:31 PM EDT
My Dillon 550B showed up at my door yesterday afternoon. I was going back and forth between the LNL and the 550 for awhile, but Dillon's rep (not that Hornady's is bad) is as good as it gets and 500rds an hour is phenomenal compared to the rate I'm loading at now.



100 Bullets here, or 250 there aren't enough to sway me to Hornady, especially since I don't load any of their bullets in the first place.



I do have Hornady's 7th Edition reloading manual, and am thinking of picking the 8th Edition up, but haven't felt the need to purchase anything else with their name on it yet. They make good stuff, I've just bought other stuff that I thought fit my needs better.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 2:42:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2011 2:52:28 PM EDT by 1911smith]
550, 650 and 1050. Yes, I have 1050 time. All three presses advance harder than LNL.

Tell you something else. I don't care what Hornady's issues were yesterday because today they have been resolved.

The 1050 which btw belongs to Graf's last technical desk guru who retired to start his gunsmithing business,  would and does sling powder if you try to pick the rate up beyond 300 an hour and I'm being generous. It was really closer to 250. LNL advance is much smoother.

Dillon just isn't all that and wrapped in a box compared to Hornady.

P.S. Masta.... you owe the individual you called a liar an apology.

Originally posted by Mastamarksman

EWP don't kid yourself. Hornady has had a TON of supply problems. You couldn't even get a LNL AP press for almost a year while Dillon never had any supply problems.

Shell plates and bushings while "small parts" are 2 parts that they HAVE had problems and supply problems with and are 2 very important components.

There are more, but since you mentioned those 2 I won't dig their hole any deeper.

There's nothing wrong with being a Hornady fanboy, but don't lie.

-Masta


There's no need in this. I know EWP to be a man of integrity. I, unfortuantely can't say same about you. Maybe today you'll turn it around. Who knows.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 2:45:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 2:54:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 3:32:57 PM EDT
listen to 1911smith

He knows what he's talking about..

even if you don't want to admit it..
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 3:39:09 PM EDT
I bought a Hornady LnL AP about six months ago.  It's a good press, but I've ran into a few minor issues.  A good buddy of mine has a 650, and it runs like a champ.  

Having used both, I can say Dillon makes a better product.  I'm not saying the Hornady is bad, but its just not as "refined" as the Dillon.  I'm very happy with my LnL AP, but if I could do it all over again, I would go blue.  ymmv...
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 5:24:49 PM EDT
I bought a Dillon 650 recently.   I don't have it set up yet because I haven't saved up the $$ for the case loader.   I wouldn't say I'm overly impressed with either companies marketing.   I don't know of anyplace in MI that has either brands presses on display where you can see one.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 5:42:20 PM EDT
I have 650 love it. A hornaday bullet feeder is coming monday to be added to it. I am ordering a 1050 next week ( hopefully my plea with the minister of sex and finances will go through). I think it depends on your application. Filling one room with gear from one company is silly. Each company makes great products. True some are better than others, I find a that a good tool from any company is a still a good tool.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 6:36:04 PM EDT
3 years back, an extra Dillon quick change powder measure kit for the 550b.  A year after that, a couple bottles of brass polish and then the Super Swage 600 this past Christmas.  The QC was a Xmas present too.

2 months back, I bought the Hornady cam lock/collet bullet puller at Bass Pro and picked up their 224, 308 and 338 collets, since then.

Back in '95, before I had a computer and Al Gore's Inferwebz, it was a choice between the Hornady LnL and the 550b.

I went blue, but both companies are at the top of my list.

Chris
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 7:37:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2011 7:58:15 PM EDT by MastaMarksman]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
550, 650 and 1050. Yes, I have 1050 time. All three presses advance harder than LNL.

Tell you something else. I don't care what Hornady's issues were yesterday because today they have been resolved.

The 1050 which btw belongs to Graf's last technical desk guru who retired to start his gunsmithing business,  would and does sling powder if you try to pick the rate up beyond 300 an hour and I'm being generous. It was really closer to 250. LNL advance is much smoother.

Dillon just isn't all that and wrapped in a box compared to Hornady.

P.S. Masta.... you owe the individual you called a liar an apology.

Originally posted by Mastamarksman

EWP don't kid yourself. Hornady has had a TON of supply problems. You couldn't even get a LNL AP press for almost a year while Dillon never had any supply problems.

Shell plates and bushings while "small parts" are 2 parts that they HAVE had problems and supply problems with and are 2 very important components.

There are more, but since you mentioned those 2 I won't dig their hole any deeper.

There's nothing wrong with being a Hornady fanboy, but don't lie.

-Masta


There's no need in this. I know EWP to be a man of integrity. I, unfortuantely can't say same about you. Maybe today you'll turn it around. Who knows.


I don't owe anyone anything.

The fact is you and EWP post your personal opinions as fact and you ignore issues and act as if they don't exsist.  You just said that yourself above.

The facts are that you like to make broad statements and base them on very small details.

Like saying ALL dillon's arn't as smooth as a Hornady, but in reality you are comparing it to a 1050, which isn't even comparable to a LNL AP.  The LNL AP is comparable to an XL650, which as I stated above, does not "jump" or "Snap" or spill any powder at all if it's adjusted/setup correctly..   You always leave out the details and try to tell everyone that YOU are the only one that knows anything about anything and that I know nothing.

Keep lieing to your self.  I don't care if you believe what I say,  I can prove anything I say/post, you however just post broad opinions with little detail ignoring obvious shortfalls and make broad statements as if they are fact. You have no right to challenge everything I say while continuing to post BS.

-Masta
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 7:39:02 PM EDT
LNL AP for me!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 10:12:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MastaMarksman:
,  I can prove anything I say/post, you however just post broad opinions with little detail ignoring obvious shortfalls and make broad statements as if they are fact. You have no right to challenge everything I say while continuing to post BS.

-Masta


As tempting as it may be to have a Dr, Phil session with Mr. Marksman. I'll refrain. I can assure you,  you loose integrity every time you use invective language. Maturity issues.

I often back up my points with full color photo posts along with sourced material to reference. I think the burden of proof lies with you. Any of us who live in central Missouri can walk into Graf & Sons in Mexico and pull handles on both the LNL and Dillon presses stationed side by side on display. It's a no brainier to see the difference. Am setting up a 650 sometime in next 12 months.  I would much appreciate seeing the operation you describe done in photo and video of your 650 advancing.

Lookin forward to it.

Link Posted: 5/2/2011 5:37:05 AM EDT
I have never used an LNL so I cannot attest to it's indexing. I have also heard of several problems with supply of parts and failure of parts with Hornady. I will also say that Dillon machines can and do break. Both are facts.

I will also say that my 650 has always indexed a little rough.By that I mean it snaps into place. I have tried many different things to get it to not do that. Including clipping the spring like the Dillon tech suggested.. I find that odd. I have not tried MM's way of proper adjustment. I am going to do that today. I bet it might solve the issue. I hope at least it will. I will also be the first to say that Dillon is not perfect and has some design issues on several machines that I personally think could be changed for the better. I am not the only one who thinks that way. I am just the only one who doesn't care if I get flak for it.

199smith I know you are a smart guy. I hope you are not basing your opinions of which machine indexes better by the displays at Grafs. Not knocking Grafs at all. I am just saying that display models tend to get handled improperly by every man woman and child that enter their showroom. I can tell you that for the most part when I go to a store that has a press set up (progressive) it is either broken, missing parts, doesn't index or all of the above. I hope you have pulled the handle on properly adjusted working machines.

That said ANY progressive machine can index poorly. It depends on how the user operates the machine as well as sever other factors, such as how clean the machine is, if there are many critical parts that are worn, if its well and properly lubricated, etc. I know you know this though.

Here is a perfect example

Here is a 1050 that is run by and Autodrive. This user has this thing set up so bad it makes me cringe. Dillon 1050 with really bad indexing

Here is my 1050 running a same speed Autodrive (1100 RPH) See the difference. To note at teh time this video was shot this machine had about 250,000 cycles on it. A properly adjusted 1050

I personally think that any loader worth their salt would not choose a machine simply because they get free bullets. If they do, it means they didn't look at the big picture or they were already going to by a LNL despite the free bullets.

Bottom line the 650 and the LNL are good machines with problems of their own.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 5:56:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2011 6:13:40 AM EDT by MastaMarksman]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
As tempting as it may be to have a Dr, Phil session with Mr. Marksman. I'll refrain. I can assure you,  you loose integrity every time you use invective language. Maturity issues.

I often back up my points with full color photo posts along with sourced material to reference. I think the burden of proof lies with you. Any of us who live in central Missouri can walk into Graf & Sons in Mexico and pull handles on both the LNL and Dillon presses stationed side by side on display. It's a no brainier to see the difference. Am setting up a 650 sometime in next 12 months.  I would much appreciate seeing the operation you describe done in photo and video of your 650 advancing.

Lookin forward to it.




I would be happy to make a video and walk anyone threw the correct setup of the 650.    Well, everyone except you because frankly you are not worth my time and comments about "integrity" and "Maturity" from you, well I wont go there.

BTW I've been to Graf's in St Charles, Mo where they have the same presses set up side-by-side.

Becides, it doesn't matter if I held your hand and showed you it is possible, you will still not listen to anything I say, you will still call me names and challenge my "Integrity" and "Maturity",  so why waste my time with you?   You sir need to grow up, but I'm afraid that you are one of those old guys that will never grow up and is only going to get worse as your age sets in with your ways, you think your the only one that knows anything because you've "Been around"  and that all the "Darn young kids" which is everyone younger then you "Think" they know everything, but in reality they know nothing because YOU know everything.




You like to bring in quotes from other threads, even though they have nothing to do with this one, but going with your ways you "left out"  this one...

Originally Posted By ScottyPotty:
A buddy has the LNL and is happy with his purchase too - Ive loaded some ammo on it and it works well.  One thing I think is interesting that you dont hear much about is the snapping of the shell plate causing the powder to spill out of the case.(this also applies to the 650) but I thought the 1/2 rotation was supposed to stop that.



Imagine that.


-Masta
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 6:19:30 AM EDT
I'm looking forward to you holding my hand MM. Anxiously awaiting your thread as I work with a half full cup.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 7:06:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:


Both machines seemed tuned, or as tuned from the factory. My handle pull is slow and smooth. The same way I drop powder from BR drop. Slow and consistent. LNL accentuates my pull where 650 doesn't. It "clicks" into place. I've inspected best I can. It seems that's the way it's made. 1050 indexes much nicer.

Next time at Graf's will take a video of each machine running and post. I'm curious what your cyclic rate is on your tuned 1050 ?? What would it be loading 9mm with a case full load ??

Jason's running 400 to 500 an hour with his 1050 loading 9mm with 3N37 at case capacity with his seating depth and he seats fairly deep.  At his rate powder is visibly lost, granted not much but enough to slow press down for my QC. Powder is visibly slung from brass onto shellplate. His advance is not quite as smooth as your adjusted advance and nowhere near your out of adjustment advance.

I just don't trust powder to drop as it should. Humping a Bar-Sto barrel will make a fella that way and I'll probably never get past that fear so I don't foresee my cyclic rate ever getting past 250 an hour. That's the speed at which my visual operates. High speed presses don't impress me much which is exactly why my current presses serve to meet my needs.

That said, the ease at which Hornady advances is ideal for .223 and pistol brass loaded to published case capacity.

The way your loading .223 without inside case visual would absolutely drive me insane while feeding through my N4.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 8:54:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2011 8:54:28 AM EDT by Flamethrower]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:


Both machines seemed tuned, or as tuned from the factory. My handle pull is slow and smooth. The same way I drop powder from BR drop. Slow and consistent. LNL accentuates my pull where 650 doesn't. It "clicks" into place. I've inspected best I can. It seems that's the way it's made. 1050 indexes much nicer.

Next time at Graf's will take a video of each machine running and post. I'm curious what your cyclic rate is on your tuned 1050 ?? What would it be loading 9mm with a case full load ??

Jason's running 400 to 500 an hour with his 1050 loading 9mm with 3N37 at case capacity with his seating depth and he seats fairly deep.  At his rate powder is visibly lost, granted not much but enough to slow press down for my QC. Powder is visibly slung from brass onto shellplate. His advance is not quite as smooth as your adjusted advance and nowhere near your out of adjustment advance.

I just don't trust powder to drop as it should. Humping a Bar-Sto barrel will make a fella that way and I'll probably never get past that fear so I don't foresee my cyclic rate ever getting past 250 an hour. That's the speed at which my visual operates. High speed presses don't impress me much which is exactly why my current presses serve to meet my needs.

That said, the ease at which Hornady advances is ideal for .223 and pistol brass loaded to published case capacity.

The way your loading .223 without inside case visual would absolutely drive me insane while feeding through my N4.


The machine is the 1100rph version. Yes whan I am loading smaller cases like the 9mm, I do get some powder that skips out. That said it is on the scale of 20 or so flakes in the course of 3k rounds.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 9:30:32 AM EDT



Originally Posted By MastaMarksman:



Originally Posted By 1911smith:

As tempting as it may be to have a Dr, Phil session with Mr. Marksman. I'll refrain. I can assure you,  you loose integrity every time you use invective language. Maturity issues.



I often back up my points with full color photo posts along with sourced material to reference. I think the burden of proof lies with you. Any of us who live in central Missouri can walk into Graf & Sons in Mexico and pull handles on both the LNL and Dillon presses stationed side by side on display. It's a no brainier to see the difference. Am setting up a 650 sometime in next 12 months.  I would much appreciate seeing the operation you describe done in photo and video of your 650 advancing.



Lookin forward to it.









I would be happy to make a video and walk anyone threw the correct setup of the 650.    Well, everyone except you because frankly you are not worth my time and comments about "integrity" and "Maturity" from you, well I wont go there.



BTW I've been to Graf's in St Charles, Mo where they have the same presses set up side-by-side.



Becides, it doesn't matter if I held your hand and showed you it is possible, you will still not listen to anything I say, you will still call me names and challenge my "Integrity" and "Maturity",  so why waste my time with you?   You sir need to grow up, but I'm afraid that you are one of those old guys that will never grow up and is only going to get worse as your age sets in with your ways, you think your the only one that knows anything because you've "Been around"  and that all the "Darn young kids" which is everyone younger then you "Think" they know everything, but in reality they know nothing because YOU know everything.









You like to bring in quotes from other threads, even though they have nothing to do with this one, but going with your ways you "left out"  this one...




Originally Posted By ScottyPotty:

A buddy has the LNL and is happy with his purchase too - Ive loaded some ammo on it and it works well.  One thing I think is interesting that you dont hear much about is the snapping of the shell plate causing the powder to spill out of the case.(this also applies to the 650) but I thought the 1/2 rotation was supposed to stop that.






Imagine that.





-Masta



I'm not trying to get into the debate but I would like to see a photo or video of how you set yours up too.   I just got a 650 and haven't set it up yet



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 9:50:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 9:52:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2011 9:52:08 AM EDT by AeroE]
To lock or not to lock, that is not the question.
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