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Link Posted: 1/11/2019 7:13:57 PM EST
SRS-A2 is pretty cool...too bad they dont offer it in LH.
Link Posted: 1/11/2019 7:18:41 PM EST
I really like microtech OTF knives, they're a much better knife than my mini infidel, but I'll never buy a microtech because I've seen too much BS from them. I have the same convictions with desert tech. They might have some great performing bolt guns but I will never own anything DT due to everything to date. You can't unsee it once your eyes have been opened.
Link Posted: 1/11/2019 10:25:02 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
The really good news is that it will be impossible to screw up a gas system on the SRS A2
View Quote
How many Indian MIM parts are in that one?

Don't worry, you'll undoubtedly receive the same fine customer service they've shown MDR owners... which is why I walked away from the Delphi Tech bolt gun I had in my hands.
Link Posted: 1/11/2019 11:13:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rabbit-Slayer:
Where have you seen this information stating that the barrel extension needs to be opened up? The last I remember seeing from the Bullpup forums is ES Tactical gets the barrel extensions and gas blocks from DT.

The only people I have seen that has the bigger extractor is from InRange and a guy from YouTube with a recent 6.5creedmoore barrel from ES Tactical and he said nothing about modding his rifle. Only other person I can think of with a bigger extractor is Garandthumb, he did not say anything about a different extractor. Just that he received a new bolt from DT.

Where is this information your getting saying that they will need to be modified?
View Quote
Mr. Smith from ES Tactical stated on the Facebook MDR owners group that he is looking into what needs to be done in order to make the new extractors compatible with his conversion kit. If people aren't already followers of the group you should if you are interested in the MDR as it seems to have the most info and hands on impressions out of all the sites I have seen.
Link Posted: 1/13/2019 10:38:55 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rsolomon:

How many Indian MIM parts are in that one?

Don't worry, you'll undoubtedly receive the same fine customer service they've shown MDR owners... which is why I walked away from the Delphi Tech bolt gun I had in my hands.
View Quote
The bolt and barrel extension, for two.

No, really.

More seriously, the MIM isn't the problem... it's not fracturing, it's not physically the wrong size, the quality of the MIM they're using is fine. The problem I have with it is that due to the massive minimum order (relative to a niche firearms manufacturer) is large enough that it's been able to preclude rapid prototyping and changes. When you have to order a thousand of a given part, changing it up becomes more cost than it's worth. I figure that's why they've had to do so much damage control, sadly.
Link Posted: 1/13/2019 11:59:32 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pyotr_k:

The bolt and barrel extension, for two.

No, really.

More seriously, the MIM isn't the problem... it's not fracturing, it's not physically the wrong size, the quality of the MIM they're using is fine. The problem I have with it is that due to the massive minimum order (relative to a niche firearms manufacturer) is large enough that it's been able to preclude rapid prototyping and changes. When you have to order a thousand of a given part, changing it up becomes more cost than it's worth. I figure that's why they've had to do so much damage control, sadly.
View Quote
Oh I agree completely, though I'd word it slightly differently: it's not the fact that the parts are made by the MIM process that's the problem...

On S&W 3rd gens I look for the MIM fire control parts because they were better finished than the shoddy machining S&W was doing trying to get costs down.

I think many of us are on the same page that DT is locked into "Version 1" parts by virtue of having to place such massive orders to get the cost savings of MIM. Either they take a huge loss on the parts or they try and do retrofit machining - seems clear they're going with the latter
Link Posted: 1/13/2019 1:33:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rsolomon:

Oh I agree completely, though I'd word it slightly differently: it's not the fact that the parts are made by the MIM process that's the problem...

On S&W 3rd gens I look for the MIM fire control parts because they were better finished than the shoddy machining S&W was doing trying to get costs down.

I think many of us are on the same page that DT is locked into "Version 1" parts by virtue of having to place such massive orders to get the cost savings of MIM. Either they take a huge loss on the parts or they try and do retrofit machining - seems clear they're going with the latter
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Thinking about it, this time after a cup of coffee, it's not just the quantity they have to order when offshoring MIM like that... it's the substantial delay with each revision. They have to wait for the redesign, wait for the prototype, give it the go-ahead, wait for production, wait for shipment, wait for it to clear customs, and finally they can start using the parts maybe 6-18 months later. Each and every revision that requires a newly designed part to be molded overseas introduces that awful wait all over again.

But hey, MIM saves money, right?
Link Posted: 1/13/2019 2:55:22 PM EST
So you’re saying they should have gotten the design finalized and actually working, prior to mass production? You don’t say.
Link Posted: 1/14/2019 10:31:12 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doty_soty:
So you’re saying they should have gotten the design finalized and actually working, prior to mass production? You don’t say.
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I know, wild concept!

It really is frustrating that they rushed, rather than continuing development and prototyping before starting to place orders for bulk MIM parts from overseas. What's done is done, though... best thing they could possibly do now is to fix the design 100%, confirm the fix, and then restart production with the MDR 2.0 or whatever. Offer replacement to MDR owners at a reduced cost to gain a tiny bit of goodwill back... but most of all, DT needs to stop pissing on people and tell them it's raining.

More than anything, the hilariously blatant lies are hurting their rep. In this day and age of instant communications and widespread searches, they're doing real, lasting damage to themselves.
Link Posted: 1/14/2019 10:54:50 AM EST
MDR's only saving grace I think at this point is a flawless 5.56 release...with near perfect reviews...
Link Posted: 1/14/2019 1:19:44 PM EST
I don't know about you guys but I'm looking forward to more explanation videos by the most awkward man on the internet.

Link Posted: 1/14/2019 1:33:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kuraki:
I don't know about you guys but I'm looking forward to more explanation videos by the most awkward man on the internet.

https://i.imgur.com/saAiiRz.gif
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Reminds me of the goombas from the super Mario brothers movie.
Link Posted: 1/14/2019 2:48:57 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kuraki:
I don't know about you guys but I'm looking forward to more explanation videos by the most awkward man on the internet.

https://i.imgur.com/saAiiRz.gif
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cmon now, that's not fair!

Could you do better with the MDR for a product?!?!?!???
Link Posted: 1/14/2019 3:09:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2019 3:09:47 PM EST by Kuraki]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rsolomon:

cmon now, that's not fair!

Could you do better with the MDR for a product?!?!?!???
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hehe, good point. I guess if he doesn't believe anything he's saying, his affect becomes much more understandable.
Link Posted: Yesterday 9:03:57 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By newguy2k3:

Reminds me of the goombas from the super Mario brothers movie.
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HOLY SHIT!

Link Posted: Yesterday 2:25:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: Yesterday 2:25:42 PM EST by Manticore_Arms]
Link Posted: Yesterday 2:29:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Manticore_Arms:

Normally I try not to comment on this stuff, but....

Yup, releasing a 9+ pound 5.56 bullpup at a price point over $2,000....they are going to crush it in the marketplace.

Sven
Manticore Arms
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Well..didn't say it was going to be a selling success...but to save the brand and the MDR...DT needs a win...they've lost with the .308 (and will continue to do so until the gas system and other QC issues are addressed)...but the 5.56 has the best chance on actually working...
Link Posted: Yesterday 5:23:43 PM EST
So, is the only way for people to get their MDR to work by spending an extra $750 for the 5.56 conversion?
Link Posted: Yesterday 7:14:05 PM EST
None of the DT conversion kits are available yet...so if you want a 5.56...it has to be a full rifle right now...
Link Posted: Yesterday 11:33:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: Yesterday 11:33:57 PM EST by barnbwt]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By willi3d:
So, is the only way for people to get their MDR to work by spending an extra $750 for the 5.56 conversion?
View Quote
Is there any reason to believe that price won't also be increasing before they go on sale? BTW, a complete 5.56 RDB goes for less than that, now.

I just don't understand the heavy use of MIM for the MDR; it only makes sense economically when you start talking multiple dozens of thousands of parts. It's insane to commit to their use before making multiple thousands of examples for T&E as well as tolerance studies; if you can't hold the required geometry for function in 5000 rifles, you damn sure won't for 50,000. Not only do you need to be able to check the MIM parts coming in for conformity, you need to know what's acceptable in the first place, and that means lots of machined parts for initial test or pre-production. Was it ever realistic for Desert Tech to sell $2500 premium rifles in the kind of volume that justifies those production methods? Were they really expecting to make hundreds of millions of dollars on a single rifle? And if the only way to keep the price below $3000 (even though we all know they'd sell a good number of them at $3000 if they worked) was to use MIM, why was the project not abandoned? Seems like madness doubling down on itself.
Link Posted: Today 8:14:00 AM EST
The way I see it, if your buying a MDR a.5.56 conversion is a given....
Link Posted: Today 9:04:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: Today 9:07:01 AM EST by thehun06]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By barnbwt:

Is there any reason to believe that price won't also be increasing before they go on sale? BTW, a complete 5.56 RDB goes for less than that, now.

I just don't understand the heavy use of MIM for the MDR; it only makes sense economically when you start talking multiple dozens of thousands of parts. It's insane to commit to their use before making multiple thousands of examples for T&E as well as tolerance studies; if you can't hold the required geometry for function in 5000 rifles, you damn sure won't for 50,000. Not only do you need to be able to check the MIM parts coming in for conformity, you need to know what's acceptable in the first place, and that means lots of machined parts for initial test or pre-production. Was it ever realistic for Desert Tech to sell $2500 premium rifles in the kind of volume that justifies those production methods? Were they really expecting to make hundreds of millions of dollars on a single rifle? And if the only way to keep the price below $3000 (even though we all know they'd sell a good number of them at $3000 if they worked) was to use MIM, why was the project not abandoned? Seems like madness doubling down on itself.
View Quote
Knowing how the MIM industry works...DT is a very small fish in the pond...they are most likely are sitting on a minimum 10,000 quantity order contract (to even make it a sensible investment)...MIM can be great and better than most cast parts...the ticket is having a good supplier, with good tech and materials and the ability to hold tolerances. While I do not like how the rifle's metal parts are 90% MIM made in the Indian and Asian markets...it is safe to say that so far...the MIM parts are not the problem...but rather...a problem with the actual operating system as a whole...don't fool yourself guys with the recent "updated" gas plug...the 2019 gas plug is a band aid fix...all they did is introduce more gas into the system in all the previous settings (in just two weeks mind I ask, you really think it was properly tested against wear and tear....NOPE).

Just look at InRange's video how bad the MDR's recoil impulses are on setting 5 and 6...remember...the new plug setting 3 is the old setting 6...you think the SCAR17 was eating optics...the MDR will be right there, if not worst...

.308 MDR is dead to me until they revise the system properly...the 5.56 MDR has a chance...but as someone else pointed out...who really wants a heavy 8+ lb 5.56 bully when all the others are 7lbs and much cheaper and be proven reliable...unlike the MDR?
Link Posted: Today 9:24:00 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By barnbwt:

Is there any reason to believe that price won't also be increasing before they go on sale? BTW, a complete 5.56 RDB goes for less than that, now.

I just don't understand the heavy use of MIM for the MDR; it only makes sense economically when you start talking multiple dozens of thousands of parts. It's insane to commit to their use before making multiple thousands of examples for T&E as well as tolerance studies; if you can't hold the required geometry for function in 5000 rifles, you damn sure won't for 50,000. Not only do you need to be able to check the MIM parts coming in for conformity, you need to know what's acceptable in the first place, and that means lots of machined parts for initial test or pre-production. Was it ever realistic for Desert Tech to sell $2500 premium rifles in the kind of volume that justifies those production methods? Were they really expecting to make hundreds of millions of dollars on a single rifle? And if the only way to keep the price below $3000 (even though we all know they'd sell a good number of them at $3000 if they worked) was to use MIM, why was the project not abandoned? Seems like madness doubling down on itself.
View Quote
I don’t think they would sell well at 3k. It’s not a scar where people have “sf uses it!” hype. It’s just an untested neat looking rifle with big problems that’s absurdly heavy for what it is in 5.56. At the end of the day it’s just a combat styled rifle it doesn’t have a match trigger or crazy accuracy. Besides novelty what does it do in 5.56 that an AR or AUG or tavor or galil ace or an arsenal 5.56 at a far lower price point do? Or in .308 a ptr 91, a fal, ar10, SCAR, or all the other battle rifles. It’s very niche, and it doesn’t work well on top of that plus problems showing clear or racking out a live round as in range showed.
Link Posted: Today 9:57:43 AM EST
For someone only looking to run it in 5.56 I don't see the value in the mdr at all. It's overweight, crap plastics, questionable reliability, and on and on.

If someone just wants a 5.56 that works I'd look elsewhere.
Link Posted: Today 10:04:17 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kali_Refugee:
At the end of the day it’s just a combat styled rifle it doesn’t have a match trigger or crazy accuracy.
View Quote
Truer words have never been spoken.
Link Posted: Today 10:05:55 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By thehun06:

Knowing how the MIM industry works...DT is a very small fish in the pond...they are most likely are sitting on a minimum 10,000 quantity order contract (to even make it a sensible investment)...MIM can be great and better than most cast parts...the ticket is having a good supplier, with good tech and materials and the ability to hold tolerances. While I do not like how the rifle's metal parts are 90% MIM made in the Indian and Asian markets...it is safe to say that so far...the MIM parts are not the problem...but rather...a problem with the actual operating system as a whole...don't fool yourself guys with the recent "updated" gas plug...the 2019 gas plug is a band aid fix...all they did is introduce more gas into the system in all the previous settings (in just two weeks mind I ask, you really think it was properly tested against wear and tear....NOPE).

Just look at InRange's video how bad the MDR's recoil impulses are on setting 5 and 6...remember...the new plug setting 3 is the old setting 6...you think the SCAR17 was eating optics...the MDR will be right there, if not worst...

.308 MDR is dead to me until they revise the system properly...the 5.56 MDR has a chance...but as someone else pointed out...who really wants a heavy 8+ lb 5.56 bully when all the others are 7lbs and much cheaper and be proven reliable...unlike the MDR?
View Quote
I don't think one will run long enough to test the durability of the MIM parts.
Link Posted: Today 10:36:27 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AgeOne:

I don't think one will run long enough to test the durability of the MIM parts.
View Quote
Savagery but true...besides worrying about the MDR running...one has to also wonder how well the craptastic polymer will stand up over time...its probably the worst polymer I have felt/held on a firearm...worst than Keltec zytel...
Link Posted: Today 2:39:23 PM EST
Yeah when they don't run very well from the get go because of inherent flaws it makes it hard to troubleshoot further issues.
Link Posted: Today 3:23:51 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kali_Refugee:
I don’t think they would sell well at 3k. It’s not a scar where people have “sf uses it!” hype. It’s just an untested neat looking rifle with big problems that’s absurdly heavy for what it is in 5.56. At the end of the day it’s just a combat styled rifle it doesn’t have a match trigger or crazy accuracy. Besides novelty what does it do in 5.56 that an AR or AUG or tavor or galil ace or an arsenal 5.56 at a far lower price point do? Or in .308 a ptr 91, a fal, ar10, SCAR, or all the other battle rifles. It’s very niche, and it doesn’t work well on top of that plus problems showing clear or racking out a live round as in range showed.
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Originally Posted By Kali_Refugee:
Originally Posted By barnbwt:

Is there any reason to believe that price won't also be increasing before they go on sale? BTW, a complete 5.56 RDB goes for less than that, now.

I just don't understand the heavy use of MIM for the MDR; it only makes sense economically when you start talking multiple dozens of thousands of parts. It's insane to commit to their use before making multiple thousands of examples for T&E as well as tolerance studies; if you can't hold the required geometry for function in 5000 rifles, you damn sure won't for 50,000. Not only do you need to be able to check the MIM parts coming in for conformity, you need to know what's acceptable in the first place, and that means lots of machined parts for initial test or pre-production. Was it ever realistic for Desert Tech to sell $2500 premium rifles in the kind of volume that justifies those production methods? Were they really expecting to make hundreds of millions of dollars on a single rifle? And if the only way to keep the price below $3000 (even though we all know they'd sell a good number of them at $3000 if they worked) was to use MIM, why was the project not abandoned? Seems like madness doubling down on itself.
I don’t think they would sell well at 3k. It’s not a scar where people have “sf uses it!” hype. It’s just an untested neat looking rifle with big problems that’s absurdly heavy for what it is in 5.56. At the end of the day it’s just a combat styled rifle it doesn’t have a match trigger or crazy accuracy. Besides novelty what does it do in 5.56 that an AR or AUG or tavor or galil ace or an arsenal 5.56 at a far lower price point do? Or in .308 a ptr 91, a fal, ar10, SCAR, or all the other battle rifles. It’s very niche, and it doesn’t work well on top of that plus problems showing clear or racking out a live round as in range showed.
I thought DT *was* "special forces supplier" type outfit, but more like B&T in that they are more exclusive.

It was originally supposed to have many of those things you list, btw (though maybe heavily implied vs in writing)
Link Posted: Today 3:26:51 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By thehun06:
Knowing how the MIM industry works...DT is a very small fish in the pond...they are most likely are sitting on a minimum 10,000 quantity order contract (to even make it a sensible investment)...MIM can be great and better than most cast parts...the ticket is having a good supplier, with good tech and materials and the ability to hold tolerances. While I do not like how the rifle's metal parts are 90% MIM made in the Indian and Asian markets...it is safe to say that so far...the MIM parts are not the problem...but rather...a problem with the actual operating system as a whole...don't fool yourself guys with the recent "updated" gas plug...the 2019 gas plug is a band aid fix...all they did is introduce more gas into the system in all the previous settings (in just two weeks mind I ask, you really think it was properly tested against wear and tear....NOPE).

Just look at InRange's video how bad the MDR's recoil impulses are on setting 5 and 6...remember...the new plug setting 3 is the old setting 6...you think the SCAR17 was eating optics...the MDR will be right there, if not worst...

.308 MDR is dead to me until they revise the system properly...the 5.56 MDR has a chance...but as someone else pointed out...who really wants a heavy 8+ lb 5.56 bully when all the others are 7lbs and much cheaper and be proven reliable...unlike the MDR?
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Originally Posted By thehun06:
Originally Posted By barnbwt:

Is there any reason to believe that price won't also be increasing before they go on sale? BTW, a complete 5.56 RDB goes for less than that, now.

I just don't understand the heavy use of MIM for the MDR; it only makes sense economically when you start talking multiple dozens of thousands of parts. It's insane to commit to their use before making multiple thousands of examples for T&E as well as tolerance studies; if you can't hold the required geometry for function in 5000 rifles, you damn sure won't for 50,000. Not only do you need to be able to check the MIM parts coming in for conformity, you need to know what's acceptable in the first place, and that means lots of machined parts for initial test or pre-production. Was it ever realistic for Desert Tech to sell $2500 premium rifles in the kind of volume that justifies those production methods? Were they really expecting to make hundreds of millions of dollars on a single rifle? And if the only way to keep the price below $3000 (even though we all know they'd sell a good number of them at $3000 if they worked) was to use MIM, why was the project not abandoned? Seems like madness doubling down on itself.
Knowing how the MIM industry works...DT is a very small fish in the pond...they are most likely are sitting on a minimum 10,000 quantity order contract (to even make it a sensible investment)...MIM can be great and better than most cast parts...the ticket is having a good supplier, with good tech and materials and the ability to hold tolerances. While I do not like how the rifle's metal parts are 90% MIM made in the Indian and Asian markets...it is safe to say that so far...the MIM parts are not the problem...but rather...a problem with the actual operating system as a whole...don't fool yourself guys with the recent "updated" gas plug...the 2019 gas plug is a band aid fix...all they did is introduce more gas into the system in all the previous settings (in just two weeks mind I ask, you really think it was properly tested against wear and tear....NOPE).

Just look at InRange's video how bad the MDR's recoil impulses are on setting 5 and 6...remember...the new plug setting 3 is the old setting 6...you think the SCAR17 was eating optics...the MDR will be right there, if not worst...

.308 MDR is dead to me until they revise the system properly...the 5.56 MDR has a chance...but as someone else pointed out...who really wants a heavy 8+ lb 5.56 bully when all the others are 7lbs and much cheaper and be proven reliable...unlike the MDR?
I'm just saying, for the volumes they were doing, billet machining seems more practical. Maybe foreign MIM is even more affordable than I imagine, though. Still a crazy move to go to that method out of the gate on a complicated mechanism, regardless the volume.

Shitty MIM (tolerances, QC, as well as design) helped doom the R51 btw; everything but the frame, slide, and barrel is sheetmetal stamping or MIM.
Link Posted: Today 3:51:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: Today 3:54:04 PM EST by thehun06]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By barnbwt:

I'm just saying, for the volumes they were doing, billet machining seems more practical. Maybe foreign MIM is even more affordable than I imagine, though. Still a crazy move to go to that method out of the gate on a complicated mechanism, regardless the volume.

Shitty MIM (tolerances, QC, as well as design) helped doom the R51 btw; everything but the frame, slide, and barrel is sheetmetal stamping or MIM.
View Quote
You have to remember where some of the engineering team came from...Sig...Sig has been using foreign MIM manufacturers for years.

I don't have a problem with MIM...if they are of quality. The 200rd break-in requirement tells me that the tolerances are inconsistent and they need to be worn in...
Link Posted: Today 4:08:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By thehun06:

You have to remember where some of the engineering team came from...Sig...Sig has been using foreign MIM manufacturers for years.

I don't have a problem with MIM...if they are of quality. The 200rd break-in requirement tells me that the tolerances are inconsistent and they need to be worn in...
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That's not exactly correct. They could be and likely are incredibly consistent. But the complexity of the mechanism likely requires a greater level of precision than the process stability is able to produce to an acceptable level without requiring hand fitting, something the process is used to eliminate to begin with. So nominal dimensions are sized to MMC that will assemble, but with tolerance stacking possibly not function reliably until "broken in."

It's a rube goldberg contraption that likely would require break in even if each and every component were machined from billet.
Link Posted: Today 4:18:56 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Kuraki:

That's not exactly correct. They could be and likely are incredibly consistent. But the complexity of the mechanism likely requires a greater level of precision than the process stability is able to produce to an acceptable level without requiring hand fitting, something the process is used to eliminate to begin with. So nominal dimensions are sized to MMC that will assemble, but with tolerance stacking possibly not function reliably until "broken in."

It's a rube goldberg contraption that likely would require break in even if each and every component were machined from billet.
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I can see that...
Link Posted: Today 5:23:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By thehun06:
I can see that...
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Originally Posted By thehun06:
Originally Posted By Kuraki:

That's not exactly correct. They could be and likely are incredibly consistent. But the complexity of the mechanism likely requires a greater level of precision than the process stability is able to produce to an acceptable level without requiring hand fitting, something the process is used to eliminate to begin with. So nominal dimensions are sized to MMC that will assemble, but with tolerance stacking possibly not function reliably until "broken in."

It's a rube goldberg contraption that likely would require break in even if each and every component were machined from billet.
I can see that...
Don't get me wrong, it's not optimal, and I think using so many MIM components led to a lot of the problems this rifle has, but in the way that was described earlier, where tooling expense, lead time, the design element of taking a machined prototype and turning it into a sintering mold (and getting something in exactly the same form out) and minimum buys caused DT to accept the manufacture of something unproven simply to have a gun to release.
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