I have been trying to get my Bullpup Forum MDR Group Buy refund since JANUARY :-(

99.9% of the time I call I get voicemail or a not in service message.
The two times I have gotten Jon on the phone he was extremely nice and understanding....but beyond that I get crickets.

The last time I spoke with Jon was Friday August 24th and he was very cordial, but said he was in a hurry because he was driving.  He asked me to send him another email requesting the group buy refund.

So, I sent him three emails from three different email accounts and he did not respond to any of them.  Over a week later and I still have not received my refund.

This is completely ridiculous :-(

Tag a company rep here, maybe you'll get some action, maybe not, but there's a rep here.

@sr90

Given your situation I'd be driving to SC to have a chat in person.

Jon, SGT_P is a member here too. @sgt_p

https://www.ar15.com/member/user.html?id=119401

Maybe 5 or 6 years ago his website, bullpupforum.com was looking for someone to moderate the AUG subforum. I expressed interest in it back then and we spoke about it. Luckily it never came about, but the one thing I took away was his offer to create separate username "shill" accounts for myself. So, when you see that he has gone totally and completely radio silent on his website, I'd guess he still visits and posts under a new account. Have you noticed anyone new with mod privileges on his website?

This also isn’t desert tech so I don’t think sr90 can help you, this is the bullpup group buy. Not sure when the group buy submitted the order but I did order after it was closed as I asked to join it and got mine already from DTs website directly so part of me thinks that the guy running it sent the order in later then when it closed.

Well I see them for sale on gunbroker but don't want to get a paperweight that doesn't run. It's a gamble.

Regarding your comment about "shill" accounts, I don't know what he might have told you, but there is a school of thought that prefers to separate user accounts (i.e. those that take part in the discussion) from that person's "official" duties, and thus there will be two accounts.  The "official" account is purely for administrative purposes and things like thread closures, warnings, and such.  It's just a way of keeping the duties separate even if it does add a little overhead to using it.  That said, if the extra accounts were for promoting or stirring sh!t, then I'd have walked away too.

AFAIK, there's usually factory involvement in group buys - thus the lower price.  So an organizer arranges a bulk deal with the factory (occasionally a distributor) and gets price $X in exchange for pre-paying for Y number of items.  So I'd bet that the MDR group buy money was paid to DT a *LONG* time ago, and organizer is now stuck trying to get a portion of that large total payment of money back from DT...

Even without the well-documented delays on DT refunds, you've got the group buy potentially falling below the committed minimum - which is why an awful lot of group buys are non-refundable.  Of course the later in time one gets, the less likely an actual refund becomes....  Best of luck to all involved.

DT has nothing to do with the BPF group buy.

it's a shame that this product is failing, however, I think the bigger issue is how desert tech handled it.  I was on the group buy for many years, and wow did that take patience.  DT would announce that they were going to make a big announcements, and everyone would get their hopes out, and then nothing substantial would ever be announced.  This went on for 3 years, and the hype train continued.

IMO they were too ambitious on the project, trying to do too many things, but didn't have the technical capabilities to produce it.  That's ok, but DT should have tried to be candid about the issues facing the rifle, instead of all the fake hype marketing.  Furthermore, criticizing DT and the handling of the MDR has been meet with severe scorn by Nick Young, Mac at military arms channel, and several other board posters on forums, who I won't be surprised either work for DT, or are paid by DT.

However, regardless of the media campaign, if the rifle has issues, people will find out.  Better to be candid about it, then defensive, and dismissive of consumers opinions.  Personally, this experience has left a bad taste in my mouth, and has tainted my opinion of DT in general.

Although I don’t know as I am not with DT but it does not seem that DT did. The comments from sr90 in this thread and his account on the BP forum look like it was more of a dealer pricing and the order had not been placed with them with the full payment at the time of those posts.

How is it failing?  It is shipping, it's being bought, and it's starting to make it to secondary resellers through channel distribution.

It's failing in the sense that it hasn't lived up to the hype.  The rifle is still riddled with issues, which is evident from the overabundance of negative feedback by current owners.  I am active on several gun forums, and I've never seen so many current owners complaining about a firearm, except maybe century.

Also, many of the group buy orders have still not be fulfilled.  How is that even possible?  These guys have been waiting for 2-3 years, and still waiting, when supposedly, this rifle is 100% ready to go?

Btw, do you work for, or have any affiliation with Desert Tech?  I've noticed you are quick to reply on post to defend the MDR to death.

Ah...accuse me of being a shill for the company...classic.  No, not employed by them, not working with or for them in any capacity.  IF you've read my posts, being as active as you are, you'd have seen that I've said this several times in the past.

As for the group buy, right now I'm not willing to drop the blame on DT's shoulders given the lack of communications and responsiveness that a lot are seeing with the group buy organizer.

Regarding "living up to the hype", I think in a lot of ways it has.  It brings several concepts together in one package, and despite the issues, once those are ironed out it seems to work fine.  The people complaining seem to be the same group, but on different forums.  I'm not downplaying the problems, it has had them, but I think we need to step back and look at the bigger picture.  The issues tend to be similar or within a small group of known problems; not a bunch of random glitches.  That points to QC issues, either on their part as final QC, or a vendor's QC on the parts.  Newly found issues seem to have dried up.

So yeah, there have been issues, but I would say that the design is "failing", unless I was on stage as part of a dramatic production.  It has had issues, no more than most new designs have had that have been released by even large companies recently.

YMMV, and that's fine. I prefer to divorce emotional reaction from my thinking.

Oh, so you're saying the Group Buy guy has a dozen boxed MDRs in his living room, then?

Here's the thing about the hype; it wasn't hype, it was the actual stated project goals by the manufacturer during preorder.  Rifle at present is heavier, more expensive, less accurate, and less reliable than was claimed while they were taking preorders & delaying production.  They also came in years late.  Writing was already on the wall simply because of the delay, but many of the folks in too deep to get out were still hoping the rifle would do 'something' that would make the other failings worthwhile.  It doesn't, and can't, so they start complaining now that they've finally arrived at their unsatisfactory conclusion.  So it's on them for having irrational expectations, but it's on DT for luring them into that mindset through all the troubles & delays.

Also, though you may not have a financial interest in DT, clearly there's some sort of connection, since as best I can tell this is no one --'literally' literally no one-- who has defended them so diligently, for YEARS, here & elsewhere.  It's actually pretty much the only time I've run across your posts, to be honest, is when the MDR is being discussed.  If you're not being paid, you should sue for back wages, since in all honesty they owe you thousands of dollars in spokesman fees at this point.

I'm going to call it a failure for one reason alone. Stuck cases and ripped rims. Especially with a suppressor the gas system is finicky.

Put it on the wrong setting for the ammo or suppressor and it WILL rip the rim off a case and down the gun until you get something to run down the barrel and knock it out. For the designed purpose of the gun that is an instant fail to me. Sure other rifles will have extraction issues when overgassed but on other designs the extractor generally slips and it's not an issue to just cycle the BCG again to remove the case.

I'm not an engineer but to me it seems to need more extractor surface area first of all, move the port further down the barrel, looser chamber, more mass to the BCG or a combination of the 4.

The flimsy handguard and attachment method are pretty poor to me as well as the trigger and linkage but those alone don't warrant a hard fail in my book.

Other than being late and having teething issues, what does it not do that it was claimed it could do?

1.  Configurable forward ejection?  Check.
2.  Swappable barrel design to use other calibers?  Check.
3.  Adjustable gas system?  Check.
4.  Decent trigger?  Check.
5.  Decent accuracy?  Check.

As for the BPF GB coordinator, I don't claim to know why there are delays, but I have my suspicions as to the reasons.

Either put up some sort of proof, or STFU.  Unlike some, I stick to this forum on ARFcom because that's where my interest lies.  So, either put up or shut up.

Just to add. My mdr has been solid since the gas block replacement and prior I had no ripped cases.
To my understanding that was only with iwi stuff, which I normally use but I have been buying hornady instead. It has good accuracy with decent ammo and is a good rifle. I too have suspicions about group buy and glad I didnt take that route. There has been no communication and it seems the order/ money wasn’t even sent in until recently.
You can blame DT for the delays but the GB doesn’t seem to be on their end

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Ive enjoyed mine. Nice set up for hog hunting. Wish theyd send me the new gas valve but this set up works.

I GOT MY REFUND TODAY!!!!

Apparently Jon sent out a check two weeks ago but it got lost in the mail, however, he made the situation right today and took care of me :-)

Congrats!  It sucks to see that the USPS is an equal opportunity screwer-overer...In the past two months they've "delivered" two parcels to addresses other than mine and refused to honor the claim...and the most recent delivery spent five days being dispatched from the Atlanta hub only to be scanned back into the hub five or six hours later.  I know there are some good USPS employees, but they need to privatize and have some major accountability.

"Lost in the mail"

Of your five, I'd argue the trigger and accuracy have not been up to the standards 1) expected by people shelling out this much coin, and 2) from a company like Desert Tech who's bag is accuracy & awesome triggers.  Wasn't 1MOA or better the advertised goal, or was that just implied?  From what I gather, it's generally a bit higher than that in practice (which is still pretty good for an autoloader all told).  Trigger is legit not-impressive for an auto-loader; the RDB's is better, at least that's what I found at SHOT this year.  I must have missed DT providing accuracy figures ahead of the release; you'd think they would want to brag on the gun's performance there if it was noteworthy.

Swappable barrel is still a tentative 'success.'  It's still a bit early yet to see exactly how far DT takes this feature; if there are a range of barrels to choose from that are actually available (they're like the fourth company to promise such a thing) that would be a very noteworthy achievement.  At this point it's just 308 & 556, and no individual conversion kits are available because they're all going to assembled rifles, right?  The 308-and-556 in the same gun chassis was the noteworthy aspect I remember being promoted early on.  If the choices remain few or extremely expensive (>75% of the gun's cost) the barrel swapping doesn't count as a success.

Gas system adjustment sure sounds like it could use some work from all these reports of torn rims.  Seems like it's very sensitive to changing variables, which is forgivable, but the failure mode completely tying up the gun is not.  Even the RDB's odd double/triple feed failure when undergassed won't cripple the gun, it's just awkward to clear, and yet there is still justified condemnation for it.

So we're left with the forward ejection, which I gather works pretty well; good job, Desert Tech.  That's the one feature I will say does set the gun apart from others, even if I don't care for exactly how it was implemented.  And my point about the cost, weight, reliability, accuracy, and schedule coming in poorer than expected or advertised definitely still stands.  And those five points are pretty darn important for any firearm, no matter how 'boutique' or 'niche'

As far as your demand for 'proof' or whatever of your slavish devotion to DT? I'm pretty sure the site won't let me add every one of your quotes in this thread to a single post.  I don't recall a single time you've not refuted legitimate complaints about DT or the rifle, or not made excuses for the company's misbehavior or poor performance, or not taken DTs excuses at face value time & time again.  And you haven't even ignored hardly any of them, either.  It straight-up seems like I'm conversing with a spokesman or employee with a personal interest in defeating criticism or complaints.  I'm not 'accusing' you of anything, I'm making an observation.  If you're just a fan, you're a darn focused and diligent one

"Lost in the mail."  Exactly.  In accounting, every day a bill goes unpaid without suffering legal action is a victory...just saying.

Like I said, either put up some verifiable proof, or STFU.  I am not and have not ever worked or cooperated with DT.  Now, if that isn't good enough for you, or you don't like it, then that is *your* problem, not mine.  All you've posted is innuendo and anecdote...sort of like the stuff the Democrats are trying to destroy Trump and Kavanaugh with...  I guess you take direction really well...

Take it to PM so we don't get this thread locked.

So... The 5.56 MDR exists and I shot it last Saturday in Hiawatha.

I'm underwhelmed coming from the AUG, but it seems nice enough that I can see it being an option for someone looking for a 5.56 bullpup.

Underwhelmed for what reasons?

How was the brass?

Went against my better judgement and picked one up.  Disappointed it didn’t already come with the 6 position gas valve, so I now have request one and wait for it, plus pay for shipping, but it is what it is.  Hopefully it will work right out of the box.

One thing I already don’t like is that you need a tool (T25 Torx wrench) to remove the handguard to access the gas valve.  Who thought that was a good idea on a combat rifle?  You’re in the middle of a fight and need to swap the gas setting to the Adverse position to continue on, and you need to find your T25 wrench?  Seems like a very retrograde step for a modern weapon to not have tool less takedown to get to a crucial part.  Even holes in the handguard to stick in something from the side to turn the plug would have been a step up.  Plus, the handguard has a pushpin in addition to the Torx screws, so I’m not sure why they wouldn’t have just left the screws off.

Anyone keep the screws loose so they can use the pushpin only for handguard installation and removal?

LOL, who ever said the MDR is a combat rifle? Right now they are combatting QC issues and disgruntled owners/keyboard commandos.

Someone has designed a wrench that fits under the handguard to adjust the gas settings without removing the handguard. Maybe you can use some combat paracord to attach it to your combat rifle.

This was a charity event where you purchase raffle tickets. The vendor stations you want to shoot at accept your raffle tickets as method of "payment" and by giving them the ticket(s) you're also entered into the drawing of what that particular vendor is giving away. Each vendor decided how much ammo to provide per ticket. For example, one vendor would give a full mag for a $5 ticket, when others (silencerco cough cough) would only give 3rds for a $5 ticket.

Desert Tech was just a handful of ammo for a ticket, but what little I shot, I didn't get to examine the spent casings. So no idea on the condition of the brass.

I'm solidly in the church of AUG, but as a lover of guns I'll try anything. In my limited time with the 556 MDR I didn't see anything about the gun that would make me choose it over the AUG. I thought maybe, just maybe I'll feel the "magic" of what everyone wants these for, but alas no. It was the same underwhelmed let down I felt after buying and shooting a tavor. Instead of being the newcomer king of 556 bullpup, it's much more expensive than an AUG, is built by a "boutique" gun company with limited history, has not been proven by users as being "combat" ready, and may or may not suffer from the same issues people are reporting with the full-size MDR.

Is my review heavily biased, probably, but I'm basing that gun off of a firearm I know like the back of my hand - the AUG.
That's not to say I thought it was a bad gun, just not my preference for what it offers over what I already have.

One last off topic point, a guy there dropped something like $300+  worth of tickets at Desert Tech's booth convinced he was going to win the MDR... Guy didn't win.

I’m sorry, but between my scope, magnifier, laser, IR illuminator, VFG, bipod, jerky holder, spare change purse, and rail mounted hydration bag, I simply don’t have the room for a wrench.

I got my shipping notification Friday and mine should be at my FFL on Tuesday.  I am not sure when I will get a chance to throw some lead down range but I will give my initial impression of it sometime next week.

Fair enough assessment, thanks.

For those who have an MDR, can you eject live rounds through the ejection chute? Mine cannot, bullet seems to be making contact with part of the chute as it's getting pushed into it by the "kicker".

Spent brass ejects no problem.
Calling DT CS on monday....

Mine will eject live rounds through the ejection chute. I just have to rack the rifle really hard. Speed is the key when ejecting live rounds.

Jesse.

Known issue. Either knock the sharp edge off of the chute or shoot it until everything breaks in and smoothes out on its own.

Before you call them, did you pull back "vigorously" on the charging handle and then release it to go forward?  I had a similar issue with one of my two and was asked that question when I called.  Simply pulling back as if you were going to charge the rifle might not be enough.

IMO, this is due to the spring tension used on the clip that holds the spent case in the chute combined with a lack of radiused edges on it and perhaps too tight tolerances.

I have pulled it vigorously several times.

The spring tension is fine, I can snap a round into the sideplate without much effort when it's off the rifle. The issue seems to be that the round is getting kicked into the ejection chute about 1/4" forward of the rear of the chute which causes the bullet to make contact with the angled portion of the chute.

If it were to seat all the way rearward in the chute, this isn't an issue.

The reason I mentioned "vigorously" is that the bolt moving backwards helps determine how much force the offside rammer has to use against the case/cartridge.  Still, I would like to see a little more space so that the whole thing is more forgiving.

It’s time to call BS on this whole thing.  Being able to eject live rounds for unloading or clearing misfires is a fundamental function of a rifle.  Virtually no other modern gun, including the cheapest AR, requires special handling of the charging handle such that it won’t work unless it’s  “vigorous” enough or done exactly right.  Also, virtually no other modern semi-auto requires a break-in period and loads of preinstalled white lithium grease to get the parts worn down enough for reliable functioning, or is this finicky with ammo and requires immediately paying $10 to order a new gas plug that it should have come with in the first place.  Why can I take my SCAR 17, Ruger SR762, or almost any other military style 308/762 autoloader, give it a quick once, shoot almost 308 or 762 military round, and be able to eject live rounds with just normal force on the charging handle right out of the box from day one?  If it were a Keltec, people would say what do you expect, it’s a Keltec, but how is this OK for a $2500 Desert Tech?  Just boggles the mind.

Hands-on with the 5.56 MDR

I guess you're ok with SIG and other companies bringing completely new products to market that have growing pains; it's part of being an early adopter.  Don't like it, don't buy one.  Easy peasey.

Really?  Come on.  You are not in the same situation.  Propping yourself up there pretty high from where you really are.

Honestly from what I see the only person defending them like this is you.  I can read a post and not look to see who posted it and know it was you.  I am curious what your MDR to non MDR post count is.

Given that I've been a member of the current AR-15.com since it was launched and a member of the original board and mailing list, I don't see what my subject specific post count has to do with anything.  I have to have X# of posts to be contribute?  Really?

JTX, could you chill? You are instigating for no good reason.

For entertainment value, last night I reread this entire thread to date and took a few amusing screen shots of postings.  However, I did come across one of my OWN and realized now that we've had several ARFCOMmers post info on receiving their (generally defective on arrival) MDRs, I owe  a public acknowledgement that:

Click To View Spoiler

Click To View Spoiler

Attached File

Attached File

Found way earlier in the thread, seemed apt for @Supperman - hope he got one of these!

MDR 5.56 Update and Warranty Break-in Info

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5dm8L9ElpQ&feature=share