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Here's an idea. If DT is reading this, send one of your rifles off to Battlefield Vegas.
See how it holds up there. The PSA Premium guns are holding up the same as the Colt guns, yet people call them trash. Let's see if it can hold up as well as a $600 cheap AR. |
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Quoted: Well, and then declares it 'proven' after a mere 200 rounds, while dismissing those asserting that the rifle is only suited for occasional use... Back to technical stuff... Logically, if those port numbers are right, I am fairly certain the earlier issue must have been chambers. Simply running the gun harder was tearing brass before, else it short-stroked. A stronger extractor alone would be a *very* poor solution, and would do nothing to make the gun less sensitive to short-stroking. If the guns are indeed working better (and less sensitive to gas setting) then logically neither the rehashed gas settings nor extractor --the claimed improvements-- are the X factor. Since the extractor change requires a full-on barrel swap (anyone think it's odd that such drastic & expensive changes were needed simply for a bit more rim grip that shouldn't be necessary in a properly functioning gun anyway?) I'm left to conclude that the fix lies in the barrel or gas block (the extension should not impact the cycle function). Did anything in the gas block change besides the port sizes? Starting volume change? Blowoff vents change at all? If not, the chamber is all that's left. Am I missing something? View Quote |
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Here's an idea. If DT is reading this, send one of your rifles off to Battlefield Vegas. See how it holds up there. The PSA Premium guns are holding up the same as the Colt guns, yet people call them trash. Let's see if it can hold up as well as a $600 cheap AR. View Quote |
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Quoted: Do we have new figures on the gas ports & gas plug apertures for the new barrels, yet? I'm curious (highly curious) if the gas settings overlap what they've done before...which by process of elimination means something about the chamber is what was likely the *actual* cause all along. It's *possible* they are simply yanking the cases harder with that larger extractor, but even then you should see evidence at the shoulders & base of extremely violent extraction, and badly damaged rims. If "everything's fine now" as KFB is claiming, and all that really changed was the barrel...I'd be looking at Faxon (it wouldn't be the first time they've sent out guns with bad chambers). To be fair, chamber QC can be tricky since reamers can fail in ways that a gauge won't detect, but will still cause stuck cases like a MFer. If Faxon had no guns to test fire their barrels with, and DT didn't bother to before shipping them out due to their badly slipped schedule of preorders (or played around with their in-house ammo loads so they would run enough for a nominal 'test fire'), that could be how they got past QC. View Quote |
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I dont think DT changed anything other than the gas plug and extractor. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Well, and then declares it 'proven' after a mere 200 rounds, while dismissing those asserting that the rifle is only suited for occasional use... Back to technical stuff... Logically, if those port numbers are right, I am fairly certain the earlier issue must have been chambers. Simply running the gun harder was tearing brass before, else it short-stroked. A stronger extractor alone would be a *very* poor solution, and would do nothing to make the gun less sensitive to short-stroking. If the guns are indeed working better (and less sensitive to gas setting) then logically neither the rehashed gas settings nor extractor --the claimed improvements-- are the X factor. Since the extractor change requires a full-on barrel swap (anyone think it's odd that such drastic & expensive changes were needed simply for a bit more rim grip that shouldn't be necessary in a properly functioning gun anyway?) I'm left to conclude that the fix lies in the barrel or gas block (the extension should not impact the cycle function). Did anything in the gas block change besides the port sizes? Starting volume change? Blowoff vents change at all? If not, the chamber is all that's left. Am I missing something? ETA: Disregard, apparently. I now suspect we'll start seeing medium-round-count failures in MDRs with these upgrades. The instant you crack a stuck case loose, there's nothing resisting the force you've applied to do so; unless your gas pulse is *just right* to break the case loose & not impart a huge amount of energy to the op-rod, you're unavoidably accelerating that BCG faster than it was meant to be. No way the receiver & ejection chute components hold up to full-on abuse long term. Remember, that's why there was an adjustable gas system in the first place; to avoid battering the BCG against the rear of the gun. |
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The MDR would recoil itself to death under full auto fire...I think at the price point charged...can it beat the 125K+ round fired SCAR...no chance View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Here's an idea. If DT is reading this, send one of your rifles off to Battlefield Vegas. See how it holds up there. The PSA Premium guns are holding up the same as the Colt guns, yet people call them trash. Let's see if it can hold up as well as a $600 cheap AR. |
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They're not replacing the barrels. I mistakenly thought they were changing out the whole extension. Apparently the "case support" is sandwiched behind the barrel by the extension. It surrounds the case head and has reliefs for the extractor and lower bolt lugs since both protrude from the bolt face. It needs to be replaced by one with a wider relief to accommodate the new extractor. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Do we have new figures on the gas ports & gas plug apertures for the new barrels, yet? I'm curious (highly curious) if the gas settings overlap what they've done before...which by process of elimination means something about the chamber is what was likely the *actual* cause all along. It's *possible* they are simply yanking the cases harder with that larger extractor, but even then you should see evidence at the shoulders & base of extremely violent extraction, and badly damaged rims. If "everything's fine now" as KFB is claiming, and all that really changed was the barrel...I'd be looking at Faxon (it wouldn't be the first time they've sent out guns with bad chambers). To be fair, chamber QC can be tricky since reamers can fail in ways that a gauge won't detect, but will still cause stuck cases like a MFer. If Faxon had no guns to test fire their barrels with, and DT didn't bother to before shipping them out due to their badly slipped schedule of preorders (or played around with their in-house ammo loads so they would run enough for a nominal 'test fire'), that could be how they got past QC. |
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Quoted: I doubt they put the new barrel extensions (which are different to clear the extractor, unless something changed) on the old barrels. Like I said, I have to wonder if there's something subtly different about the chamber than before. I thought several users had found them to be a bit on the tight side, using Cerrosafe as a casting material? Combine a tight, sticky chamber with a very short, lightweight gas system with lots of dwell time for that full-length barrel...it's a recipe for a gun that fights itself during the extraction cycle. The low mass of the moving parts can simply be brought to a halt too easily by all the energy that's lost, and even if you do drive it hard enough to overcome the sticktion, unless you nail it *just right* you are now driving the carrier to much higher velocities than needed (which we have to assume plays hell with that special extraction mechanism at the end of bolt travel, as well as just generally abusing the receiver parts). Simply having enough extractor to overcome that sticktion won't help reliability for long; you'll just start seeing other parts wear & break instead of disposable case rims. Like trying to knock a croquet ball from beneath your foot's pressure with a very hard hammer, while precisely controlling how far it will roll; very tricky, and impossible if you figure in the variety of ammo you have to contend with. A looser chamber with a more generous throat/leade won't be as accurate, but it will allow cases to extract more easily (and it's not like the MDR can take advantage of the barrel's mechanical accuracy anyway). If that's indeed what made the difference, that's really good info to know, for a variety of reasons. ETA: Disregard, apparently. I now suspect we'll start seeing medium-round-count failures in MDRs with these upgrades. The instant you crack a stuck case loose, there's nothing resisting the force you've applied to do so; unless your gas pulse is *just right* to break the case loose & not impart a huge amount of energy to the op-rod, you're unavoidably accelerating that BCG faster than it was meant to be. No way the receiver & ejection chute components hold up to full-on abuse long term. Remember, that's why there was an adjustable gas system in the first place; to avoid battering the BCG against the rear of the gun. View Quote |
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Quoted:Since the extractor change requires a full-on barrel swap (anyone think it's odd that such drastic & expensive changes were needed simply for a bit more rim grip that shouldn't be necessary in a properly functioning gun anyway?) I'm left to conclude that the fix lies in the barrel or gas block (the extension should not impact the cycle function). View Quote Carolina's First Defense FB Post |
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DT outsourcing the repairs now? Are they having that many returned for the "upgrades"?
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DT outsourcing the repairs now? Are they having that many returned for the "upgrades"? View Quote DT tries to do something to help their customers and it gets spun into some nefarious plot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. |
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Maybe it's one of those exploding ones from the Marx Brothers movies?
Nothing in my post indicated anything about a "nefarious" plot, your bitterness and victimization attitude has you seeing things that aren't there. And don't start with the whole "after twelve years of personal attacks......................... |
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Call it a preemptive intervention...given how negative you are regarding the MDR, I take *everything* you say not only with skepticism, but in the worst possible manner because that's usually how you mean it...before scurrying back to play innocent.
And this has gotten way past any sort of tech discussion...well done. |
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Call it a preemptive intervention...given how negative you are regarding the MDR, I take *everything* you say not only with skepticism, but in the worst possible manner because that's usually how you mean it...before scurrying back to play innocent. And this has gotten way past any sort of tech discussion...well done. View Quote |
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Call it a preemptive intervention...given how negative you are regarding the MDR, I take *everything* you say not only with skepticism, but in the worst possible manner because that's usually how you mean it...before scurrying back to play innocent. And this has gotten way past any sort of tech discussion...well done. View Quote I wanted it to work out, I really did, but I've moved on. Everything I've seen here makes me glad I kept my RFB. |
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No, they're one of DT's larger dealers and were granted permission to do the upgrades locally for their customers. At the time, the turnaround for the upgrades could be 3-4 weeks, but CFD was able to do it within a matter of hours since the volume was much lower. DT tries to do something to help their customers and it gets spun into some nefarious plot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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DT outsourcing the repairs now? Are they having that many returned for the "upgrades"? DT tries to do something to help their customers and it gets spun into some nefarious plot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I'm still having a hard time visualizing what that ring is doing; there's few pictures of the breech out there, and I sure can't recall that level of detail from messing with one at SHOT. I thought it was basically just a "deeper" AR-style bolt head & extension, with a slot milled through the deeper "cup" for the case to slide across. It's got reliefs for the bolt protrusions, so it's basically just taking up space in there? |
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I must admit, even though it is extra parts it was very foresighted for DT to design the barrel this way to allow for future improvements/upgrades of their system without having to replace the entire barrel. Is this something carried over from their bolt guns?
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I must admit, even though it is extra parts it was very foresighted for DT to design the barrel this way to allow for future improvements/upgrades of their system without having to replace the entire barrel. Is this something carried over from their bolt guns? View Quote "Crap, we have a problem and need to improve extraction. What's the cheapest fix? What's the cheapest part we can replace" I think they made the biggest change they could without getting into the barrel or extension. I could be wrong |
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What I was trying to say is that the design of the ring on the barrel turned out to be a brilliant design as it allowed them to upgrade/improve percieved extraction issues without changing the whole barrel. Ingenious foresight!
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It sure looks like it's just a feed cone...I guess this way maybe the barrel is easier to make. Kinda weird that you'd need bullet guiding features that far into an extension that already has a guiding cone further back. I wonder if it is really necessary, or just a mechanically pleasing feature.
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New "military" cold weather testing video of MDR shows two out of the three contact points are actually heat-sinks.
Appears to be civilian testing not military. Cold Weather Testing |
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I got my RMA Friday and will be sending my rifle in on Monday or Tuesday to have all of the improvements done. I got my Silencerco muzzle brake and ASR mount the other day so when I get it back I will throw some lead down range hopefully. I think they are doing a good job at listening to peoples problems and suggestions and addressing them. The added lifetime warranty adds peace of mind and according to the FB owners page most people are happy. I think the brittle plastic may be over blown as I have only seen a couple people with issues, I'm sure there are more but I don't see it being a big issue.. if mine shits the bed then I will have a different opinion, lol.
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I got my RMA Friday and will be sending my rifle in on Monday or Tuesday to have all of the improvements done. I got my Silencerco muzzle brake and ASR mount the other day so when I get it back I will throw some lead down range hopefully. I think they are doing a good job at listening to peoples problems and suggestions and addressing them. The added lifetime warranty adds peace of mind and according to the FB owners page most people are happy. I think the brittle plastic may be over blown as I have only seen a couple people with issues, I'm sure there are more but I don't see it being a big issue.. if mine shits the bed then I will have a different opinion, lol. View Quote |
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From the pics above...it appears the new extractor is not MIM...I don't see casting marks...can someone confirm?
If so, wonder why Nick and the gang at DT abandoned their highly claimed MIM extractor... |
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New "military" cold weather testing video of MDR shows two out of the three contact points are actually heat-sinks. Appears to be civilian testing not military. Cold Weather Testing View Quote I, too, think the plastics issue was overblown*, but the few reports of cracks in the takedown pins is almost certainly the result of excessive recoil needed to make the gimpy guns run correctly (and I still don't see how a stronger extractor could possibly improve that) Hun, the reason they extractor is machined, if indeed it is, is probably because they don't want to blow another 25-30 grand on tooling until they know it's an actual fix. MIM --even Indo-MIM-- is a perfectly legitimate production technique these days. Allegedly, when it's done right, it's slightly stronger & more consistent than bar stock ('billet' in the gun community) because the powder production requires a higher quality feed stock with fewer inclusions/impurities, and they claim porosity levels on part with bar stock. Now, still not as good as forging (since forging closes up the few voids that are present and arranges the grain boundaries along advantageous paths) but I'm not sure how common that is with any new-production small parts these days. No need to complain about a perfectly acceptable modern production method; it's like bitching about how the SCAR is extruded & not machined from bar, and therefore will warp/etc when it gets hot. *The MDR seems no less 'flimsy' than any other polymer-heavy gun I've handled, including the Tavor, ARX, FS2000, and of course RDB. It's the nature of the beast, unless you really do want something so rigid it shatters in cold weather. Oddly enough, you never see people complain about how flimsy the Tavor/X95's furniture is, but rather the opposite (I swear the owners of those guns must live in an alternate reality or something, where it's as reliable as an AK, as nice as a B&T, and as adaptable as an AR) |
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Quoted: What's with the General Grievous mask? That's like page one of "How to Make Friends and Make People Not Take You Seriously" I, too, think the plastics issue was overblown*, but the few reports of cracks in the takedown pins is almost certainly the result of excessive recoil needed to make the gimpy guns run correctly (and I still don't see how a stronger extractor could possibly improve that) Hun, the reason they extractor is machined, if indeed it is, is probably because they don't want to blow another 25-30 grand on tooling until they know it's an actual fix. MIM --even Indo-MIM-- is a perfectly legitimate production technique these days. Allegedly, when it's done right, it's slightly stronger & more consistent than bar stock ('billet' in the gun community) because the powder production requires a higher quality feed stock with fewer inclusions/impurities, and they claim porosity levels on part with bar stock. Now, still not as good as forging (since forging closes up the few voids that are present and arranges the grain boundaries along advantageous paths) but I'm not sure how common that is with any new-production small parts these days. No need to complain about a perfectly acceptable modern production method; it's like bitching about how the SCAR is extruded & not machined from bar, and therefore will warp/etc when it gets hot. *The MDR seems no less 'flimsy' than any other polymer-heavy gun I've handled, including the Tavor, ARX, FS2000, and of course RDB. It's the nature of the beast, unless you really do want something so rigid it shatters in cold weather. Oddly enough, you never see people complain about how flimsy the Tavor/X95's furniture is, but rather the opposite (I swear the owners of those guns must live in an alternate reality or something, where it's as reliable as an AK, as nice as a B&T, and as adaptable as an AR) View Quote At the end of the day. In today's manufacturing capabilities...its all about the quality and the controls in place. |
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I agree, they have made several improvements which seem to have the rifles up and running. Yes, some still have issues but DT has been listening it seems and is doing a good job at trying to make the rifle right. It is apparent that there are some out there who truly do want them to fail and will scoff at attempts to make things right. I was one of the early adopters of the rifle and followed it from it's first announcement.. I have skin in the game and have been patient and am glad to see they are standing by their product. It might be time for a more flattering title change to this thread. View Quote Don't even try and say they did any testing of this rifle before release because there's no way in hell. |
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The problem is (and it's not only with this company) is that companies are in such a rush to push a product out that they're allowing the customer to be the guinea pigs for the T&E of their products. This rifle was released more than a year ago and it's still on the slow crawl to getting to where it should've been on release day. This practice by companies is unacceptable.... Don't even try and say they did any testing of this rifle before release because there's no way in hell. View Quote Misinterpreted it to the 10th degree...and we get what we get now with products across many industries...its all fine and dandy...as long as you have the support nailed down from the start...which DT, and others did not. Early on DT blamed us remember for every single issue...it wasn't until GT and InRange, with their audience base, publicly shamed DT essentially for releasing junk. If it wasn't for forum push back and YT...DT to this day would still probably blame the customer for rifle troubles...their service department seems to be good...which was/is their saving grace. I think finally we are saying functioning rifles...question is how long will they last... |
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From what I've read on here and elsewhere...is their service dept perfect...no...but overall I think they get a pass...the service dept. If you have different thoughts as to why not...share... View Quote |
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Quoted: I know the service department isn't where design issues get fixed, but it seems like most of the MDR's that are sent back get sent back multiple times, with various degrees of band-aids applied, or "we couldn't duplicate the issue" or "try different ammo". View Quote |
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Well...true...the 2019 gas plug is just over-gassing the gun more to aid in extractor...vs an actual fix...like extending the gas port and loosening the tolerances on the chamber... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: I know the service department isn't where design issues get fixed, but it seems like most of the MDR's that are sent back get sent back multiple times, with various degrees of band-aids applied, or "we couldn't duplicate the issue" or "try different ammo". |
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View Quote Increasing the clearance makes the nominal dimensions larger. Tolerance is how tightly you are controlling a dimension. Clearance is how that dimension interacts with the mating part, in this case, the brass and bullet. |
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Yeah just opening up tolerances is usually bad and can result in tolerance stack. One part at high end of tolerance another at the low and then bam they don’t work together. Or with the chamber as the gentleman above me is alluding to high end on a chamber and then it’s looser low end of expanded tolerance the Chamber would be tighter than ever.
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Lighten up, guys, it's a super-common mixup like loose/lose. I'm just being a D&T Nazi (annoying relative of the Grammar Nazi)
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Where the MDR is concerned, I'm not sure "lighten up" is possible. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Yeah, it is kinda heavy for what it is... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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I finally got around to sending my rifle back to DT this past Thursday for the upgrades. I actually never shot it but I am hoping to get a fully functioning and up to date rifle upon it's return. Time will tell.
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It is. With some of the durability issues already or would be hard to take more material out. Definitely not in the BCG or op rod. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Lighten up, guys, it's a super-common mixup like loose/lose. I'm just being a D&T Nazi (annoying relative of the Grammar Nazi) |
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Quoted: Plus even with the bulk it’s added since it was unveiled, every video I see looks like it has the recoil of a 12 gauge. I don’t think lightening it up would help. View Quote |
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Quoted: I still say the reciprocating mass is far too light, and the rifle is gassed to move way too damn fast to overcome issues with the ejection chute. They're all probably going to beat themselves to death right along with the shooters' shoulders. View Quote If you look at the BCG...they could have left 2-3oz of material on their no problem... |
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