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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 11/20/2012 7:54:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/20/2012 7:55:39 PM EST by Blister64]
First off, I'd like to say thanks to everyone. I've learned a lot the past couple months looking on here. Finally got around to reloading some rounds with W844 pulldown and pulled 55gr bullets for my 16in AR. Here's the scoop...

Was doing a work up load as I've seen many others do on here. Started my lowest at 24.2 and my highest at 26.3. Made 5 loads total with various weights in between those 2. I ended up getting the best group with my second lowest load at 24.7 gr. The other loads, especially the hotter ones, were flying high and all over the place. My softest load did something funny... When I would pull the trigger, it seemed like there was a slight delay in ignition. I'd hear a click like the firing pin was hit, then bang. Literally just a few milliseconds, and at first I thought I was imagining it, but almost all of them did it. The hotter loads didn't do this. I was using the wolf primers from widners, the SRM? I believe? Im on my phone and will have to look it up later. I was using ATI military brass. Used the hornady primer pocket cleaner to remove the primer crimps. The primers looked very slightly lower than factory loads, but they all went bang. Once fired, they looked like all other factory loads as far as depth.

Sorry fir the long description, but I figured the more info the better.!

On a side note, the 24.7 gr 10 shot group at 100 yards was 1.5 inches center to center! Nikon 3-9X BDC was the scope used.
Link Posted: 11/20/2012 8:17:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 1:25:13 AM EST
This has been beat to death over the years. W844 pull down powders, and Wolf/Tula primers do not get along together on some load combos. Try using different primer, and/or powder. You could also do a burn test on the pull down powder, and see how it burns.

GlockMonk
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 3:38:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 2:58:09 PM EST by 243winxb]
Spray lubed brass for sizing? Click bang = heavily coated powder, needing a magnum primer. Powder Added from link. The manufacture of smokeless ball powder requires a more specialized procedure (National Research Council 1998). Nitrocellulose, stabilizers, and solvents are blended into a dough, then extruded through a pelletizing plate and formed into spheres. The solvent is removed from the granules, and nitroglycerine is impregnated into the granules. The spheres are then coated with deterrents and flattened with rollers. Finally, an additional coating with graphite and flash suppressants is applied, and the batch is mixed to ensure homogeneity.

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:13:52 AM EST
Thanks for the comments guys. As far as media, there is no way any media was present. I didn't tumble after resizing, which my die has a deprimmer. That would clear the pocket. Plus I checked all 50 before loading since I wanted everything perfect for my work up. I've read about the W844 and wolf issues as well, but I thought the magnum primers, like what I have, weren't such an issue. I've seen many people also say no problems after thousands of rounds... The hotter loads had no ignition issues at all, just my lowest. The lube I used was empirical sizing wax very sparingly. Took apart the die, did a light coat on the neck sizer, and lightly coated the brass as I resized. At times it was actually too little wax as the brass would be harder to size sometimes. So I don't think the powder was coated. It could have just been the powder/primer combo as listed above. Hope it doesn't become a bigger issue... any more thoughts?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:22:06 AM EST
Could be a bad lot of primers. There were a few of those around in Wolf awhile back. All I have bought have been GTG though.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:45:40 AM EST
There have been a lot of people having the exact same issue as you with Wolf SRM primers and H335... IIRC H335 is nearly identical to WC844...

I think most would recommend a different powder/primer combination. It seems the problem comes with ball powders, maybe try a stick powder...

Recent discussion here on arfcom might help ––> LINK
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:58:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By zachsmith526:
There have been a lot of people having the exact same issue as you with Wolf SRM primers and H335... IIRC H335 is nearly identical to WC844...

I think most would recommend a different powder/primer combination. It seems the problem comes with ball powders, maybe try a stick powder...

Recent discussion here on arfcom might help ––> LINK


I have fired approximately 3000 (and have quite a few ammo cans loaded) with 55gr hornady/H335/KVM223 for range work. I have had 0 issues with this load.

I would suggest looking at the lot number of your primers and then googling. I remember several places like Wideners and PVI having to accept a lot of returns (maybe around 2010) during the tail end of the great post-election primer shortage due to hang-fires and FTF's.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:14:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 6:17:01 AM EST by gee223]
Originally Posted By Blister64:
Thanks for the comments guys. As far as media, there is no way any media was present. I didn't tumble after resizing, which my die has a deprimmer. That would clear the pocket. Plus I checked all 50 before loading since I wanted everything perfect for my work up. I've read about the W844 and wolf issues as well, but I thought the magnum primers, like what I have, weren't such an issue. I've seen many people also say no problems after thousands of rounds... The hotter loads had no ignition issues at all, just my lowest. The lube I used was empirical sizing wax very sparingly. Took apart the die, did a light coat on the neck sizer, and lightly coated the brass as I resized. At times it was actually too little wax as the brass would be harder to size sometimes. So I don't think the powder was coated. It could have just been the powder/primer combo as listed above. Hope it doesn't become a bigger issue... any more thoughts?


You really need to tumble after sizing, you can get a wax buildup in your chamber. Because of the lube the case can't grab the sides of the chamber so all of the rearward force is absorbed by the boltface. It's not good for the gun.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 9:07:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Blister64: I didn't tumble after resizing,
How do you get rid of the lube?

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 9:08:20 AM EST
I've had the same issue with low charge weight loads and Wolf std primers in .223 using WC844 and H335 as well as in .308 and 30-06 using Win 748. All three are ball powders. I tried magnum primers with them and the problem went away. I'm guessing that Wolf's std primers aren't as hot as the competition so they don't light low charge weight loads effectively. In addition, all three light loads gave terrible SDs and ES with the std primers but when I used Wolf magnum primers their SDs and ES tightened up considerably.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 10:37:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By COSteve:
I've had the same issue with low charge weight loads and Wolf std primers in .223 using WC844 and H335 as well as in .308 and 30-06 using Win 748. All three are ball powders. I tried magnum primers with them and the problem went away. I'm guessing that Wolf's std primers aren't as hot as the competition so they don't light low charge weight loads effectively. In addition, all three light loads gave terrible SDs and ES with the std primers but when I used Wolf magnum primers their SDs and ES tightened up considerably.


Me too.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 11:00:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 11:03:13 AM EST by zw123]
OK so use real powder and real primers......

I've had that happen with some cast loads with 30.06. Click.......boom It sucks
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 11:07:18 AM EST

I have fired approximately 3000 (and have quite a few ammo cans loaded) with 55gr hornady/H335/KVM223 for range work. I have had 0 issues with this load.


Zero issues here too, I've used all 3 of Wolfs small rifle primers with a couple hundred pounds smp844 so far
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 2:39:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 2:53:25 PM EST by 243winxb]
At times it was actually too little wax as the brass would be harder to size sometimes. So I don't think the powder was coated
Not talking about the lube. Read the above link. Some ball powders get a coating (Deterrents) to slow the burning rate. This coating makes powder hard to ignite. This is why a good magnum primer is needed. Another problem might be light bullet pull. Military rounds take 45 lbs to move the bullet. If to light, this would let the bullet move forward before enough pressure is made to start a good burn. The lighter powder charge taking up less space would build pressure slower than a near maximum loading.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:43:58 PM EST
thank again for all the comments. here is the link to the exact primers I got. I was under the impression that they were magnum primers for hotter loads... It's the middle product, the SRM

Widners Wolf Primers

As for cleaning off the lube, I used an old towel and rubbed them down for a bit. I'll go the with the tumbler next time to prevent any issues with lube/wax if that's the case. I loaded some more up with 3 loads ranging from 24.6-25.0. Like I said, didn't have any issues with the higher powder loads, only the 24.3 loads, so hopefully I won't have any issues with these. Thanks again for the comments, I really appreciate it! I don't think I'll have any more issues with the hotter loads with this combo, but I'll update as soon as I shoot these off.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:36:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 6:43:18 PM EST by CCW]
Originally Posted By Blister64:
First off, I'd like to say thanks to everyone. I've learned a lot the past couple months looking on here. Finally got around to reloading some rounds with W844 pulldown and pulled 55gr bullets for my 16in AR. Here's the scoop...

Was doing a work up load as I've seen many others do on here. Started my lowest at 24.2 and my highest at 26.3. Made 5 loads total with various weights in between those 2. I ended up getting the best group with my second lowest load at 24.7 gr. The other loads, especially the hotter ones, were flying high and all over the place. My softest load did something funny... When I would pull the trigger, it seemed like there was a slight delay in ignition. I'd hear a click like the firing pin was hit, then bang. Literally just a few milliseconds, and at first I thought I was imagining it, but almost all of them did it. The hotter loads didn't do this. I was using the wolf primers from widners, the SRM? I believe? Im on my phone and will have to look it up later. I was using ATI military brass. Used the hornady primer pocket cleaner to remove the primer crimps. The primers looked very slightly lower than factory loads, but they all went bang. Once fired, they looked like all other factory loads as far as depth. Sorry fir the long description, but I figured the more info the better.!

On a side note, the 24.7 gr 10 shot group at 100 yards was 1.5 inches center to center! Nikon 3-9X BDC was the scope used.


There are two prevalent methods of removing the military primer crimp. 1. swaging, 2. milling.

Most primer crimp ring removal tools have a tapered cutter preceded by a piloting shank that keeps the tool centered in the primer pocket and sets the depth of cut when the milling occurs.

The hornady primer pocket cleaner is essentially a flat blade screwdriver tip designed to chip away the crud left over from the previous primer in the bottom of the primer pocket of the case. You might want to check with Hornady and see if they intended for their primer pocket cleaner to be used to remove the crimp ring.

Primer cups are supposed to be .003 to .008 below the case head face according to SAAMI. Deep primer pockets in the case head or over-sized cases with resulting large case head space can cause light strikes which can cause delayed firing. Check your shoulder-to-case head distance on sized and as-fired cases to assure there is no over-sizing.

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:35:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By CCW:
Originally Posted By Blister64:
First off, I'd like to say thanks to everyone. I've learned a lot the past couple months looking on here. Finally got around to reloading some rounds with W844 pulldown and pulled 55gr bullets for my 16in AR. Here's the scoop...

Was doing a work up load as I've seen many others do on here. Started my lowest at 24.2 and my highest at 26.3. Made 5 loads total with various weights in between those 2. I ended up getting the best group with my second lowest load at 24.7 gr. The other loads, especially the hotter ones, were flying high and all over the place. My softest load did something funny... When I would pull the trigger, it seemed like there was a slight delay in ignition. I'd hear a click like the firing pin was hit, then bang. Literally just a few milliseconds, and at first I thought I was imagining it, but almost all of them did it. The hotter loads didn't do this. I was using the wolf primers from widners, the SRM? I believe? Im on my phone and will have to look it up later. I was using ATI military brass. Used the hornady primer pocket cleaner to remove the primer crimps. The primers looked very slightly lower than factory loads, but they all went bang. Once fired, they looked like all other factory loads as far as depth. Sorry fir the long description, but I figured the more info the better.!

On a side note, the 24.7 gr 10 shot group at 100 yards was 1.5 inches center to center! Nikon 3-9X BDC was the scope used.


There are two prevalent methods of removing the military primer crimp. 1. swaging, 2. milling.

Most primer crimp ring removal tools have a tapered cutter preceded by a piloting shank that keeps the tool centered in the primer pocket and sets the depth of cut when the milling occurs.

The hornady primer pocket cleaner is essentially a flat blade screwdriver tip designed to chip away the crud left over from the previous primer in the bottom of the primer pocket of the case. You might want to check with Hornady and see if they intended for their primer pocket cleaner to be used to remove the crimp ring.

Primer cups are supposed to be .003 to .008 below the case head face according to SAAMI. Deep primer pockets in the case head or oversized cases with large case head space can cause light strikes which can cause delayed firing. Check your shoulder to case head distance on sized and as-fired cases to assure there is no oversizing.



Thanks for the info! I'll do some more research on that... The ones I loaded earlier were actually more like factory loaded than my first as far as primer depth. I'll check the depths...
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 5:55:45 AM EST
From your link- "Wolf Small Rifle Magnum primers have the same power as regular Wolf Small Rifle primers, but the cup is a little thicker and less sensitive." primers

Link Posted: 11/22/2012 6:17:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By 243winxb:
From your link- "Wolf Small Rifle Magnum primers have the same power as regular Wolf Small Rifle primers, but the cup is a little thicker and less sensitive." primers



Correct. It also said for 556 or hot 223 loads, and others said they were the primers to get, so thought they were gtg haven't had anymore troubles yet...
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 8:44:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By Blister64:
Originally Posted By 243winxb:
From your link- "Wolf Small Rifle Magnum primers have the same power as regular Wolf Small Rifle primers, but the cup is a little thicker and less sensitive." primers



Correct. It also said for 556 or hot 223 loads, and others said they were the primers to get, so thought they were gtg haven't had anymore troubles yet...


I have also heard that the Wolf "magnum" primer (unlike a CCI 450) was "the same power as regular Wolf Small Rifle primers, but the cup is a little thicker and less sensitive" but really never got a clear answer. If it is, then why do they sell the "nato spec" primer. Or is it also hotter?

As far as your hang fire goes, it is not really that uncommon with lighter charges of ball powder. Some ball powder can hang then detonate. This is why you will see warnings NOT to go UNDER the start load with them.

This can be somewhat of a anomaly at times. I had a H-414 load hang fire in a Ruger M77 .280 Rem. The rifle had a high performance firing pin spring too and worked well with other loads. This same H-414 load did not hang fire in my Rem. Model 700 and is still in use. If I changed primers to a CCI 250 (magnum primer) the load worked fine in the Ruger.

If your most accurate load shot without any problems I would not worry about it.

I would bet though that with CCI 450's the load that did hang fire would not.

BTW: The Speer manual has always recommended magnum primers with ball powder. Do I always use them? No.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 9:11:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By Blister64: I didn't tumble after resizing,
How do you get rid of the lube?[/quote]

You can tumble the cases but the lube will contaminate the media quicker than tumbling "dry" cases.

You can wipe the cases clean... a real PITA and not practical for large numbers of cases.

Or, you can do as I do in 100 case lots. I put the sized and lubed cases in a plastic tub, add hot water and dish washing liquid. I stir them by hand awhile and then rinse in cold water. I stand them up in a tin baking pan and put them on a stove burner at medium heat for 5 or 6 minutes to evaporate the water. They can then be primed and loaded as usual or tumbled before priming and loading. RCBS, Lyman and other lubes are water soluble and it doesn't take a lot of water with dish washing liquid to clean them.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 10:18:01 PM EST
Thanks for the advice Motor1 and doubs43!

I'll definitely run them through the tumbler next batch. I only did about 50 my first 2 tries so figured wiping with a towel would be ok.
Link Posted: 11/23/2012 6:23:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By GlockMonk:
This has been beat to death over the years. W844 pull down powders, and Wolf/Tula primers do not get along together on some load combos. Try using different primer, and/or powder. You could also do a burn test on the pull down powder, and see how it burns.

GlockMonk


+2

This same subject crops up from time to time.
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