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Posted: 12/26/2002 6:33:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/26/2002 6:33:48 AM EST by SHIVAN]
I understand the Beretta M9 9mm is the standard issue sidearm for the Army.

What does the Navy, AF, CG, etc use?

Also, do the SF boys choose their own stuff? If so, what is the prevailant sidearm they choose while in harm's way?

I know for certain missions they have been known to use S&W 686 revolvers, H&K 45's, M9's, and a couple others I forget.

The search engine is not very friendly to these searches.

Please help.

Ed
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 6:57:52 AM EST
Most of the "conventional" military uses the Beretta M9. The Army CID uses the M11, Sig Sauer P228 available in two models - one which has the tritium night sights. I understand the Coast Guard uses the M9. Navy, Marines, and Air Force primarily use the M-9. SF guys carry pretty much what they want it seems - but actually "issue weapons" include the Sig Sauer P-226 (SEALs), HK MK23 .45 (SOCOM in general), also heard the SEALs still use the S&W 686 for water ops some do to its corrosion resistance and reliability in their work area. A lot of use by 1911 style .45's by those allowed to carry them - a lot of the Special Operations units seem to use these custom .45's now. Especially, the Marine Corp.
I'm not a "subject matter expert" per say - just what I've heard from others, read, or observed.

Link Posted: 12/26/2002 1:53:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/26/2002 2:01:18 PM EST by Ross]
The millitary adopts pistols in a joint-service fashion. So all the services technically have the same standard pistol. The two standrad pistols are the M9 (Beretta 92) and the M11 (Sig P228). Which one you get depends on what your unit's mission is and what you're authorized. Despite what Hollywood stories make it out to be, you get what you're issued and there's not alot of choice. I've seen CID, NIS, and some other folks with the M11. Most of the other folks that are regular issue get the M9.

Some units are allowed other choices based on their needs. These may not be standard issue items (like the 686, HKP9S, P226(Mk 22), MEUSOC 1911, etc) that are purchased by the govt, or the units themselves with specific funds for this type. Some of them (like the MEUSOC .45) are merely adaptations of existing service pistols that cost very little to modify compared to purchasing a new handgun of the same capability.

The MK23 HK was designed for a specific requirement by SOCOM, and funded through that command, so you aren't going to see Mk23's in the hands of regular GI Joe. Only a unit that needs that capability will have one. They are huge by the way, and not the perfect back-up to a long gun.

Obviously, special units get to pick from a variety of wepons that are on-hand. That could be anything captured or tested in the past, which is a pretty long list.

Some units are authorized to allow personal weapons, but these are rare and far fewer than most people would believe. Your regular GI gets issued a pistol from the arms room, and that's that. The two standard pistols are the M9 for general service and the M11 for units that need soemthing smaller for some reason.

As to what gets picked, it will all depend. Pistols are not all that important in the bigger scheme of things, and many SF units won't even carry them on some missions. It's just dead weight. ON some missions, they may be the difference between success and failure.
When and what gets used is based on the mission requirements, and that's why they are trained to know when and what to use. There was a problem with the SEALS shooting SMG ammo out of the M9 and breaking slides, so they went to the MK22 (P226). There was an old joke that the Marine Corps came up with a better idea and issued .45's so they couldn't shoot SMG ammo (9mm) out of it in the first place. You'll note that the Marine Corps factfile states the MEUSOC .45 is issued to Marines equipped with the MP-5 9mm. You'd have to admit it sure would eliminate the problem of shooting 9mm SMG ammo out of a pistol, if you made the pistol a .45.

Ross
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 10:21:15 AM EST
Any more input to this thread? Thanks.

Ed
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 4:23:41 PM EST
Oh come on Ross, the guy at the gun shop who was an elite spcial forces, ranger, seal team 6 medic, cook, green beret (although he was so tough they didn't make him go to all of that training because he knew all that cool stuff already), told me that he could use anything he wanted, and that nobody carried issue weapons because they were so inferior. He wouldn't lie now would he?

Sorry about the sarcasm, but I hear so much about this pistol, and that rifle that the SF guys use, when the truth is they use whatever comes out of the arms room window, and they really don't care much what it is as long as it suits there purposes. I guess that it is just more fun to imagine our guys using al of the gee whiz gadgets they bought at the last gunshow, (the dealer said he normally sells out to the special forces when he gets them but he will let you have it today only for $399.99), and he wouldn't ever lie either.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:05:33 AM EST
About custom .45s, about the only ones using them are Force Recon with their MEU SOCs and SFOD-D with their custom pistols. Normal SF ODAs do not use custom .45 pistols.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:28:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 6:29:47 AM EST by skullworks]

Originally Posted By Ross:
There was a problem with the SEALS shooting SMG ammo out of the M9 and breaking slides, so they went to the MK22 (P226). There was an old joke that the Marine Corps came up with a better idea and issued .45's so they couldn't shoot SMG ammo (9mm) out of it in the first place. You'll note that the Marine Corps factfile states the MEUSOC .45 is issued to Marines equipped with the MP-5 9mm. You'd have to admit it sure would eliminate the problem of shooting 9mm SMG ammo out of a pistol, if you made the pistol a .45.

As a side note: When the Swedish military started field trials for a new sidearm the only ammo used was the m/39B, which is considered to be armorpiercing SMG ammo (preferably used in the K-pist m/45B, otherwise known as the Swedish K (see pic below)). The three handguns that were under consideration were the Beretta 92, the Glock 17, and the SIG/Sauer 226.

The Beretta would not stand up to the SMG rounds and the slides would separate from the frame. The Sig would not hold up to the arctic climate, so in the end the only contestant that was left was the Glock 17. The G17 was adopted as Pistol m/88 and the Swedish Airforce adopted the G19 as Pistol m/88B to be issued as a sidearm for pilots.

The Swedish national police used to carry Sigs but have now switched to Glocks because of reliability issues (I don't know what these issues might have been.)

Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:59:23 AM EST
I dont know how current this site is, but it's fun to look. 192.156.19.108/enduringfreedom/meus_equipment.htm
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 7:06:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Oh come on Ross, the guy at the gun shop who was an elite spcial forces, ranger, seal team 6 medic, cook, green beret (although he was so tough they didn't make him go to all of that training because he knew all that cool stuff already), told me that he could use anything he wanted, and that nobody carried issue weapons because they were so inferior. He wouldn't lie now would he?

Sorry about the sarcasm, but I hear so much about this pistol, and that rifle that the SF guys use, when the truth is they use whatever comes out of the arms room window, and they really don't care much what it is as long as it suits there purposes. I guess that it is just more fun to imagine our guys using al of the gee whiz gadgets they bought at the last gunshow, (the dealer said he normally sells out to the special forces when he gets them but he will let you have it today only for $399.99), and he wouldn't ever lie either.



Yeah, everyone around here has "this buddy" on the teams, or was "something or other". UGH! it's endless! The good thing is that you can spot a fake right off the bat if you have even half a clue as to what a real SEAL or SF type is REALLY like.

I actually had a choice most of my career in the Army Aviation. I could choose between a Ruger or a Smith and Wesson. Yup, a 6 shot .38 special revolver. Back before the M9, there weren't enough .45's to go around so the ground combat guys got them first, and on down the food chain. Made sense to me, so it was no biggie. I was pretty well screwed if I had to use those FMJ .38 specs that had the recoil of wadcutters though. Finally when I was in the 101st, they collected up the .38s and issued out all NIB M9s. It was the ONLY new gun I was issued in the Army and it worked fine.

For 99% of the Army, a weapon is just another piece of equipment. It's something you use to do your job, not some magical sword that has some special link to your soul. We as gun owners tend to personalize anything with guns, but in reality of military combat, you just grab a gun and make it work.

Ross
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 7:21:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 7:22:54 AM EST by Backstop]
The sidearm info starts about 1/3 the way down the page.
www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm

Took me three times, but I finally got the link right. Sheesh!
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 8:50:02 AM EST
Backstop,

Excellent link. Very informative.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 9:08:22 AM EST

The entire pistol is de-horned and Pachmayer stocks fitted. There is none of the checkering (so favored by artistes) on this pistol.


So, what do the Marines have against checkered front straps and mainspring housings?
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 10:02:13 AM EST
WHO in the military is issued a pistol ?

I thought it was officers and pilots, tankers and others who wouldn't have the space for a rifle.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 10:32:10 AM EST
J_Smith- no prob!


Originally Posted By marvl:

The entire pistol is de-horned and Pachmayer stocks fitted. There is none of the checkering (so favored by artistes) on this pistol.


So, what do the Marines have against checkered front straps and mainspring housings?



marvl- I wondered the same thing.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 3:53:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 4:41:05 PM EST
I agree with what Troy said. Checkering would make the job of people like me more FUN - in a sick sort of way. I managed to be an armorer for over three years and left as the worlds biggest asshole. But Division was happy. Seriously - I had people threaten me, cry,.... everything for making them clean weapons late on a Friday or Saturday night.
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