Just ran into a problem when resizing some .223 brass...

I'm using the Lyman case trimmer kit that has a few pilots that establish the trimmed length , that lock into a small cutter head with a set screw. This assembly goes into a hand drill to trim the cases. This time the pilot will NOT fit into the case mouth. Reading I'm getting on the dial caliper is .219 in. at the case mouth and the pilot measures .220.

Noticed some brass had transferred to the pilot so I took some 600 grit sandpaper and polished the brass from the pilot thinking that might have been the issue. Still no luck, the pilot still won't fit into the case mouth. Any idea what's going on here ??

Checking against FIRED cases, the case mouth comes in at .225 in. dia. and the pilot easily fits with no issues. I bought the Lee case trimmer kit and RCBS AR style S/B die set at the same time and haven't had any problems until now.

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Agree, this isn’t clear when getting started,,,

Each case trimmer has their own quirks. However, most are designed for a sized case. When trying to establish a sized neck for a 0.224 bullet, the typical range for the processed neck should be about 0.222 to 0.221, plus or minus to taste.

What you will need to determine is why you ended up below 0.220. It could be that the jaws on most calipers introduce an error when trying to grab an ID measurement in this size range that is significant. However, you are still seeing enough of a small neck ID that I have to ask what you used to size it?
Later on, you will probably add expander mandrels to your repertoire. These are handy for con trolling neck diameters.

So, did you use a conventional die with an expander ball? What diameter is that ball?

Which trimmer is this?

I'm only familiar with this one: https://leeprecision.com/gage-holder-223-rem.html

I don't know the pilot diameter, but it's real snug on my 0.218" ID necks. I push in while the case spins.

You need a Sinclair  mandrel die and insert for necking the case back up to trim,  then reneck down to finish size afterwards...

2nd die from the left, inserts below it...
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I used the knife edge of the calipers to measure the case mouth dia. As for sizing the the case I'm using RCBS .223 Rem/5.56x45 SB T/C die set (part#11107) Group:AR. I have no idea the size of the expander on the die I just set it up per instructions and it has worked fine in conjunction with the Lyman case trimming tool https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/124271/lyman-e-zee-trim-hand-case-trimmer-universal-set?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Reloading+-+Metallic+Reloading+Equipment+

until now.

Sorry, I should clarify I'm using the Lyman EZ case trimming set. Not sure why I had Lee on the brain... That's what I started to do but it was trying to spin the case in the shell holder while trying to insert it so I thought I had better back off a bit and see what the problem is. The pilot measures .220 at the part that's inserted into the case mouth.

The pilot had some friction transfer of brass that I polished off of it before trying again but that didn't fix the problem.

Yes, using mixed headstamp cases. I'm having the same problem with all of them.

From the limited measurement I'm getting from the calipers the case mouths are all uniformly sizing to .218-.219 in. across all headstamps. Usually with a .0005 within that .001 range.

What's really tripping me up is that when new everything worked together fine, and now the pilot is crazy hard to get into the case mouth...

Agree that it should still be working.

We are missing something here, but we will find it.

The expander ball is still in the die, correct?

When you get a chance, measure the OD of that expander so you know what you have for reference.

Can you describe what lube and details of your sizing process?

Also, how many firing cycles on this brass?

I'm using the RCBS case lube 2. I media tumble the fired cases and remove and inspect while wiping the case with a rag to remove any media dust present. Then onto the lube pad rolling cases back & forth to get complete coverage of lube. Then into the decapping & sizing die, in RCBS Rockchucker IV. Pull the handle thru complete cycle and remove case, inspect for cracks at case mouth, into the plastic storage container to await hand priming, powder and bullet.

About 3-4 firing cycles on the brass, mixed headstamps. I'll try to measure the expander tomorrow.

So these have been reloaded multiple times....have they been annealed at all in that same period?  As the brass work hardens it wants to spring back to the size  it was more and more...Might be worth annealing and see if things go back to normal...

The quick and dirty solution is to trim cases before sizing!  You will have to trim a bit shorter than your desired final trim length because cases get longer when you size them.  You will have to experiment with your cases to see how much they grow.  My (308) cases grow about 0.005" with sizing.  So if I wanted a final sized length of 2.005", I could trim unsized cases to 2.000" and then size to get back the ~0.005" to produce the desired final length.  This in not the most precise method but the SAAMI brass length "window" for 223 is 0.030" wide so if you pick an unsized trim length about 0.010" above minimum (aka 0.020 below maximum), your length after sizing should be pretty close to right in the middle of the window...

Might be what's happening, since I don't have any annealing equipment.

I measured the expander at .2205 and since I had the die apart I went thru the set up instructions again to reset the die. Sized & deprimed a case and it still comes in at .219 in. at the case mouth. Though checking the case before resizing the Lyman pilot fit the case mouth easily...

The trimmer system I'm using isn't adjustable. It uses pilots that are cut to the spec. for a particular case, the pilots are inserted into the cutter until it bottoms out and is tightened with a set screw. Shell holder is used to hold the case while a threaded handle is screwed up against the base of the case to lock it into the shell holder. Once everything is together the pilot tip bottoms out on the threaded handle portion after it slips thru the primer flash hole in the case.

Since the pilot length is preset it can't be adjusted.

I would anneal your cases, especially if you are looking for accuracy,  but with that said you have several choices, 1) anneal, 2) spin up the pilot for your trimmer in a drill and sand down the pilot to fit a sized case 3)trim before resizing and live with the length...The problem with 2 and 3 is you are most likely going to be splitting necks soon if you don't anneal...not to mention the accuracy issues...

Trim an unsized case then size it...  then measure it...  If the brass length of the sized case is something you can live with, you're GTG...  

Assuming your measurements are correct, something is going wrong here.

Are you sure the expander ball is actually entering the case?  It sounds almost like it is way too high, and thus you are getting no expansion.

I just reset the die with the decapping pin set to .300 in., which should have lowered the expander. Previously the expander/decapping assembly was set with .1875 in. protrusion of the decapping pin, which was reliably depriming all cases. I resized a case and got the same results as when the decapping /expander assembly was set at .1875 in.

Guess i should look into getting annealing equipment. I'll check out what I need to do as far as procedure with some youtube searches.

Your expander ball is too small.  Get a new one, they're cheap.

I'd say don't burden yourself with the cost and time to buy and use annealing gear.  It doesn't make a significant difference, is expensive and slows you down.

Just get a new expander ball.

As an aside, I'd like to know the OD or ID of your sized cases without the use of the expander ball.  I bet the die is squeezing the cases down really small (over-working the cases).

Annealing makes no significant difference, and cost a pile...huh,  not what I have experienced...I  have seen  double the case life due to split necks,  way more consistent neck tension, and better SD and extreme spread.. As far as cost wise, I doubt I have 80 bucks in everything I use to anneal..Time wise, yep it adds about 1/2 hour for 50 cases per annealing, small price to pay for the benefits...At least in my opinion...

OP your expander is the right size as well,  or at least matches up to within a .0005" of both mine and my sons..

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You may have misread his post.  His expander measured 0.2205", yours is 0.222".  Your expander is 0.0015" bigger than the OP's.

Once the a pin and hole get into an interference fit (hole smaller than pin), having a hole this is 0.0015" undersized is a LOT.  It explains why he cannot get the case onto the trimming mandrel.

OP, your expander ball is too small.  It's a $1 item and may even be sent for free.

As an aside, I'd still like to know the ID (or OD) of a case neck sized without the expander ball.

This statement could not be further from the truth in my opinion.

The more you work harden your brass, the more inconsistent your neck tension Will be. Which will affect accuracy/ case life/ consistent press pressure.
If you're only using cheap 223/5.56 brass and only doing mag dumps or shooting a hundred yards... then maybe it won't matter all that much.
But if you're wanting to get as much life out of your casing and want to chase accuracy, plus have consistent resizing.. anneal on

We can address annealing in a different thread.  I have never found a need for annealing nor a benefit therefrom.

Annealing was brought up in this thread because it might help OP deal with his problem.
If you don't understand the purpose of  annealing, then you need to understand why metal becomes hardened when it is bent back and forth and how that might affect the casings.
Every time you resize and fire your casing you basically bending it back and forth.
As far as you asking for us showing you how it makes Financial sense , I'm not sure I do it for those reasons although I believe it extends case life.

Odd that every quality case maker anneals their cases during manufacture,  then once the cases are ready to sell,  they anneal them again..heck of a lot of time, effort and cost that they don't need to spend but yet they all do..odd they don't want to make more profit and instead waste it on annealing for no reason...

If the expander diameter is really only 0.2205, then I must wonder how the process ever worked. It seems your expander is about 2 mils too small.

For a decent neck tension, your processed neck ID should end up about 0.222 and that ain’t going to happen when the ball is 2 miles smaller than that. I hear what you are saying about how everything seemed to work on the first cycle, but I’m not sure how it could have.

We need to try to find you an expander that is more along the lines of 0.222 and try again.

A typical Full Length Sizer will neck down the case and then the expander ball brings it back up.

I would add an opinion to try and measure a case from your sizer die using no expander ball and see how it compares?
Are you feeling that case neck hit the expander ball as you retract from the die? It should be a noticeable drag that happens after you feel the neck and body pull out of the die and then show a perceptible gap just before you feel the pull of the expander ball opening up the neck.

Some interesting conversation here about work hardening and overworking brass...  expander ball diameters, etc.  My 2 cents worth is that:

1) "Work hardening" isn't necessarily as bad as you might think.  I have never annealed a case and I get good consistency in my reloads with respectable case life - easily 10 or more reloading cycles per case.  In addition, I have never lost a case to neck (or any other) cracking...  I recently changed my routine and am waiting to see how many reloading cycles I can get out of a case...

2) If you really want to control your neck tension precisely and not overwork your brass, change to a "match grade" sizing die that uses a neck bushing to give you the desired neck diameter and remove the expander from the die.  I don't use an expander and get good results.

3) If after getting neck bushing dies, you want more consistent neck tension, consider turning your necks.  While you could argue that this is getting into diminishing returns, it is a one time operation for the life of the brass...  I probably wouldn't recommend this for AR type platform ammunition but if you ever decide to reload 223/5.56 for a precision bolt platform, this might be a consideration.

In my opinion, "overworking" your necks is only a problem if you are losing cases to neck failures.  I haven't heard you describing this so I don't know that you should spend the cash to get a new sizing die...  In addition, if you're thinking of going with a neck bushing type die for sizing, you will have to sort your brass by headstamp and use the appropriate bushing for the headstamp in question because neck wall thickness can vary from one manufacturer to the next.  The nice feature of an expander is that it gives uniform neck IDs with mixed range brass and, as a result, produces decently consistent "plinking" ammunition from dissimilarly manufactured brass.

Lastly, if you are able to seat bullets in the necks that you are currently turning out (without any problems) and are not expecting great precision (or case life) from the ammunition, I don't see a need to fiddle with your expander...  1.5 mils (thousandths) more neck tension isn't a big deal in blasting ammunition in 223/5.56.

P.S.:  Did you try trimming an unsized case, then sizing it, and finally measuring it to see if that sequence will work for you?  If you did, take a case so prepared and seat a bullet in it (no powder or primer) to see if it seats without issues...  

Measured my stuff last night.

My Forster expander ball is .223 external.  Just as specified in the Foster literature/packaging.  With .001 spring back/contraction, that leaves the sized case .002 smaller than the bullet diameter (neck tension).

If this guy is at .219 or .218, I suspect one of two things: the ball is not engaging the neck or the ball is small.

I'm not sure one could even seat a .224 flat based bullet in a case with an internal diameter of only .218.  Maybe you can, I don't know.

If the dies have successfully been used to reload .223/5.56 in the past, I would bet the die is not set up correctly and the ball is not expanding the neck.  If this is the first rodeo with this die set, I would bet the ball is too small.

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I absolutely enjoy the discussion TS, it is how we all learn, and anyone who has done any serious amount of reloading knows that there are many ways to skin the cat... As far as annealing goes, I do feel it has improved my ammo, but my methods are much different then most everybody else...Can I prove to you that it helps,  most likely not, but annealing has most certainly gained me much improved and consistent neck tension, easily felt when seating bullets, it has also tightened my SD and spread, bringing it down from double digits into single digits..Case life has also more then doubled  since  as well,  going from 4-6 loadings to  12 loadings now and still counting...Now could it be annealing shows more promise when used on very hot magnum cases versus a more normal service type case,  I do not have the answer for that,  but it would make sense that it could... Regardless, every reloader has to decide for themselves what equipment, process, and methods they will employ to produce ammo that meets their desired needs..  One thing I forgot to comment on, when it comes to manufacturers and their process, I know they have to anneal during their process in order to produce the case...thats not what I am talking about, every manufacturer of top quality brass anneals again after all processes are done...this isn't part of the process, this is done to provide a better finished process..

Some good reading if you haven't read it..
part 1...
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/

part 2...
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/42/annealing-under-the-microscope/

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TS,  you do understand there are 3 stages to annealing  brass right?  there is the recovery stage, the recrystallization stage, and the growth stage.. When preparing brass for forming into cartridge brass it is annealed to a much higher temp then when annealing formed brass for reloading...My understanding is for reloading purposes we are aiming for 300C to a max of 425 C (600-800F)  as found in the recovery stage of annealing... Going over that  temp softens the brass beyond what we need for brass to perform...There are a myriad of information from good sources on the internet that confirms properly annealed brass does offer longer life, more consistent neck tension  and can improve both accuracy, SD and spread...

I've never seen any such data.  People always say this but never provide any data.  It is a myth.

The one quantitative, statistically significant data source I've seen showed no significant increase in case life (~10%).  I get excellent case life by using bushing dies and careful, measured reloading practices.

I've also never seen any accuracy data.

In my own shooting without annealing, I see no accuracy loss over time (changes with increasing number of reloads).  The rifle and shooter get 1/2 MOA on first firing and with as many as ten reloads later, I'm still seeing 1/2 MOA.

Given that I'm not seeing accuracy degradation over time, there'd be no benefit for me.

I guess I am an iconoclast and a curmudgeon.  

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Their information is based on a full anneal in preparation to forming cases..as I explained earlier there are 3 stages to annealing brass...Taking the case temp over 800F is a sure way to ruin the case for reloading...What reloaders work in is a very small window that is between 600-800 F...As for your previous results, sounds like the process wasn't sound...but your current process works great for you, so annealing may not be something you care about anyway...

I am going to delete my annealing-related posts from this thread and start a separate thread.

I went and measured my Redding carbide expander ball.  It measured 0.2219" outer diameter.  So, yes, your expander is too small.

As an afterthought, I also took a look at the TiN-coated bushing I use to size the case neck outer diameter.  It is 0.244" diameter.