Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 7/13/2002 3:45:25 AM EDT
MYTH #1 The M-16 is not accurate.
Anyone who posts on this board can disprove this myth. Nuff said.

MYTH #2 The M-16 was made by Mattel Toy Corp.
This is total B.S. The M-16 was NEVER made for the military by anyone but COLT,FN,H&R,General Motors Hydramatic Div. and Bushmaster.

MYTH #3
The M-16 is not reliable.
The M-16 got It's reputation for unreliability during Viet-Nam when the wrong powder was used in the ammo. This problem has long been resolved, along with chrome plating in the barrel and chamber. This along with other upgrades that have been done to this weapon system have made the M-16 one of the most reliable weapon systems in use today. That is why the only militaries who use any thing else (with exception of the Steyr AUG, Sig 550,HK G-36) are ones who can't afford the M-16.

MYTH #4 The M-16 is fragile.
Although not as robust as a M-14 or M-1, the M-16 has to not be as fragile as some believe or you would not see as many Viet-Nam era M-16s on CNN in use in all parts of the world.

I have only been posting here for a short time, so I would appreciate any thoughts I could get on this matter. These are just my thoughts from my experiences from this weapon.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 3:52:03 AM EDT
youre preaching to the choir lil buddy.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 5:01:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2002 5:10:55 AM EDT by ED_P]
Myth #3 is always debated here.

A clean new AR with new USGI mags might function perfectly, but I look at guns reliability as sort of a boiling point where things bubble over, but each gun starts at room temp. Some have a low boiling point, some have a higher one, where it takes more bad things piling up before a malfunction.

My AK, M1A, and even Mini-14, have a high boiling point.

AR-15's however, are much pickier about ammo, and I've had failures with PMC ammo (and posted here and had others tell me they had the same problem, so it wasn't just my gun). My Mini-14 eats PMC all day.

I blame the M-16's low boiling point with ammo on the long travel distance each round has to travel to get chambered. My M1-A, AK and Mini-14, all pretty much have the next round to be chambered as close to the chamber mouth as it can physically be, by good design. This super short travel distance helps make a higher boiling point when it comes to underpowered or uneven burning ammo, as there's no perilously long distance for rounds to travel, or locking lugs that get in the way of a round starting to wander due to a slow bolt or shorter stroke.

The concensus on the PMC ammo problem was softer brass building up on the feed ramps of the AR, causing subsequent rounds to stick. And I found after every few rounds if I cleaned my feed ramps, the PMC would feed. Had the AR chosen a short travel distance design, the rounds wouldn't have been smudging on any feed ramps and no problem would've arisen. It never did with my Mini-14.

In addition, the mags are not the best design, though partially fixed by green followers after 20+ years of black ones.

I think 5.56 as a whole is tougher to feed, due to the smaller rim size, whereas 7.62 and even the Russian 5.45 has a larger rim, allowing more slop in a magazines spec before problems arise.

I like my Bushmaster, it's a fun and historical gun, but I haven't seen any other country adopt the M-16's gas tube design, though plenty of guns like the Valmet, Galil, FNC, and latest SIG rifles, have adopted the AK action.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 5:04:58 AM EDT


MYTH #2 The M-16 was made by Mattel Toy Corp.
This is total B.S. The M-16 was NEVER made for the military by anyone but COLT,FN,H&R,General Motors Hydramatic Div. and Bushmaster.




if i got my recolection correct, mattel makes the plastic AR stocks (one of the contract companies?), dunno if its right or wrong. Can anyone verify this?
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 5:13:31 AM EDT
ED_P
I do agree that the M-16 is more picky when it comes to ammo, as I have also had bad experiences with PMC ammo. It used to be very high quality, years ago. It's went to $hit now.

abri

I do not know if Mattel makes stocks or not, however I was refering to people telling me that Mattell complete rifles, that had Mattel Toy Corp. roll marked right on the side of the recvr.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 5:15:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By abri:


MYTH #2 The M-16 was made by Mattel Toy Corp.
This is total B.S. The M-16 was NEVER made for the military by anyone but COLT,FN,H&R,General Motors Hydramatic Div. and Bushmaster.




if i got my recolection correct, mattel makes the plastic AR stocks (one of the contract companies?), dunno if its right or wrong. Can anyone verify this?



No, Mattel was never a contractor.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 5:19:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ED_P:
Myth #3 is always debated here.

AR-15's however, are much pickier about ammo, and I've had failures with PMC ammo (and posted here and had others tell me they had the same problem, so it wasn't just my gun).



I have never had that problem. I think it is your rifle, (a sample size of one).
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 5:44:19 AM EDT
QCMGR
I have had problems with PMC .223 ammo. I have 3 AR's, it gave the same promlems in all 3 (seemed to be under powered) and in 4 rifles that various friends have. However I think it was a bad lot. But this ammo is still not as high quality as the PMC that used to come it the tan or cammo boxes.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 6:52:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottfn308:
QCMGR
I have had problems with PMC .223 ammo. I have 3 AR's, it gave the same promlems in all 3 (seemed to be under powered) and in 4 rifles that various friends have. However I think it was a bad lot. But this ammo is still not as high quality as the PMC that used to come it the tan or cammo boxes.



To verify ED_P theory you would need to test the ammo in a variety of weapons. If the PMC ammo is not to specification, then it is an ammo issue and not a rifle issue. I have not had an issue with any ammo in any AR-15 type rifles I have owned or were issued in the Army. FTF due to magazines, yes.


Link Posted: 7/13/2002 6:56:29 AM EDT
The AR/M16 family of rifles are nothing but junk, I don't know what kind of moron would own one..........oh, uh never mind.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 7:05:58 AM EDT
It's your rifles. The AR should run all day long with any ammo - even PMC - that meets normal specs. I would rather see you running mil-surplus rather than the crappiest stuff you can find but still, the rifle ought to run all day long with it.

Being a gas rifle is the problem as the mechanics of the system are designed around a range of proper spec'ed ammo. I would dare say that even your PMC is within spec's and that your rifle(s) aren't. Poor sized gas port, miss aligned gas tube, and the wrong sized chamber are my best guesses.

I have half a dozen AR's that I can't get to malfunction with a functional magazine.

If Mini-14's, AK's and the M1A were made by some of the clowns making (and selling) AR's they'd have bad reputations too.

Look at what Olympic Arms did do the FAL.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 7:07:54 AM EDT
QCMGR
Correct, that is the point I was trying to make ( that the M-16 is reliable), if the ammo is out of spec, It's not the gun's fault. I have used other ammo in the same AR'S and had no trouble of any kind. I also have had malfunctions that I have traced to faulty mags. (they aren't the best in the world )
Also I have noticed that the newer PMC has a different headstamp, and dosen't seem to be as accurate as what I have shot in the past.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 7:19:36 AM EDT
8 years of military service and 10 years as an AR-15 owner after that. I have 18+ years of experience in handling and fireing the AR-15/M-16 system. I've never experienced what I would consider reliability problems. I've owned PWA's, Colt's, Bushmaster's and an RRA. It's a good system.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 7:22:56 AM EDT
Some brands of ammo have higher failure rates than others but every brand has failed/jammed in every type of firearm at one time or another, even in new 16's issued to servicemen. There's always going to be a bad lot out there or a lemon in the bunch. These materials are produced my humans and humans are falable, it's just something we all have to live with. Firearms are like any other machine with moving parts, they sieze/break. All we can do is keep them in proper working order as best we can and hope that if we do have a failure during an incident some skell doesn't get the drop on us before we correct the problem.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 7:38:40 AM EDT
I too have had problems with PMC in multiple AR's. The boiling point analogy is a good one. With proper maintainence, the AR is an outstanding weapons platform. I take care of my AR's and they are almost as reliable as my AK's (which have never ever had a stoppage). If you start trying to use old beat up mags or run it dry and dirty, the AR will choke.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 8:50:32 AM EDT
Since, its hard and rare to find a new M16. You don't have to break in the weapon. When I got my first AR15 some times of ammo didn't work. It would fire, but not cycle the next round. I used PMC 55g, PMP 55g, Winchester, and Federal 55g. The Federal ran without problems so I broke in the gun with about 300rds. Postban Bushmaster 20"(new) is the gun I bought. Myth 3 was true! Its talked about in history books, books, history shows, movies, etc...
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 9:52:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By UrbanMarine:
Since, its hard and rare to find a new M16. You don't have to break in the weapon. When I got my first AR15 some times of ammo didn't work. It would fire, but not cycle the next round. I used PMC 55g, PMP 55g, Winchester, and Federal 55g. The Federal ran without problems so I broke in the gun with about 300rds. Postban Bushmaster 20"(new) is the gun I bought. Myth 3 was true! Its talked about in history books, books, history shows, movies, etc...



Your claim is rifle specific, not system based. Some rifles will fail at either end of the reliability curve as well as ammunition. Since most things follow a normal statistical distribution it is understandable you will see failures at the so called "infant mortality" end of a Weibull distribution. www.turbopower.com/products/systools/random/ Myth #3 is false.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 11:35:55 AM EDT
Proof that Myth#2 is TRUE!!!



Link Posted: 7/13/2002 12:20:41 PM EDT
yojimbo,
ROTFLMFAO That is the proof I have needed all these years.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:07:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:11:38 PM EDT
Never had an ammo problem with my 2 Bushmasters. I shoot 99% reloads I do myself. the only factory stuff I shoot is PMC that the neighbor FBI Agent gets from work. PMC is what they shoot for practice ammo. I guess they get it at a real good price. They use Federal 69gr Gold Metal Match for the real deal. Oh yea , neighbor never has trouble with ammo in his issue Colt 16" flat top CAR.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 4:59:26 PM EDT
Look at the box of PMC and see where it is made. I just bought a box of 30 carbine which is made in the Philippins. I have not had a need to buy ammo for several years, but I know I always tried to use PMC whenever possible in any caliber. But the old boxes say made in korea. Maybe there has been a change in quality.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 5:12:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 5:21:54 PM EDT
ever notice how new members open a thread on a self evident subject and then preach on about shit that is common knowledge. yes, we're all very very proud of you. thank you for dispelling these myths for me. i always thought my rifles were fragile, undependable, inaccurate pieces of shit that were designed to wound. thank you for showing me the light.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 5:48:05 PM EDT
Don't sugar coat it DvlDog, tell 'em how you really feel.

colt

Link Posted: 7/13/2002 6:25:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2002 6:26:45 PM EDT by FALShootist]
Cool Mattel M16 A1. People talk about them but thats the only one I've ever seen.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 6:29:08 PM EDT
it's not a real photo, FALshootist, it's been photoshopped, that pic pops up evry coupla months or so.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 6:36:38 PM EDT
scottfn308 -

#5 - You can hop the wagon at some forum, pontificate like you've been there for years, and get a warm reception.

Link Posted: 7/13/2002 8:03:40 PM EDT
Never used an M16 in the service, since I was part of the M1/M14 army, but have been an AR15 owner for something like 25 years. The ONLY malfuntions I've ever experienced were the oft reported weak extractor spring number in my SP1 carbine, after about 3000 rounds. Have 3 of them now, including a new home built "Rock/Master" M4gery. Fine weapons--in fact so fine that I haven't dropped a hammer on any of my 5 AKs, Galil, or Valmet in nearly a year. But of course, we all know that---that's why we're on this site in the first place!
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:44:09 AM EDT
Sorry guys I was just trying to get a few other impressions on a few things.
I have been shooting all types of military firearms including the AR-15 for about 15 years, and yes I am new to this website so excuse me for pontificating like I am an expert, and stating obvious bullshit. I was just trying to get some other takes on the subjects I posted.
Just because I don't have over 500 posts dosen't mean I'm a moron.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 3:00:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottfn308:
Sorry guys I was just trying to get a few other impressions on a few things.
I have been shooting all types of military firearms including the AR-15 for about 15 years, and yes I am new to this website so excuse me for pontificating like I am an expert, and stating obvious bullshit. I was just trying to get some other takes on the subjects I posted.
Just because I don't have over 500 posts dosen't mean I'm a moron.




He's right. I see some of you people with about 3500 post picking on the new guys. Just because someone has very little post does not mean he is a blithering idiot. The newbies (I consider myself one) just need some direction/understanding of how we operate around here. Some of you are so stuck up, it make me embarassed.

Remember, at one point in time, you did not know the difference between .223, and 5.56. Everyone at this board are at different skill/knowledge levels/post counts. Treat everyone with respect here, and everyone will treat you with respect. Instead of berating someone who states the obvious, try and add to his knowledge, and state the not-so-obvious.

That's all.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 3:59:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Uhlek:


He's right. I see some of you people with about 3500 post picking on the new guys. Just because someone has very little post does not mean he is a blithering idiot. The newbies (I consider myself one) just need some direction/understanding of how we operate around here. Some of you are so stuck up, it make me embarassed.




New members should be encouraged not leaped upon. New to this site does not automatically mean new to firearms.

Now, I do leap upon new posters who create topics such as "Where can I get an unregistered, illegal DIAS to illegally convert my illegal postban (with illegal flash-suppressor) AR-15..........."
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 4:03:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Now, I do leap upon new posters who create topics such as "Where can I get an unregistered, illegal DIAS to illegally convert my illegal postban (with illegal flash-suppressor) AR-15..........."



Well, uneducated and stupid are two different things, I should have made a distiction I guess. I apologize.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 4:12:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Uhlek:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Now, I do leap upon new posters who create topics such as "Where can I get an unregistered, illegal DIAS to illegally convert my illegal postban (with illegal flash-suppressor) AR-15..........."



Well, uneducated and stupid are two different things, I should have made a distiction I guess. I apologize.



I'm more talking about the (mostly) obvious trolls.........not someone who comes here for information. (I came here for information.)

The primary thrust of your post is absolutely correct. We need to do a better job of attracting new participants. My first post was attacked by three long-time members and for an obscure technical reason that really was not pertinent to the topic. I still remember who the a$$holes were.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 4:26:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Uhlek:

Originally Posted By scottfn308:
Sorry guys I was just trying to get a few other impressions on a few things.
I have been shooting all types of military firearms including the AR-15 for about 15 years, and yes I am new to this website so excuse me for pontificating like I am an expert, and stating obvious bullshit. I was just trying to get some other takes on the subjects I posted.
Just because I don't have over 500 posts dosen't mean I'm a moron.




He's right. I see some of you people with about 3500 post picking on the new guys. Just because someone has very little post does not mean he is a blithering idiot. The newbies (I consider myself one) just need some direction/understanding of how we operate around here. Some of you are so stuck up, it make me embarassed.

Remember, at one point in time, you did not know the difference between .223, and 5.56. Everyone at this board are at different skill/knowledge levels/post counts. Treat everyone with respect here, and everyone will treat you with respect. Instead of berating someone who states the obvious, try and add to his knowledge, and state the not-so-obvious.

That's all.


=============================================

absolutely correct !!!!!!!

i have been shooting since i was 12 y.o. & fighting the anti gunners since i was 20 y.o., put 25 years in the U.S. Navy (yes ! the Navy does have small arms too !!) firing many different types of weapons, military & personal, i am 65 y.o. & know a lot..., BUT !!! i belive i still have a lot to learn & that is why i am here, i may be a "newbie" on this BB, but i am an old hand at the shooting sport in general...........

Top Top