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Posted: 11/9/2005 7:35:49 AM EDT
OK, for those of you who have expressed some interest in the MP5/10 currently being offered by Vector Arms (it's built by Coharie, which as we all know is actually Special Weapons/Todd Bailey) I did get my gun yesterday. Since I live about 2 miles from my gun club's range, I couldn't resist going there first thing this morning to take my new gun for a test run.

A few preliminaries, I'm not someone who ordinarily pays a great deal of attention to finish. All my guns are shooters that will eventually get dinged anyway, so I care a lot more how they function. However, since I don't have a digital camera, I will try to describe condition of finish.

I would give it a 8.5 or 9 out of 10. Definitely looks a lot better than pictures I've seen posted of the raw Coharie receivers. Finish is generally even and uniform. Opening for magazine straight and uniform. Welds are pretty clean. Appearance is not flawless, but overall looks pretty good.

Gun came with fake suppressor to get barrel to appropriate length, an instruction manual and one plastic mag.

Did quick field strip of gun. Barrel appeared to have a powder residue in it, and when I pulled a patch through it, some dirt came out, so I assume gun was at least test fired. Otherwise gun was very clean ( as you would expect from new firearm). Various pieces fit together nicely. Stock and trigger pack are snug but not impossible to remove.

After pulling a couple of patches through barrel, and generally coating everything with some Breakfree (which I do with most of my guns) I'm ready to rock and roll.

First observation, pulling the bolt back is not as smooth as my used HK94 or my IGF built HK94 clone. Definitely feels a little rough/sticky.

Putting in mag - definitely a snug fit. Paddle mag release is a nice feature. However, mag does not seat with the "click" I'm ordinarily used to. Don't know if this is because its plastic, but its hard to tell if mag is all the way in. Also, fit is snug, have to exert a little force to seat mag and then to remove it. Really only way to tell if mag is seated is to pull down on it to see if its still loose. Rounds go into mag pretty easily though and no problems with sticktion

Now for the $64,000 question, how does it actually run? Unfortunately, the answer is not very well at all.

Loaded 10 rounds of Remington 10mm ammo into mag and dropped the bolt on the first round. Bang. No problem. (Trigger is actually pretty good, better than either my HK94 or my clone). Pull trigger again. Bang. Unfortunately, from that point forward it was all downhill. Second round failed to eject. Casing was extracted from the chamber but failed to eject from gun, basically getting jammed in the receiver. Remove mag, extract casing, replace mag, drop bolt on next round. Bang, but again casing fails to eject. Ended up firing 8 more rounds and having 7 more failures to eject. Each time round is extracted from chamber, but spent shell casing ends up getting jammed in the gun.

Decided to try a different ammo. Also had some Georgia Arms 10mm ammo on hand. This is stuff I use all the time and like a lot. 180 grain FMJ round. Company claims 1100 fps. (Don't know what the figure is for the Remington). Exact same problem. Casing is extracted from chamber but not ejected. Fired 5 rounds and had 5 failures to eject. Didn't seem to make much sense to keep going. Bottom line, shot 15 rounds and had 12-13 FTE. Obviously not very good.

However, in fairness, it is my understanding that in these guns the locking pieces have to be matched to the ammo and a mis-match can cause exactly the problem I had, a FTE. So my hope is that I can trade out my current locking piece for one that works with the ammo I ordinarily use and gun will run 100%. I will be contacting Vector today or tomorrow.
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 8:37:14 AM EDT
OK - quick update. Just got off the phone Vector. They called me because I volunteered to test various locking pieces for them. She's going to be sending me 2 locking pieces to test. I took this opportunity to explain the problems I was having. She actually put Todd B. on, and I spoke with him at some length. His preliminary diagnosis, may be a problem with the ejector. Doesn't appear to be a locking piece problem. To his credit, he agreed to enclose a new ejector with the locking pieces. Also told me that if I continued to have problems to e-mail him and he would work with me to correct.

Will keep everyone posted

Also, if anyone else is starting to get the 10mm of .40 version of these guns, I'd be interested to know what your experience is.
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 10:22:44 AM EDT
Good to know.

Please keep us informed.

(Tagged for updates.)
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 10:34:06 AM EDT
A review of a long awaited product with no pics???? Are you some kind of beta tester and not allowed to show pics? Maybe no digicam??
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 10:38:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2005 10:39:49 AM EDT by bones21]

Originally Posted By hkinfl:
A review of a long awaited product with no pics???? Are you some kind of beta tester and not allowed to show pics? Maybe no digicam??



Holy Shit..... I think I think.... he..... may...... just..... not...... have......a........DIGITAL CAMERA !!!!





Originally Posted By pippin:
OK, for those of you who have expressed some interest in the MP5/10 currently being offered by Vector Arms (it's built by Coharie, which as we all know is actually Special Weapons/Todd Bailey) I did get my gun yesterday. Since I live about 2 miles from my gun club's range, I couldn't resist going there first thing this morning to take my new gun for a test run.

A few preliminaries, I'm not someone who ordinarily pays a great deal of attention to finish. All my guns are shooters that will eventually get dinged anyway, so I care a lot more how they function. However, since I don't have a digital camera, I will try to describe condition of finish.

I would give it a 8.5 or 9 out of 10. Definitely looks a lot better than pictures I've seen posted of the raw Coharie receivers. Finish is generally even and uniform. Opening for magazine straight and uniform. Welds are pretty clean. Appearance is not flawless, but overall looks pretty good.

Gun came with fake suppressor to get barrel to appropriate length, an instruction manual and one plastic mag.

Did quick field strip of gun. Barrel appeared to have a powder residue in it, and when I pulled a patch through it, some dirt came out, so I assume gun was at least test fired. Otherwise gun was very clean ( as you would expect from new firearm). Various pieces fit together nicely. Stock and trigger pack are snug but not impossible to remove.

After pulling a couple of patches through barrel, and generally coating everything with some Breakfree (which I do with most of my guns) I'm ready to rock and roll.

First observation, pulling the bolt back is not as smooth as my used HK94 or my IGF built HK94 clone. Definitely feels a little rough/sticky.

Putting in mag - definitely a snug fit. Paddle mag release is a nice feature. However, mag does not seat with the "click" I'm ordinarily used to. Don't know if this is because its plastic, but its hard to tell if mag is all the way in. Also, fit is snug, have to exert a little force to seat mag and then to remove it. Really only way to tell if mag is seated is to pull down on it to see if its still loose. Rounds go into mag pretty easily though and no problems with sticktion

Now for the $64,000 question, how does it actually run? Unfortunately, the answer is not very well at all.

Loaded 10 rounds of Remington 10mm ammo into mag and dropped the bolt on the first round. Bang. No problem. (Trigger is actually pretty good, better than either my HK94 or my clone). Pull trigger again. Bang. Unfortunately, from that point forward it was all downhill. Second round failed to eject. Casing was extracted from the chamber but failed to eject from gun, basically getting jammed in the receiver. Remove mag, extract casing, replace mag, drop bolt on next round. Bang, but again casing fails to eject. Ended up firing 8 more rounds and having 7 more failures to eject. Each time round is extracted from chamber, but spent shell casing ends up getting jammed in the gun.

Decided to try a different ammo. Also had some Georgia Arms 10mm ammo on hand. This is stuff I use all the time and like a lot. 180 grain FMJ round. Company claims 1100 fps. (Don't know what the figure is for the Remington). Exact same problem. Casing is extracted from chamber but not ejected. Fired 5 rounds and had 5 failures to eject. Didn't seem to make much sense to keep going. Bottom line, shot 15 rounds and had 12-13 FTE. Obviously not very good.

However, in fairness, it is my understanding that in these guns the locking pieces have to be matched to the ammo and a mis-match can cause exactly the problem I had, a FTE. So my hope is that I can trade out my current locking piece for one that works with the ammo I ordinarily use and gun will run 100%. I will be contacting Vector today or tomorrow.

Link Posted: 11/9/2005 10:46:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pippin:
However, in fairness, it is my understanding that in these guns the locking pieces have to be matched to the ammo and a mis-match can cause exactly the problem I had, a FTE. So my hope is that I can trade out my current locking piece for one that works with the ammo I ordinarily use and gun will run 100%. I will be contacting Vector today or tomorrow.



After looking at the MP5 armorer's manual, it looks like you need either stronger ammo (since Remington/UMC 10mm is pretty anemic) or one of SW's 100-degree LPs. Best of luck and keep us informed.
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 10:55:50 AM EDT
You are correct. To show you what a fossil I am, the only camera I own is an old Nikon that is fully manual. That's right, no auto focus, you set the f-stop, you set the shutter speed. (Probably no one here under 40 understands what I'm talking about).:) For those interested in pics, I would suggest you go to HK54.com. Todd has posted some pics of various models. I have the MP5/10 model. Regular stock, barrel w/fake suppressor (so it meets 16" requirement). I would say the picture on his website is an accurate depiction of what I received.

BTW - I do like the weight and balance of the gun. Also, can't give you an exhaustive evaluation of its accuracy. Shooting from standing position, but supporting my arm on a table at a target 7.5 yards away produced a 5 shot group that was one hole about the size of a 50 cent piece. However, site clearly needs to be adjusted, POI was about 4" to the left and 1" down from POA.
Of course, that was the least of my problems given repeated failures to eject.

However, as I said before, so far Todd B. seems willing to work with me to rectify problem. I do think if we can fix the reliability problems this is going to be an awesome gun. I really like the light weight and balance. As you might guess, 10mm round has a little more recoil than the 9mm, but its still very mild. Comes with ambidexterous trigger pack, which is great for me since I shoot lefty. With 10mm round this will be an awesome plincking gun out to 100 yards. Now I've just got to get the damn thing working.
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 11:00:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShakenNotStirred:

After looking at the MP5 armorer's manual, it looks like you need either stronger ammo (since Remington/UMC 10mm is pretty anemic) or one of SW's 100-degree LPs. Best of luck and keep us informed.



I bought the Remington because it was only 10mm ammo the gun shop/FFL had in stock. However, also shot a few rounds of Georgia Arms 10mm ammo with similar problems. The Georgia arms stuff is 180 grain FMJ and 1100 fps. Certainly not as hot as Double Tap, but not what I'd consider anemic either. Todd seemed to feel it was not an ammo problem (although he apparently didn't think much of the Remington ammo either).
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 11:10:02 AM EDT
I promise I read the whole thing Bones, I did I did.
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 12:47:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hkinfl:
I promise I read the whole thing Bones, I did I did.



I'm sure you did... I just felt like being an asshole

You did deserve the slap though


So anyway, back to the issues with the new gun.

My only experience with 10mm ammo has been due to my G-20. I have only used doubletap & winchester silvertip ammo in my gun. So I can only really comment on those two brands, although I have tried various loads in the two.

There are a lot of companies that water their 10mm load down to almost .40 cal, so I would suggest trying several types of ammo. It is a well known fact (to 10mm folks) that doubletap are extreme 10mm enthusiasts and promoters and they pride themselves on selling FULL power 10mm loads, the way God intended. Or if memory serves, the way Norma intended

I know that some will jump in here real soon and slam SW because the gun should work RIGHT when it comes out of the box. I tend to agree, but for the sake of pippin's thread let's just keep it focused on his issue

Also, I don't have a scanner with me at the moment, but I am looking at my MP5 armorer's manual and it seems that HK puts Remington into the "Low Impulse" catagory. I think it would be safe to assume that all remington ammo would be loaded similar, although I could be totally wrong. The suggested locking piece is the LO 24, or Low 24

For the sake of me being lazy and not wanting to search the manual... I will let someone else chime in on what "degree" locking piece a 24 & 25 is.

Anyway, since Bailey said it seems to be an extraction issue... you may just swap that part out and give it a try. Until you get the part you might try to buy a box of "hotter" ammo to see if that helps the extraction... one never knows

Good luck and keep us posted... and go find a friend with a digital camera

Link Posted: 11/9/2005 12:59:24 PM EDT
You have the choice to ignore this post!

I HATE to say this but, I have a premonition.


I had the same problem with my SW. TB was helpful at first but after he couldn't fix it himself, things went downhill.

The same could possibly happen to you.


Here is a suggestion...

If it doesn't work now, return it while you still can or - you will be in a world of shit...


I'm interested in seeing how the rest of this turns out...


Link Posted: 11/9/2005 2:21:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pippin:
The Georgia arms stuff is 180 grain FMJ and 1100 fps. Certainly not as hot as Double Tap, but not what I'd consider anemic either.



Norma spec was 170gr @ 1400 fps. So 1100 fps is VERY anemic. You have .40 is basically what you have.
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 3:31:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pippin:
OK - quick update. Just got off the phone Vector. They called me because I volunteered to test various locking pieces for them. She's going to be sending me 2 locking pieces to test. I took this opportunity to explain the problems I was having. She actually put Todd B. on, and I spoke with him at some length.



Are you saying you called Vector in the state of Utah and they put you on the phone with Todd in Arizona? Or, are you referring to 'She' as Wendy, Todd's wife of Tactical Weapons?
Link Posted: 11/10/2005 9:24:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By killswitch:

Norma spec was 170gr @ 1400 fps. So 1100 fps is VERY anemic. You have .40 is basically what you have.


Don't want to get into a pissing contest with you, but I took a quick look at some of the commercial loads currently available. Here's some of the data I found:

Blazer - 1150 fps
Federal HiShock - 1018
American Eagle - 1030 (this is apparently what Special Weapons uses to test fire guns)
Hornady XTP - 1180
PMC Standard 1050
PMC Strarfire 950
DoubleTap 1350 (hotest load I could find)
CorBon 1300 (next hotest load I could find)

These are all for 180 grain bullets (although not all FMJ), so we're comparing apples to apples. I know that some people feel that a lot of commercial ammo makers download the 10mm, but it looks like Georgia Arms is pretty much in the middle of the pack and not what I'd call very anemic.

Also, I happen to own a S&W 610 revolver, which can shoot both .40 S&W and 10mm. I promise you there is a very noticable difference in recoil between the Georgia Arms 10mm I've shot and every brand of 40 S&W I've shot from this gun.

I don't disagree that the 10mm round could be loaded a lot hotter than it is by most mfg., but looking at the range of commercial ammo that's available, I think the Georgia Arms stuff is pretty much in the middle of the pack, and frankly should be able to function in an MP5/10 clone. Frankly, I can't afford to shoot nothing but Double Tap out of this gun.:)
Link Posted: 11/10/2005 9:31:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Las_Vegas_HK:

Are you saying you called Vector in the state of Utah and they put you on the phone with Todd in Arizona? Or, are you referring to 'She' as Wendy, Todd's wife of Tactical Weapons?


I think you are correct. I didn't make the call. Someone called me to follow up on my gun. It was a woman. Not sure I even got her name. I assumed it was Vector (always spoke to a woman there - Michelle I think).

Upon reflection, you're probably right it was Cohaire/Special Weapons since I did speak with Todd and of course he's not at Vector.
Link Posted: 11/10/2005 10:33:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pippin:

Originally Posted By killswitch:

Norma spec was 170gr @ 1400 fps. So 1100 fps is VERY anemic. You have .40 is basically what you have.


Don't want to get into a pissing contest with you, but I took a quick look at some of the commercial loads currently available. Here's some of the data I found:

Blazer - 1150 fps
Federal HiShock - 1018
American Eagle - 1030 (this is apparently what Special Weapons uses to test fire guns)
Hornady XTP - 1180
PMC Standard 1050
PMC Strarfire 950
DoubleTap 1350 (hotest load I could find)
CorBon 1300 (next hotest load I could find)

These are all for 180 grain bullets (although not all FMJ), so we're comparing apples to apples. I know that some people feel that a lot of commercial ammo makers download the 10mm, but it looks like Georgia Arms is pretty much in the middle of the pack and not what I'd call very anemic.

Also, I happen to own a S&W 610 revolver, which can shoot both .40 S&W and 10mm. I promise you there is a very noticable difference in recoil between the Georgia Arms 10mm I've shot and every brand of 40 S&W I've shot from this gun.

I don't disagree that the 10mm round could be loaded a lot hotter than it is by most mfg., but looking at the range of commercial ammo that's available, I think the Georgia Arms stuff is pretty much in the middle of the pack, and frankly should be able to function in an MP5/10 clone. Frankly, I can't afford to shoot nothing but Double Tap out of this gun.:)



Double Taps 180gr .40 load does 1140 fps. So what does your GA 10mm load do for you that DT's .40 load doesnt do? Answer it goes 40 fps SLOWER than a legit .40 loading. If you dont want 1300 fps, stick with .40 , atleast it has an excuse why its so slow, instead of just bastardized pissant ammo. I'll shut up now, as this isnt the place for this topic.
Link Posted: 11/11/2005 3:59:07 AM EDT
With the 10mm, he has the option of shooting more expensive, full-power ammo, while mainly shooting cheap(er), lower-powered bulk ammo. I think that kind of versatility is a plus.
Link Posted: 11/11/2005 7:00:34 AM EDT
[quote]Originally Posted By kc3:
With the 10mm, he has the option of shooting more expensive, full-power ammo, while mainly shooting cheap(er), lower-powered bulk ammo. I think that kind of versatility is a plus.


Thank you. Plus double tap .40 S&W = $16.50/50 rounds

Georgia Arms 10mm = $11/50 rounds

So yes, your getting similar performance out of your .40 round, it's just costing you 1/3 more to do it.

Finally, I live in Mass. Most mfg. won't ship ammo into this state, so mail order purchases are tough. Finding a place with a good selection of Double Tap here is also basically impossible, so this isn't really an option for me (in .40 or 10mm).

I do agree though that we're getting off topic. I think we're all more interested in hearing from others who have bought these new guns and what their experience is, whether its with the .40, the 10mm or the .357.
Link Posted: 11/11/2005 10:55:55 AM EDT
I think the reason the ammo debate came up is that the MP5/10 was probably designed for the hotter Norma-spec 10mm stuff.

If the Coharie copy of the MP5/10 was copied from a stock HK gun, this might explain the issue (utilizing the stock locking piece).

I think he was trying to suggest you put full-power 10mm stuff in your gun and see if that resolves the issue.

If a new locking piece solves the problem with the weak ammo, then, sweet.
Link Posted: 11/11/2005 12:00:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/11/2005 2:56:45 PM EDT by alwaystryin]

Originally Posted By kythri:
I think the reason the ammo debate came up is that the MP5/10 was probably designed for the hotter Norma-spec 10mm stuff.



Coharie uses Federal (Eagle) 10mm to test at the factory. That's 180 @ 1060fps.
Link Posted: 11/11/2005 12:19:07 PM EDT
if this is representative of your gun................very nice and good luck sorting out the feed issues

Link Posted: 11/17/2005 3:33:45 PM EDT
Today I got in line for one of the 50 full size pistols in 40 cal that they have incoming. The only problem is that I'm 54th in that line. How's about some of you guys cancel your order?
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 4:20:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Accomplice:
Today I got in line for one of the 50 full size pistols in 40 cal that they have incoming. The only problem is that I'm 54th in that line. How's about some of you guys cancel your order?



I cancelled my 10mm today.
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 5:30:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2005 5:31:12 PM EDT by COMMANDO]

Originally Posted By warriorsociologist:

Originally Posted By Accomplice:
Today I got in line for one of the 50 full size pistols in 40 cal that they have incoming. The only problem is that I'm 54th in that line. How's about some of you guys cancel your order?



I cancelled my 10mm today.



Why??
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 5:39:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2005 5:41:43 PM EDT by warriorsociologist]
Based on the threads I have been following here and many other places...I guess I didn't trust it...and for the money, I would rather have another AR carbine + the Glock 20 Longslide I am building. A second issue is that I like to reload my brass more than once (make that about 7-10 times) and my guess is that the fluted chamber won't leave my brass in the condition I want it in (10mm brass is too "precious" for me to fire and forget). I was getting the full-size pistol version anyway (not the rifle) but now I'm going to let you others have their fun/misery with these this time around.

Anywy, I have no regrets - even if these things turn out great.

Have fun.
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 6:16:47 PM EDT
Tag....interested in the outcome.

Bomber
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 7:13:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warriorsociologist:
Based on the threads I have been following here and many other places...I guess I didn't trust it...and for the money, I would rather have another AR carbine + the Glock 20 Longslide I am building. A second issue is that I like to reload my brass more than once (make that about 7-10 times) and my guess is that the fluted chamber won't leave my brass in the condition I want it in (10mm brass is too "precious" for me to fire and forget). I was getting the full-size pistol version anyway (not the rifle) but now I'm going to let you others have their fun/misery with these this time around.

Anywy, I have no regrets - even if these things turn out great.

Have fun.



Your right it is quite a risk ! my mp5 .357 sig is on it's way and should be here sometime next week ! I only hope it looks and runs as good as my v 53 !
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 10:06:02 PM EDT
Vector is really good about standing behind their products so they'll make it right if there are issues.
Link Posted: 11/18/2005 10:19:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2005 10:21:49 AM EDT by pippin]
OK, thought I'd give everyone an update. Went back to the range. Todd B. had suggested that I try putting a couple of rounds through the gun when the mag was removed. He felt that if the gun still failed to eject the spent casing, it was likely to be the ejector spring. Did what he suggested and shot another 4-5 rounds. None of the rounds ejected properly. One fell out the mag well. The others spent casings ended up getting crushed in the gun, when the bolt recyled. Oh - the bolt hold open device broke. (Device consists of cylindrical metal rod with a kind of tab attached to it, the tab broke off).

Todd is supposedly sending me out a new ejector spring, which he wants me to install. Also suggested that I "remove material from the front of the grip frame". The grip frame/trigger pack/whatever you call it fits the receiver VERY tightly. Todd seemed to think this might be part of the problem. Although I am admittedly no expert when it comes to these guns, I was kind of pessimistic about this solving the problem. So I e-mailed Jayson at IGF (who is an expert). Jayson recently built an HK94 clone for me (with a Special Weapons receiver) and did a FANTASTIC job. For those of you who may not be familiar with Jayson he is THE MAN when it comes to building/repairing HK clones.

Jayson e-mailed me back within 24 hours and was also somewhat skeptical that replacing the ejector spring would fix this problem. He also indicated that a couple of other people have contacted him with similar complaints.

Then I e-mailed Vector and told them about the problems I was having. To Vector's credit, I received an immediate response from them and they offered to pay for me to ship gun back for either a repair or replacement (which is what I think I'm going to do).

I guess, you could say that I'm kind of disappointed that my gun has had so many problems right out of the box. However, I also understand that this is a completely new product and that my gun was one of the first produced. Therefore I basically have no issue with their being a couple of bugs that need to be worked out. Moreover, so far, I am very impressed with Vector's willingness to try to address these problems and to put things right. If they are able to repair my current gun, or send me a new one that functions properly I will consider myself a very satisfied customer. However, if it comes back from Vector and there are still problems the gun will be sent out to Jayson to work his magic. I will also count myself an unsatisfied customer, since I shouldn't have to spend additional money to get a $1500 gun to function properly. However, right now Vector gets the benefit of the doubt since they appear to be very responsive in trying to address my problems.


Will try to keep everyone posted on how this turns out, since I know there are a bunch of other people out there who have expressed an interest in these guns. Again, if there are other members out there who have recently bought one of these guns I'd love to know what your experience has been. I did see a post on another board by someone who bought the .40 version of this gun and appeared to be 100% satisfied.

Link Posted: 11/18/2005 12:48:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pippin:


Then I e-mailed Vector and told them about the problems I was having. To Vector's credit, I received an immediate response from them and they offered to pay for me to ship gun back for either a repair or replacement (which is what I think I'm going to do).






Do it now!

It is not going to get any better!

Repeat this process until they send you one that works flawlessly.


I never had this opportunity...
Link Posted: 11/18/2005 12:57:51 PM EDT
Eject!

Eject!

Eject!
Things are going to get worse not better.
Link Posted: 11/18/2005 1:31:00 PM EDT
The thing I wonder about is how did this gun get out of house. To me that speaks volumes about their attititude towards QC. In one post you were being too forgiving citing the fact it's a new gun. The fact is, it's a gun and should not have been marketed until in was SAFE and RELIABLE.

I wish you the best of luck and hope in the end, that they get their stuff together. I really would like to get a PDW style 10mm.

Bomber
Link Posted: 11/18/2005 2:33:43 PM EDT
I would take Jayson's word...


How many bad guns has IGF produced?
How many unhappy customers does he have?

Now, how many bad guns has Todd produced?
How many unhappy customers does he have?



Exactly...

Link Posted: 11/18/2005 9:36:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pippin:
You are correct. To show you what a fossil I am, the only camera I own is an old Nikon that is fully manual. That's right, no auto focus, you set the f-stop, you set the shutter speed. (Probably no one here under 40 understands what I'm talking about).:) For those interested in pics, I would suggest you go to HK54.com. Todd has posted some pics of various models. I have the MP5/10 model. Regular stock, barrel w/fake suppressor (so it meets 16" requirement). I would say the picture on his website is an accurate depiction of what I received.

BTW - I do like the weight and balance of the gun. Also, can't give you an exhaustive evaluation of its accuracy. Shooting from standing position, but supporting my arm on a table at a target 7.5 yards away produced a 5 shot group that was one hole about the size of a 50 cent piece. However, site clearly needs to be adjusted, POI was about 4" to the left and 1" down from POA.
Of course, that was the least of my problems given repeated failures to eject.

However, as I said before, so far Todd B. seems willing to work with me to rectify problem. I do think if we can fix the reliability problems this is going to be an awesome gun. I really like the light weight and balance. As you might guess, 10mm round has a little more recoil than the 9mm, but its still very mild. Comes with ambidexterous trigger pack, which is great for me since I shoot lefty. With 10mm round this will be an awesome plincking gun out to 100 yards. Now I've just got to get the damn thing working.



Nope...I use a Cannon AE-1. Works better than any other 35mm camera I've ever touched. Unfortunately digicams do have them beat. Too damn handy. As for pics, go to Walmart and have them placed on a CD when you get the pics developed. Then upload them to the internet! We want to see!
Link Posted: 11/19/2005 7:15:51 AM EDT
I just picked up my Vector 10mm full size pistol yesterday I havn't had a chance to test it yet. Todd build an MP5 .40 for me on a Coharie receiver with a German de milled MG. And it has run 100% on semi and full auto for about 300 rounds I would say.
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 11:49:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pippin:
I did see a post on another board by someone who bought the .40 version of this gun and appeared to be 100% satisfied.




Could you tell me waht the "other baord" was? I want one in .40 s&w to match my USP Var1.

TIA

Rich B
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 2:18:23 PM EDT
If this Jayson character is so good at bringing the clones up to speed, why the hell doesnt someone hire him to ensure all their firearms fire correctly?
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 2:40:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ungwaha:

Originally Posted By pippin:
I did see a post on another board by someone who bought the .40 version of this gun and appeared to be 100% satisfied.




Could you tell me waht the "other baord" was? I want one in .40 s&w to match my USP Var1.

TIA

Rich B



You probably read it on HKPRO...

You aren't allowed to say anything bad about SW on that board so, you are getting filtered information...
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 3:11:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By Ungwaha:

Originally Posted By pippin:
I did see a post on another board by someone who bought the .40 version of this gun and appeared to be 100% satisfied.




Could you tell me waht the "other baord" was? I want one in .40 s&w to match my USP Var1.

TIA

Rich B



You probably read it on HKPRO...

You aren't allowed to say anything bad about SW on that board so, you are getting filtered information...




You maybe confusing HKpro with HK54. HK pro is very anti SW. HK54 is a sight run by Bailey.


Bomber
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 3:27:55 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 5:55:51 AM EDT
I believe hkpro acutally bans anything SW
Link Posted: 11/22/2005 9:47:53 PM EDT
hkpro doesn't ban SW discussion. They banned Bailey, IIRC.
Give the guy credit for making these things and the parts available. They can be made well, or made to work. There is nobody else making affordable HK pistol caliber clones like these. As Vector gets more heavily involved in the manufacturing they will be more consistent and better functioning. I would wait a while, if I were to get one. However, I have no need for anything in the 40 or 10mm calibers. 9mm is fine for me. I would rather have a used HK94 than a new clone, but that's me.
Link Posted: 11/22/2005 10:44:32 PM EDT
I posted my experience about SW made clones since i am an unfortunate owner of a SW3, SW5 and SW45. They were putting this MP5-40 MP5-10 in the same category of must have new guns such as the upcoming FN P90 and F2000 which is suppose to have a civilian version available to us early next year and also the possibility of a Sig 550. I told everyone not to expect the same reliability from this so called MP5's that SW is making that you will find on FN's and Sig's.
So what he did, called me a troll and deleted my post and disallowed me from logging in again on HK54.com.
I told everyone that the FN's and Sigs will be 100 % reliable out of the box unlike his clones which will need some tinkering before it will work. don't criticize his products, He is suppose to better than HK according to himself.
Now I know why no one else likes this Todd B. guy. The bad thing, i can't even list my SW makde clones on most gun forums to sell since just the mention of his name and you'll get it booted out.
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 7:42:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunmannj:
I posted my experience about SW made clones since i am an unfortunate owner of a SW3, SW5 and SW45. They were putting this MP5-40 MP5-10 in the same category of must have new guns such as the upcoming FN P90 and F2000 which is suppose to have a civilian version available to us early next year and also the possibility of a Sig 550. I told everyone not to expect the same reliability from this so called MP5's that SW is making that you will find on FN's and Sig's.
So what he did, called me a troll and deleted my post and disallowed me from logging in again on HK54.com.
I told everyone that the FN's and Sigs will be 100 % reliable out of the box unlike his clones which will need some tinkering before it will work. don't criticize his products, He is suppose to better than HK according to himself.
Now I know why no one else likes this Todd B. guy. The bad thing, i can't even list my SW makde clones on most gun forums to sell since just the mention of his name and you'll get it booted out.




Welcome to the club...
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 8:17:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2005 8:19:44 AM EDT by hard_cover]
Look at the address for Cohaire Arms' Secretary here.

starpas.cc.state.az.us/cgi-bin/wspd_cgi.sh/WService=wsbroker1/names-detail.p?name-id=F11689783&type=CORPORATION

It comes back to this.

www.activemfg.net

Look at their products.

Encompassing:
Gun body, Magazine, Cap and Spring

Project Included:
• Reverse Engineering
• Laser-Cut Blanks
• Prototype Tooling
• Permanent Tooling
• Forming Dies
• Welding

Link Posted: 11/23/2005 8:50:26 AM EDT
I thought it was funny reading the posts on HK54 because everybody seems to be walking on glass, and if they need something from Todd then they feel they need to compliment him first before asking.
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 9:06:26 AM EDT
a) it may just be me, but I expect something to work out of the box. REcently rethought my DPMS AP4 308 purchase cuase of this (mag issues out of box), had same issues with PTR91, DSA 58C (both of which are working perfcectly now to the people who were willing to wait till they got good!) and yes even a springlifled loaded 1911. IF it works out of the box, my naive assumption is that it will always work due to wuality of design and manufacture.

b) I have had only good words with vector, when I called and asked to speak to the man in charge, no one hesitated and he was very helpful. I don't know why good companies get in bed with bad ones though (vector SW, Krebs Rguns, etc..).

c) jeebuz cripes SEND IT BACK. LET VECTOR HANDLE IT. they're good people, they have hte clout to tell SW get this to work NOW, you don't.
Link Posted: 11/24/2005 9:05:06 AM EDT
Vector is the best.

My 10mm jammed horribly. I could not shoot more than 2 rounds without a FTE.
After 40 rounds the mag hold open broke off and froze the action solid.

Vector gave me a full refund. They totally stood behind it even though they didnt make it.
The gun may have sucked; but Vector is great to do business with and I will certainly purchase more Vector made products.
Link Posted: 11/24/2005 10:47:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By alwaystryin:
Vector is the best.

My 10mm jammed horribly. I could not shoot more than 2 rounds without a FTE.
After 40 rounds the mag hold open broke off and froze the action solid.

Vector gave me a full refund. They totally stood behind it even though they didnt make it.
The gun may have sucked; but Vector is great to do business with and I will certainly purchase more Vector made products.



What did you do to try and fix the fte problem ? and how long did you have this gun before you gave up and sent it back? any pictures ? Iget my .357 sig mp5 tommorrow and hope I have better luck! but it's nice to know vector backs them up 100 % Ray
Link Posted: 11/24/2005 2:57:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By COMMANDO:

What did you do to try and fix the fte problem ? and how long did you have this gun before you gave up and sent it back? any pictures ?



I did not try to fix the problem. The bolt hold open broke off and locked up the gun. I only had it a couple days and only made one range trip with it . No pics but the fit and finish were first rate.



Link Posted: 11/24/2005 3:17:06 PM EDT
WHY would Vector associate themselves with the biggest known scumbag in the firearms industry??

I can't believe there are still suckers that would pay a dime for anything Toad had anything to do with. If I paid $1100 for a gun and it didn't run like an Ethiopian chicken right out of the box I'd be pissed beyond belief, and I sure wouldn't be filing on the fucking thing at the behest of the idiot who made it.

Ol' P.T. Barnum must be giggling his decomposing balls off thinking of his spiritual progeny Toad Bailey.
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