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Posted: 2/18/2007 12:38:58 PM EST
It seems lately more than half of the posts in the Tactical Gear forum are for Chinese copies of American designs. Guys, I understand the desire to save money. I understand how it is to have a limited budget. I just want you guys that are buying this stuff to stop and think about it.

Some of the gear is well made, some not. That is beside the point. I am not posting this to criticize the quality. I want you to think about the fact that a lot of good Americans have spent their time and money investing into companies to design and provide good quality gear for our military (and gear whores like myself). These Chinese companies are stealing these designs from your own countrymen, and you are enabling them by purchasing it.

Some American companies do steal designs from other American companies. I try not to buy from them if I know they do it.

It is very hard to avoid buying Chinese goods because so much of the items we use daily are made there. But consider this when buying gear especially. Most of the good American gear companies out there are or were started by good hard working Americans that support our Constitutional rights. Most of them are gun loving gear whores like ourselves. Many of them have even put their lives on the line for the rest of us at some point.

Please consider saving up a little more and support some of the good guys, instead of these Chinese companies that are stealing designs from them.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 2:27:21 PM EST
Yes lots made in Vietnam also.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 2:47:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/18/2007 3:04:17 PM EST by grooVe]
It's called Free market capitalism.... and "steal" their designs? WTF? They might look like the real thing but they are in no way the same! They are just look alikes made by the chinese to chinese standards; a completely different product. You want me to support US companies? Well guess what... I DO TOO! But i have no need for a $1300 optic when a $200 one will do just fine! Why can't US companies make scopes that look as nice as there $1300 scopes but have the quality of their $200 scopes? If they did that I would buy from them.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 3:17:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By grooVe:
It's called Free market capitalism.... and "steal" their designs? WTF? They might look like the real thing but they are in no way the same! They are just look alikes made by the chinese to chinese standards; a completely different product. You want me to support US companies? Well guess what... I DO TOO! But i have no need for a $1300 optic when a $200 one will do just fine! Why can't US companies make scopes that look as nice as there $1300 scopes but have the quality of their $200 scopes? If they did that I would buy from them.


Funny how you bring up Free Market Capitalism, and then send your money to a Communist country.

And are you really trying to say you can't find a decent quality optic made somewhere other than China for $200? Wrong. There are several companies that have their products made in free countries like Japan.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 3:26:43 PM EST
I think most people here would prefer to buy American......if it was affordable. For many people, it often isn't.

I mean take just one example: You want a chest rig and you start looking around. All of the American made stuff you see is priced at $125 or $150 or more. Then you find a similar rig in a Cheaper Than Dirt catalog that sells for $30.00.

Now, for your average consumer, how many will opt for the $30.00 rig over the $150.00 rig?

There's your answer. I think most people would prefer to buy American. And I think most would anyway if the price gap was a bit less. Say for instance that the American made rig was only about $50 or $60, I think most people here probably would be willing to pay double just to get the American made product. But many aren't willing to pay triple, quadruple, or more for the American product. I can understand this, even sympathize with this thinking.

I blame this not on China or on consumers. I blame it where I place a great deal of blame in general these days......UNIONS. There's the people who have screwed us over. I have heard my dad talking about working for $3.00 per hour in the 60's and having his money go far further than it does today. All those wage increases the unions have demanded over the years have basically priced American workers out of jobs and American companies out of the market. Some people are so silly they only think of the wage increases putting more money in their pockets. But in reality, whenever wages go up, everything else goes up as a result. Everything from the gathering of raw materials, to refining those raw materials into usuable goods to shipping said items from factories to the final sale of the product all goes up as well. This is why so many American companies are closing up their doors here and moving factories overseas. You simply can't make a profit in this nation anymore and produce a product capable of competing with foreign goods because of how high salaries are getting. Look at inflation and cost of living over the past 30 to 40 years and you'll see what I am talking about.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 3:35:23 PM EST
My big complaint is the "fake out" many chinese companies advertise thier stuff as multicam, but it really isnt mutlticam, And check out the Crye page about this, They are fighting tooth and nail to stop it.


There's your answer. I think most people would prefer to buy American. And I think most would anyway if the price gap was a bit less. Say for instance that the American made rig was only about $50 or $60, I think most people here probably would be willing to pay double just to get the American made product. But many aren't willing to pay triple, quadruple, or more for the American product. I can understand this, even sympathize with this thinking.


All I have to say about thsi is blackhawk, TO me they are the worst company out there, Not only are they making thier stuff in vietnam in sweat shops, But they are passing it of as "Designed by a navy seal" and selling it at prices comparable to that of eagle and HSGI, Not cool in my book, many people see blackhawk and thing, Navy seal=US made, And hes not even passing the saving on to the customer.

Maxpedition on the other hand is made in sweatshops and give you sweatshop prices.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 3:43:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:
Funny how you bring up Free Market Capitalism, and then send your money to a Communist country.


You know what, I agree with you but as it stands the vast majority of what you buy is from China anyways!!! So it isn't like we aren't "supporting them" already. Is it right? No not really, but it is what it is. The only point I was trying to make is that they are doing what others are refusing to do in the US. Build an economic scope that doesn't look as ugly as sin and you would have people buying them in droves!! $1300 or $200... at that point my conscience starts to shut the hell up.

Also, I think there needs to be a distinction made between supporting the people and the government.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 3:46:47 PM EST
When American companies stop trying to overcharge the crap out of gear, I'll start buying it.

But there's no way in hell I'm paying 50 bucks for a double AR mag pouch.

An Eagle PC all "did up" can end up costing $400-500 without the price of armor. Sorry, but that's f-ing nuts, even if the thing IS well made.

Link Posted: 2/18/2007 4:00:02 PM EST
Guys, I understand that a lot of gear is VERY expensive. But there are a lot of great companies making gear at reasonable prices. The funny thing to me is the majority of people that buy the Chinese knock-off stuff will probably never even need it.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 4:02:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:
Guys, I understand that a lot of gear is VERY expensive. But there are a lot of great companies making gear at reasonable prices. The funny thing to me is the majority of people that buy the Chinese knock-off stuff will probably never even need it.


That's precisely the reason that I can't justify spending $400-500 on a rig. I'll probably never use it here, and I get issued gear when I'm there. Aside from classes, it'll sit on its ass.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 4:12:38 PM EST
BrandonP, I know where you're coming from. I love Eagle, but do not buy their MLCS line because the pouches are priced too high IMO. But there are plenty of quality American made alternatives that are less expensive.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 4:32:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/18/2007 4:37:44 PM EST by exocet]

Originally Posted By grooVe:
It's called Free market capitalism.... and "steal" their designs? WTF? They might look like the real thing but they are in no way the same! They are just look alikes made by the chinese to chinese standards; a completely different product. You want me to support US companies? Well guess what... I DO TOO! But i have no need for a $1300 optic when a $200 one will do just fine! Why can't US companies make scopes that look as nice as there $1300 scopes but have the quality of their $200 scopes? If they did that I would buy from them.


the question is : would you agree to get paid $.50 per hour ?...labor cost...R&D..everything has a cost...my company is subcontracting software development to India because 1 US engineer salary = 4 to 5 Indian engineers...
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 5:23:38 PM EST
I'd work for $.50 per hour, if the unions hadn't came in and jacked the price of everything else up. But why would I take a job for $.50 per hour, when I can sweep the floor at GM, or Ford for $20+ an hour. Plus take all the naps I want.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 5:27:42 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By BrandonP:
That's precisely the reason that I can't justify spending $400-500 on a rig. I'll probably never use it here, and I get issued gear when I'm there. Aside from classes, it'll sit on its ass.


Exactly. They give me the stuff I use for work. I can't seem to spend that much on something that sits around most of the time.
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 6:10:57 PM EST
out of curiousity, not to get off subject, but what countries, other than the US are considered OK?
china and vietnam are right out, obviously. how would ya'll feel about gear made in afghanistan or iraq? I have no direct knowledge of Iraqi made gear, but there's a small fab here, a luggage maker actually, that makes some very good kit. Quality plate carriers and chest rigs. the holsters- well they're ok- $10- gun show special quality.
midwinter
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 6:25:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By midwinter:
out of curiousity, not to get off subject, but what countries, other than the US are considered OK?
china and vietnam are right out, obviously. how would ya'll feel about gear made in afghanistan or iraq? I have no direct knowledge of Iraqi made gear, but there's a small fab here, a luggage maker actually, that makes some very good kit. Quality plate carriers and chest rigs. the holsters- well they're ok- $10- gun show special quality.
midwinter


I would love to see some of this local gear. Could you post some pics?
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 6:52:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By NightWatchman:

Originally Posted By midwinter:
out of curiousity, not to get off subject, but what countries, other than the US are considered OK?
china and vietnam are right out, obviously. how would ya'll feel about gear made in afghanistan or iraq? I have no direct knowledge of Iraqi made gear, but there's a small fab here, a luggage maker actually, that makes some very good kit. Quality plate carriers and chest rigs. the holsters- well they're ok- $10- gun show special quality.
midwinter


I would love to see some of this local gear. Could you post some pics?


+1
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 7:06:45 PM EST
Just bout every store sells stuff mainly from other countries, say like china mart.

Also, alot of US companies moved to other countries, so americans are out of jobs.

Even our own government isnt loyal to the american people, we are second class.

Save money and buy as much ammo as you can.


That being said, most of my gear is american made, but do own some CTD gear as well.

TG
Link Posted: 2/18/2007 8:40:29 PM EST
All I have to say is don't buy a Chinese tokarev and expect a glock. If you only use it once a year and don't have to worry about it failing when you need it, buy the copies. If you're buying it because you want gear that can be abused and not fall apart when you need it, buy quality. You get what you pay for, regardless of where it was made.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 4:50:53 AM EST

You get what you pay for, regardless of where it was made.

You need to take a close look at some of this foreign made gear. Some is crap, but some appears to be on par with what American manufacturers are putting out. (e.g. Phantom) The biggest difference to me is when warranty issues come up. I've been almost embarassed at what companies such as Eagle have done for me with respect to warranties.

We also need to look at the view that every sale of a knockoff item is not necessarily money taken from an American company. A full Phantom CIRAS rig (pouches, etc) can be had for $250, vs. $800 from Eagle. In many cases, had the Phantom not been available, the person probably would not have bought the Eagle gear.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 8:15:44 AM EST
Actually it's more like comparing an RRA to a Bushmaster AR... or an RIA to a Daly 1911 if you prefer the 3rd world comparison.

The fact is this stuff is made from the same material in probably the same room as the name brand stuff...

a better question to start a thread about would be why does all this shit cost so much?

I mean I could get get some space in NYC and get a bunch of old spanish ladies turning this stuff out 24/7 for pennies, so how do they get away w/ charging $800 for a CIRAS?

B/c that's what some people are willing to pay, that's how...

Link Posted: 2/19/2007 8:23:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101:
Actually it's more like comparing an RRA to a Bushmaster AR... or an RIA to a Daly 1911 if you prefer the 3rd world comparison.

The fact is this stuff is made from the same material in probably the same room as the name brand stuff...

a better question to start a thread about would be why does all this shit cost so much?

I mean I could get get some space in NYC and get a bunch of old spanish ladies turning this stuff out 24/7 for pennies, so how do they get away w/ charging $800 for a CIRAS?

B/c that's what some people are willing to pay, that's how...



You're right. The bottom line is this:

No matter how well designed, put together, constructed, and researched a rig is, it's still a piece of friggin' clothing.

Link Posted: 2/19/2007 8:39:56 AM EST
My First line Costs:


Granted some stuff is used buuuut

Eagle PC w/ Cumberbun - $160
Tactical Tailor mag pouches (4) - $45
EGL Hydration Pouch - $20
Emdom Admin - $30
Emdom 6o4 - $25
ESSTAC utility - $20
TAP Gamma III+ plates - $150

Total - $450 (not bad for including armor!)



My second line:

Battelab Molle Belt - $38
Battelab Suspenders - $16
6005 - $65
Emdom hanger - $16
Emdom 6o4 - $25
Tactical Tailor Mag shingles - $30
Med pouch - $25

Total - $215

My purpose of this is....some stuff you can find used and some stuff you have to buy new. Nothing is cheap in this hobby and in most instances you get what you pay for. I don't go out and buy all my gear at once. Kinda like mags just buy a few here or there and they start to add up.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 8:43:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 8:44:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101:
Actually it's more like comparing an RRA to a Bushmaster AR... or an RIA to a Daly 1911 if you prefer the 3rd world comparison.

The fact is this stuff is made from the same material in probably the same room as the name brand stuff...

a better question to start a thread about would be why does all this shit cost so much?

I mean I could get get some space in NYC and get a bunch of old spanish ladies turning this stuff out 24/7 for pennies, so how do they get away w/ charging $800 for a CIRAS?

B/c that's what some people are willing to pay, that's how...



Wrong, it's not the same. Take Kifaru for example. I just bought a new Pointman from them. They employ local people with a high skill level and pay a good salary to those people. If you can't see the difference between a company like that and a Chinese/Vietnamese sweat shop you have some serious issues.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 8:53:45 AM EST
Well then I guess I have issues, b/c I'm holding my new AIII clone next to all my other stuff and it looks good.

All I did was give a heads up on a company that was producing equipment at reasonable prices and with a very high standard of quality. Others here have thrown in behind that in saying that Phantom's CIRAS is equally legit. People trust their lives to it in fact (as has also been posted in my other thread).

I'm not the king of chinese goods here. Just posting a review of some new stuff I got- just like the CTD plate carriers.

I don't dispute that a lot of the stuff out there is not as good. All I'm saying is that I got good service and a quality product.

Link Posted: 2/19/2007 8:55:02 AM EST
I'd looked at suspendor online for my TT molle belt, like HSGI suspenders, almost $50, by the time you add shipping and handling.

Just recently made my own, for $5, looks good and works as attended.

TG

Link Posted: 2/19/2007 8:56:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2007 8:56:44 AM EST by Kalashnikev101]

Originally Posted By TexasGunman:
I'd looked at suspendor online for my TT molle belt, like HSGI suspenders, almost $50, by the time you add shipping and handling.

Just recently made my own, for $5, looks good and works as attended.

TG



I just had a bowl of pasta.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 8:59:38 AM EST

I just had a bowl of pasta.


Good for you, I have a tactical bib I'd sell yeah for $100.

Or a $2 china one.

TG
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:06:54 AM EST
I thought you were in China???

Isn't this thread about cheap Chinese crap?

How much for the suspenders?
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:10:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:18:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2007 9:23:02 AM EST by Headlice]
What about when American companies move production to China. They are required by law to put the "made in China" tag on it, but they are still an American company. Would you still buy from them?

People, manufacturing is moving out of our country. It is called globalization. American manufacturing companies are moving production overseas to bring the best prices possible.

This is the way our economy is going. We are becoming a "services" economy and are leaving behind the "manufacturing" economy. This is inevitable. This means that higher skills are required in the workforce than previous times. Gone are the days of graduating high school and getting a job in a factory and be able to support your 6 children while your wife stays home.

GONE!

Trust me, having a services economy is much better than a manufacturing economy. Gone also are the days of grueling 12 hour shifts in factories doing mundane, monotonous work (unless you have not developed any skills).

Also, if American companies want to compete, they need to find cheaper ways of manufacturing...ie MOVE TO CHINA! I am not saying neglect quality- you can still have quality if you do things right.

But Eagle and all of the other US manufacturers will probably lose out in the end if they do not control their prices........because someone will come out with the same quality gear at a cheaper price.

Competition is not just about quality, but it also includes prices. BEWARE!
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:34:09 AM EST
I have a SDS Conflict back pack, materials is made in the USA & assembled in another country.

The Conflict back pack is 2nd to none in quality.

Vest I use, is a Interceptor by point blank, dunno what country it was made in, pouches are from SDS.

First line belt, it made by TT, thigh holster from London Bridges.

TG
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:35:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101:
Well then I guess I have issues, b/c I'm holding my new AIII clone next to all my other stuff and it looks good.

All I did was give a heads up on a company that was producing equipment at reasonable prices and with a very high standard of quality. Others here have thrown in behind that in saying that Phantom's CIRAS is equally legit. People trust their lives to it in fact (as has also been posted in my other thread).

I'm not the king of chinese goods here. Just posting a review of some new stuff I got- just like the CTD plate carriers.

I don't dispute that a lot of the stuff out there is not as good. All I'm saying is that I got good service and a quality product.



You need to re-read my original post. I said this wasn't about the quality. It is about ethics, plain and simple. This wasn't a personal attack against you or you Phantom thread, either.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:37:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By BookHound:

*SNIP*

Last thing - China is a communist country. You cannot support the people without supporting the government.

Mark


Well said Mark!
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:38:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2007 9:40:06 AM EST by Kalashnikev101]

Originally Posted By Headlice:
What about when American companies move production to China. They are required by law to put the "made in China" tag on it, but they are still an American company. Would you still buy from them?

People, manufacturing is moving out of our country. It is called globalization. American manufacturing companies are moving production overseas to bring the best prices possible.

This is the way our economy is going. We are becoming a "services" economy and are leaving behind the "manufacturing" economy. This is inevitable. This means that higher skills are required in the workforce than previous times. Gone are the days of graduating high school and getting a job in a factory and be able to support your 6 children while your wife stays home.

GONE!

Trust me, having a services economy is much better than a manufacturing economy. Gone also are the days of grueling 12 hour shifts in factories doing mundane, monotonous work (unless you have not developed any skills).

Also, if American companies want to compete, they need to find cheaper ways of manufacturing...ie MOVE TO CHINA! I am not saying neglect quality- you can still have quality if you do things right.

But Eagle and all of the other US manufacturers will probably lose out in the end if they do not control their prices........because someone will come out with the same quality gear at a cheaper price.

Competition is not just about quality, but it also includes prices. BEWARE!


You just made the smartest post so far.

I find that the people in this country who are the most into "buying American" and fearful of China are those who work in blue collar fields losing out to the forces of the market.

These also happen to be the people who can least afford it!

As the poster stated way back in this thread, the Chinese have beat a lot of American companies by offering similar products at a more competitive price. That's capitalism. One person buying American isn't going to be able to fight that b/c it's just a drop in the bucket and the forces are too strong.

ETA: Yeah, I guess I do support China then. And their government.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:44:55 AM EST
Wow, just pathetic. I post a thread about supporting some American companies and you guys want to give a fucking economics lesson? I have already stated that I know why people are tempted to buy these goods, but simply asked that you consider the American counterparts and some of you still bitch and cry about "The CIRAS costs too much, why can't they just make it for$50?"

Forget it. I'll bet any that agree with me already buy from from American gear companies anyway. What a waste of time. Enjoy your commie shit.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:45:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:


You need to re-read my original post. I said this wasn't about the quality. It is about ethics, plain and simple. This wasn't a personal attack against you or you Phantom thread, either.


Sorry, but I'd suggest your "ethics" are a bit skewed. I'd classify it as your opinion. This doesn't have a damn thing to do with ethics.

It's business plain and simple.

You don't like buying products made in China? Don't buy it. It truly is no different then a person preferring not to buy foreign cars. Ethics has nothing to do with it, its a personal choice.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 9:56:55 AM EST


TG
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 10:08:54 AM EST


It's business plain and simple.


True that, homey.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 10:45:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Headlice:
What about when American companies move production to China. They are required by law to put the "made in China" tag on it, but they are still an American company. Would you still buy from them?

People, manufacturing is moving out of our country. It is called globalization. American manufacturing companies are moving production overseas to bring the best prices possible.

This is the way our economy is going. We are becoming a "services" economy and are leaving behind the "manufacturing" economy. This is inevitable. This means that higher skills are required in the workforce than previous times. Gone are the days of graduating high school and getting a job in a factory and be able to support your 6 children while your wife stays home.

GONE!

Trust me, having a services economy is much better than a manufacturing economy. Gone also are the days of grueling 12 hour shifts in factories doing mundane, monotonous work (unless you have not developed any skills).

Also, if American companies want to compete, they need to find cheaper ways of manufacturing...ie MOVE TO CHINA! I am not saying neglect quality- you can still have quality if you do things right.

But Eagle and all of the other US manufacturers will probably lose out in the end if they do not control their prices........because someone will come out with the same quality gear at a cheaper price.

Competition is not just about quality, but it also includes prices. BEWARE!


Should we source out all of our defense mfgring to a potential future enemy while we're at it?

After all, who doesn't want to export sensitive technology to a communist country? They wouldn't use it against us in the future...

Anyone who suggests that a mfgring economy is bad is selling something. Cheap Chinese gear perhaps?

And Mr Larue, I repsectfully request you stay outta this thread. I don't want to see you getting banned
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 10:46:46 AM EST
Yup, I don't get emotional about business.

I don't buy from someone just for any other reason than the fact that they produce a decent product at a decent price.

As a civilian my budget is limited and I have to leave money for things like:

1. Ammunition (isn't going to get any cheaper).

2. Instruction courses (a good carbine course can cost around $500.00)

3. Range Membership (most public ranges suck).

4. New firearms or firearm accessories.

5. SHTF supplies.

I mean I do like to spend my money on other things than firearms related stuff as well. So I can get what I want for $200.00 less than thats what I'm going to do and I don't care if it is from the moon.

Besides, the American companies will always get the LEO and MIlitary contracts so its not like a few civilians purchasing Chinese stuff is going to kill their business. If they want to change their prices to make it more "Civilian Friendly" than they've got a customer in me.

I purchase 90% of my gear from US companies so I"m not going to feel bad about purchasing a few things from China.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 11:12:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2007 11:13:34 AM EST by Kalashnikev101]


Should we source out all of our defense mfgring to a potential future enemy while we're at it?

After all, who doesn't want to export sensitive technology to a communist country? They wouldn't use it against us in the future...

Anyone who suggests that a mfgring economy is bad is selling something. Cheap Chinese gear perhaps?

And Mr Larue, I repsectfully request you stay outta this thread. I don't want to see you getting banned


This thread just gets WEIRDER AND WEIRDER, LOL!!!

Now we're talking about outsourcing all defense contracting to China? Or are you only talking about "sensitive rucksack technology?"

I plan on taking mine w/ me to Iraq, so maybe the problem is that all our issue gear is made by blind people and convicts?

ETA: Isn't just about the whole world a "potential enemy?"
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 11:24:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2007 11:25:55 AM EST by Headlice]

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:
Wow, just pathetic. I post a thread about supporting some American companies and you guys want to give a fucking economics lesson? I have already stated that I know why people are tempted to buy these goods, but simply asked that you consider the American counterparts and some of you still bitch and cry about "The CIRAS costs too much, why can't they just make it for$50?"

Forget it. I'll bet any that agree with me already buy from from American gear companies anyway. What a waste of time. Enjoy your commie shit.


All I am saying is that American companies are investing in China for a reason: they get the best bang for the buck AND can accomadate quality as well. I say CAN accomadate quality because usually the case goes like this: Oh, China=cheap labor. Why can't we skimp on materials too??? There goes your quality.

Look, I understand everyone wants to buy American. The fact is, American companies are exporting to other countries. So those companies you would not buy from? They are trying to stay in business and be able to compete.

What does buying American do? It just procrastinates the inevitable: the company will outsource unskilled labor or be put out of business. It is as simple as that.

It is an economic lesson, actually. Economics 101: You import those things which you cannot produce at maximum efficiency to divert those resources to produce those which you do at maximum efficiency.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 11:46:40 AM EST
Headlice, I titled this "Chinese" for a reason. They are a communist country, and our enemy. I did not title it "Import" for a reason.

Example: Camelbak makes their gear in the Philippines. Some companies manufacture their goods in Taiwan. These countries are our allies. China is not. It is not the same thing.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 11:52:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Blackwind:

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:


You need to re-read my original post. I said this wasn't about the quality. It is about ethics, plain and simple. This wasn't a personal attack against you or you Phantom thread, either.


Sorry, but I'd suggest your "ethics" are a bit skewed. I'd classify it as your opinion. This doesn't have a damn thing to do with ethics.

My ethics are skewed? I believe it is unethical to support the Chinese COMMUNIST government. That is skewed?

It's business plain and simple.

The problem with business today is the lack of ethics.

You don't like buying products made in China? Don't buy it. It truly is no different then a person preferring not to buy foreign cars. Ethics has nothing to do with it, its a personal choice.

It's not the same thing as buying a car made in countries that are our allies. And I make that personal choice because I believe it is UNETHICAL.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 12:02:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2007 12:04:09 PM EST by brassburn]
This thread is a trainwreck. There are some good points here, some bad points, and some outright stupid points. I'll leave it to the audience to decide which is which for themselves.

I won't retell my personal experience. A summary will do: Cheap gear (knockoff Blackhawk) + expensive rifle + expensive optic + expensive ammo + expensive airfare and accomodations + expensive training course=catastrophic and embarrassing incident early on followed by PITA gear/equipment problems the remaining 2 days. For the smartasses, let me point out that the disaster variable is the one that doesn't start with the word "expensive".

All told I was in $3500 on that class (rifle/optic/ammo being static costs) and then went and bought a $35 knockoff rig???

It's no surprise that there are Chinese outfits producing copies of other peoples work to save the consumer a few bucks. Obviously, it's a market to be filled, and the American companies that have to pay the kind of wages that allow an American to work and live can't compete with a government subsidized, 2 dollar a day workforce. (not to mention the ultimate costs realized by businesses such as taxes, unemployment, benefits etc.)

Why can't the Chinese companies produce their own designs? Maybe add some innovations or new features? Their miniscule labor and materials costs more than make up for any money spent on R&D. It's a moot point I guess, it's not in their interest to do so when the design work and T&E have already been done by others.

[/Rant off]

I don't judge anyone for buying this stuff. I merely suggest that a few extra dollars properly spent on some quality gear will be a good move in the long run.

Fire away, but please....for the love of God, no economics lectures ok? Me go college six years (history/biz admin), and own a couple of successful enterprises. I can justify anything I opine using the same principles and trends. It's just dumb in a gear thread. Even a US vs. China gear thread...



Link Posted: 2/19/2007 12:35:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 12:38:04 PM EST
Here's another scenario to think about. Crye Precision recently decided to liscense Multicam. They made a lawful agreement with allow TruSpec to print Multicam, and produce gear/clothing. TruSpec has decided to have that clothing sewn in Honduras. This is something that Crye Precision is fully aware of and made the decision to do business with TruSpec.

That is entirely different than what all the Chinse companies did. They actually printed their own copy of Crye's pattern without giving one dime to the company that invested so much of their time and money into designing Multicam. They stole Crye's work.

IMO, what TruSpec did was not unethical. What the Chinese companies did was absolutely unethical. There is a difference.
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 1:07:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2007 1:08:51 PM EST by DeltaII5]
If the country is flooded with copies, then companys should start realizing people simply will not pay their prices.

There are several companies that have had products out for years, making only minor changes. These companies have left their product prices high. But they also have government contracts, if they didn't have the gov't contracts and were solely relying on civilian purchasers I believe they would have to drop their prices to compete.

(To understand this, Look at YHM compared to other companies)




BiggerStick


So we should support companies that only outsource their labor to commy countries? As long as they come up with their own designs?


Link Posted: 2/19/2007 1:16:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By DeltaII5:




BiggerStick


So we should support companies that only outsource their labor to commy countries? As long as they come up with their own designs?




I think we should try to avoid companies that manufacture in communist countries all together. I also think we should try to avoid American companies that obviously steal designs from others (I fully realize this would be almost impossible to sort out).
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