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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/5/2005 2:14:04 PM EDT
What kinds of carbines are out there in pistol calibers. Whats a good SHTF PDW weapon for a noncombat member of your party.

CX4 Storm seems ideal but its pretty expensive

I really like the idea behind the Keltech Sub-2000 but that thing is so damn ugly! I don't really need the folding feature. Are there any after market accessories for the Keltech? Replacment stocks, forends, mounts, etc etc???

I'd at least be able to mount a cheap red dot. Emergency training would be easy, "put the dot on the target and fire, reload and repeat" I don't really like the fact that the rear sight on the Keltech folds with the weapon, seems flimsy.

Being able to use pistol mags is a big plus, allows standardization with other arms.

My ideal weapon would be something like the Keltech but had a HK style retracting stock, a rail on top, fixed sight and a flash hider, or the ability to mount a flash hider easily.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 3:02:36 PM EDT
whatever you do, dont get the hipoint carbine. it is fairly reliable, decently accurate, but it is downright painful to shoot, and ITS ONLY A 9MM!
nobody really knows why it hurts, but it feels like someone is slapping you in the shoulder with a willow switch when you shoot it. I own one, and I've put a couple hundred rounds through it, I wish it was more comfortable to shoot because it really wouldnt be THAT bad of a carbine.

honestly I'd give the others SKS rifles, cheap, reliable, simple, and hit hard enough.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 4:37:05 PM EDT
The PC-9 from Ruger is one that might deserve your consideration. It uses P-series mags and can mount a red dot (or other) sight on top of a one-piece mount available through a few different outlets. There's also a .40 cal version, but I have no experience with it.
As a bonus, the instruction manual says that it's compatible with +p and +P+ ammo. Sweet.

The downside is that aftermarket support is practically nil and the trigger is not great... just in the interest of full disclosure.
-Hobbit
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:37:25 PM EDT
Another to avoid is the Marlin Camp 9. it takes S&W 59 mags, including the high caps from CTD.
On paper it looks good, in practice less so. A: its a blow back action and while that ain't all bad, to do it so close to your face may be. Second: its dirty as hell. I think the bolt comes back a tad too soon and blows shit all over inside. C: the stock screws will not stay tight. I don't want to put Locktite on 'em 'cuz then i can't take it apart to clean.

On the plus side i know where you could get one cheap
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:56:14 PM EDT
Marlin Camp Carbine 45 has problems as well. It is quite fun, but unreliable.

I was in the same boat as you looking for a 9mm carbine. Didn't quite like the look/feel of Ruger. The KelTec was just wrong--seemed too gimmicky. I finally decided I will get an AR-15 9mm when the time comes.

There is always a 357 lever action.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:29:51 PM EDT
Here is the AboutGuns.net review of pistol-caliber carbines. Hopefully it will be of some assistance.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:09:27 AM EDT
No love for the KelTec Sub 2000?

I have put >1000 rounds through mine
and it has been a blast. Accurate as I
am @ 50 yds. It is "ugly", but it is
very functional and more inexpensive
than its rivals.

Plus, you gotta love 33rd mags!
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:09:23 PM EDT
USGI M1 carbine. Light, easy to shoot and handles great it is a great little gun that was made specifically for the purpose you want. To arm non combat troops with something more than a pistol. And yes, many experts/tech writings do refer to the .30 carbine round as a pistol caliber round.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 7:28:08 PM EDT
GaryM, I must humbly, respectfully, disagree.

A "pistol" caliber, in my mind (which may be confused at this time of night), is a caliber that was born and grew up as a round to be used in pistols.
9, yup,
45, yup,
327, 44, 45 colt, 44/40, 32, etc,
30 carbine, this lowly person thinks, was developed as a rifle round, albeit a rifle round commonly accepted as the bastard step-child of a pistol round.
I'm sorry to say I don't know anyone, anyone who shoots a .30 carbine pistol.
Once again, i hate to disagree but disagree i must.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:52:35 PM EDT
The other idea about a pistol caliber carbine is carrying one type of ammo, and two since these are the noncombatants in your party, they are probably have no training. Giving them two weapons, side arm and carbine that share ammo, or better share mags makes it much easier on them. Another consideration is weight of the firearm and recoil.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 6:43:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 6:44:50 AM EDT by GaryM]

Originally Posted By RogerBall:
GaryM, I must humbly, respectfully, disagree.

A "pistol" caliber, in my mind (which may be confused at this time of night), is a caliber that was born and grew up as a round to be used in pistols.
9, yup,
45, yup,
327, 44, 45 colt, 44/40, 32, etc,
30 carbine, this lowly person thinks, was developed as a rifle round, albeit a rifle round commonly accepted as the bastard step-child of a pistol round.
I'm sorry to say I don't know anyone, anyone who shoots a .30 carbine pistol.
Once again, i hate to disagree but disagree i must.


I understand and in some ways I do agree with you. Even among the experts this cartridge is a matter of controversy. Just as a bit of trivia the .30 carbine did evolve from the 32-20 cartridge, a low powered rifle round that has very little practical application. Another lil' bit of trivia, there are more than a few pistols chambered in the caliber now, Taurus makes a revolver, AMT made a semi auto (1911 type) and there are more I can't recall off the top of my head.
I also wish to thank you for the courteousness of your reply, it is nice to see someone disagree without the far-too-often arfcom name calling and derisive remarks.
Respectfully,
Gary
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 8:45:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 9:07:15 AM EDT by RogerBall]
I learned something new today.
I did not know of the 32-20 roots. Hmmm, go figure.

ETA wait a minute, 32-20? that's a rifle round right?
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:04:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 10:10:43 AM EDT by Hector_X]
We can debate if the .30 Carbine is a pistol or rifle caliber all day but LonePathfinder asked for "cheap". With shooter grade carbines running $500+, that criteria alone disqualifies the .30 Carbine from discussion.
I agree with TheRedHorseman on the SKS. If a rifle is too much, stock up on police-trade in revolvers or Glocks (all the same model + caliber). The purpose of it in a non-shooters hand is to make noise until the cavalry comes.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:16:06 PM EDT
Yea my main goal with a pistol caliber carbine was they generally are lighter than a "real" carbine. The particular role I have in mine was for novice shooters or PDW for people like small women, older folks who could easily handle 5.56 recoil but keeping the weapon shouldered for any length of time was hard.

My mother can't shoot a long arm uness its from a rest or bipod. So I figured something very light would do the trick, and long arms with a red dot are easy to teach. So things like the Ruger or Marlin "carbines" are still probably to heavy.

In reality a P90 or other SMG would be great but way to expensive.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:24:52 PM EDT
Don't be dissin' the Sub.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:36:23 PM EDT
Why not a 16" AR with a pencil barrel and collapsible stock? Adjustable LOP, low recoil, lots of mags available, and should weigh in at around 5 1/2lbs unloaded, which is right there with most pistol cal. carbines. Plus, you get a rifle caliber to boot.

If not, just get them a Glock 17. 17 rounds of 9mm in a relatively light package.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 2:24:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ghost-Shooter:
Why not a 16" AR with a pencil barrel and collapsible stock? Adjustable LOP, low recoil, lots of mags available, and should weigh in at around 5 1/2lbs unloaded, which is right there with most pistol cal. carbines. Plus, you get a rifle caliber to boot.



Good idea.

That said, the Storm is the shiznit and well worth $500....which is what most decent pistols cost come to think of it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:49:05 AM EDT
I think the Uzi is a great choice. Vector has them for 600 with A+ service and quality.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:44:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 8:46:25 PM EDT by Srigs]
I have very good results with my HiPoint 4095 (40S&W). I have put over 1000 rounds through it without one problem at all, easy to shoot, accurate (2 inch groups at 50 yards), good iron sights, lite recoil and you can get good accessories for it. Lifetime warrenty for anyone who owns it! hing
I'll be buying a 995 (9 mm) for my wife to shoot as a HD/SHTF gun. This goes along with her 9 mm handgun as a single source of ammo. I use my 4095 and a 40 S&W handgun for the same reason. One thing more they are inexpensive to buy. $150 for the 9mm and $200 for the 40 maximum so you can buy a lot of ammo for the price difference.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:52:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 7:09:41 PM EDT by SmegHead]
Olympic Arms makes a 9mm and a .40 S&W 16" AR which accept GLOCK mags. They are the K9GL and the K40GL. According to their website, "The lowers accept full size or larger glock mags, including the high-cap 30 round mags."

But it's not "cheap."
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 7:26:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 8:38:46 PM EDT by weptek911]
I have a Ruger .40 carbine with ghost ring sights and like it alot. Very reliable, shoots great even with spongy trigger pull. The controls are just like a 10/22 . Forget about the Ruger .44 mag carbine. Big ROAR and fireball when you shoot that one. A 5 round mag makes it less that ideal. That said you CAN top it off like a shotgun but the report would scare a non-combatant type.

I also have the Marlin Camp 9, I have shot it alot with the Winchester lead free clean fire, and have had NO reliability issues. I have 4 TripleK 30 round magazines and they work great. I bought it because it would cycle the plastic 9mm ammo, but that stuff always fragmented out of the barrel and was crap. It also takes the 12 shot S&W 6906 mags or bigger. I would not use it as a front line weapon, but I wouldn't feel unarmed while carrying a properly maintained one. This weapon a simple transition for someone used to shooting a Marlin .22

The CX4 storm is probably ideal as it takes the +P ammo and I've seen them used for around $500. Mount a liitle bright flashlight on it and red dot scope you are set. The integrated rails are a real plus on these.

A friend of mine swears by his Highpoint but I can't get past the Gangster Gat image on those. Given a choice, I would carry a 10/22 with a pocket full of 10 round factory mags.

I don't think you could go wrong with the M1 carbine either. Great gun. A classic.

I always use the Winchester clean fire stuff. It has a hell of a bark and a little bit of a kick but cleaning and maintenence is a snap.

The pistol caliber AR-15s are great but you can buy TWO Ruger PC9 or PC4 for the cost of one of them.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:24:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hobbit:
The PC-9 from Ruger is one that might deserve your consideration. It uses P-series mags and can mount a red dot (or other) sight on top of a one-piece mount available through a few different outlets. There's also a .40 cal version, but I have no experience with it.
As a bonus, the instruction manual says that it's compatible with +p and +P+ ammo. Sweet.

The downside is that aftermarket support is practically nil and the trigger is not great... just in the interest of full disclosure.
-Hobbit

Another point in the Ruger's favor is that cheap USA magazines work perfectly in it (possibly the only firearm they DO work the way they are supposed to); even the 30-rder, though it sticks out so far it almost looks like a monopod.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:19:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 12:30:15 AM EDT by Atreides]
Pathfinder,

Like you said, the Beretta Storm is "ideal" for the purpose you want to put it to work for. But...$500 or so is a little high. I agree with you about the Kel-Tec. No disrespect for Kel-Tec owners but the gun is ugly. REAL ugly. Now the Hi-Point carbines aren't that much ahead of the Kel-Tec's in looks, but they are SOLID guns, and CHEAP. All without the weird folding feature. With the hi-Point you do get alot for the money. I had a 9MM that I eventually sold to one of my delivery boys but not because the gun failed in in any way. I sold it because I knew it would serve as a good "1st rifle" for the kid. It does tend to sting your cheek when you shoot it though, but I just stuck one of them foam cheek pads on it and it was fine.

You can't go wrong with the Hi-points fopr the price. It's a long jump to the next price range of pistol caliber rifles.

As an alternate, have you considered a Ruger 10/22? I know a .22LR wasn't exactly what you meant by "pistol caliber" but consider this:

The Ruger 10/22 is very user friendly. It's easy to use, even by people with not a lot of experience, though I highly recommend that your family be trained in safe-gun handling BEFORE having to use a weapon in an emergency. The first time a person handles a gun should not be when it matters the most.

The 10/22 can now have a high capacity magazine fitted since the AWB sunset. 30 even 50 round magazines are available for the 10/22.

There are a TON of after market accessories for the 10/22 including: Stocks (replacement, bullpup, target, etc.) barrels, mounts, slings, optics, rails, charging handles, all sorts of tactical stuff.

While the .22LR is no man stopper, the 10/22 offers alot of stuff a pistol carbine doesn't:

With it's high capacity capability, the 10/22 can offer excellent cover fire if the need should arise.

It can be made into a light compact package that is easily handled by any one.

The high capacity offers it's shooter the luxury of not having to make every round count: No one expects a non combatant to be a crack shot. The tendancy to waste shots during a high stress situation is especially high with someone who isn't prepared for conflict or hasn't handled a gun much. Therefore, the more rounds you have, the more useful the weapon. (In this case) I don't see the need for high capacity in the hands of novices within a household for instance, but for SHTF it makes good sense.

You can get in a TON of practice time at a fraction of what it would cost with a 9MM or .40

Low recoil, low muzzle flash, and low noise factor make it an ideal noncombatant PDW.

While there are alot of reasons why a .22LR carbine would not make an ideal rifle for battle (OBVIOUSLY) the 10/22 does offer a great deal for a low price.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:47:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Atreides:
Pathfinder,

While there are alot of reasons why a .22LR carbine would not make an ideal rifle for battle (OBVIOUSLY) the 10/22 does offer a great deal for a low price.




Excellent post Atreides. I didn't quote the whole article, but it makes a lot of sense.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:14:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By weptek911:

Originally Posted By Atreides:
Pathfinder,

While there are alot of reasons why a .22LR carbine would not make an ideal rifle for battle (OBVIOUSLY) the 10/22 does offer a great deal for a low price.




Excellent post Atreides. I didn't quote the whole article, but it makes a lot of sense.




Well Thanks weptek, I appreciate your comment. I expected to be flamed for recommending a .22 for this post, but the question did have to do with NON-Combatants so a high capacity .22lr like the 10/22 made sense. A thousand rounds of .22lr doesn't weigh much either and can easily be packed with the users. I don't recommend the 10/22 as a front line weapon, just a PDW and maybe for cover-fire in a fire fight. Even if it's only a .22 round I certainly wouldn't want to be shot in the head with it.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:18:51 PM EDT
Vector Uzi Carbines are only $600. Not bad at all, easily half of what a old-skool one goes for and of just excellent quality. Check out Uzitalk to learn more.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:19:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 9:06:30 PM EDT by weptek911]

Originally Posted By Atreides:

don't recommend the 10/22 as a front line weapon, just a PDW and maybe for cover-fire in a fire fight. Even if it's only a .22 round I certainly wouldn't want to be shot in the head with it.



The first homicide I ever went to as an LEO was a guy shot dead with one round of .22 long rifle. One shot to the chest was all it took. Hit him right in the heart. It made a believer out of me, but like you, a .22 would not be my first choice.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:24:37 AM EDT
tag for info.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:29:55 PM EDT
Winchester 94 trapper in 44 Mag. The trajectory and energy is pretty reasonable, about the same as a 30/30 - better than other pistol rounds. Mine is very accurate. 9 round magazine. $300 new.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:35:04 PM EDT
tagola!
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:47:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 1:03:05 PM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
... I really like the idea behind the Keltech Sub-2000 but that thing is so damn ugly! I don't really need the folding feature. Are there any after market accessories for the Keltech? Replacment stocks, forends, mounts, etc etc???...



Yes... www.kel-tec.com/new_page_5.htm








I am one of the biggest fans of pistol-caliber carbines you'll find here. I've owned just about all of them made (the good, the bad, and - yes - the ugly ) and still own samples of most. I love my 9mm AR and my Storm, but the Kel-Tecs are IMHO an excellent value for the money. And because they fold small and deploy quickly, they make excellent vehicle-based long-guns (especially in a small vehicle where space is limited).

We have two Kel-Tec carbines, the older/better/more-expensive SUB-9 (hers - uses S&W mags) and the current-production SUB-2000 (mine - uses Glock mags). Both have seen lots of use and neither has given us any problems whatsoever.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:21:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CarbineMonoxide:
Marlin Camp Carbine 45 has problems as well. It is quite fun, but unreliable.

I was in the same boat as you looking for a 9mm carbine. Didn't quite like the look/feel of Ruger. The KelTec was just wrong--seemed too gimmicky. I finally decided I will get an AR-15 9mm when the time comes.

There is always a 357 lever action.



I have a Camp carbine in 45 and have a friend who has one as well and we have shot 1000's of rounds through these and mine and his have been nothing but 100% completely reliable. I would not hesitate at all using mine to defend my life with. I have put all types of factory ammo and reloads(mine) through this rifle, and it has fed hollow points to ball ammo without a hitch. You have to be careful when taking apart to clean that you get the feed ramp aligned when putting back together or it will cause you problems. My .02 worth
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:23:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
Winchester 94 trapper in 44 Mag. The trajectory and energy is pretty reasonable, about the same as a 30/30 - better than other pistol rounds. Mine is very accurate. 9 round magazine. $300 new.



Not a bad way to go, either...



Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:52:41 PM EDT
I have a Marlin Camp 9 and it works just fine. Hasn't jammed or FTF'd yet.



If someone would make an aftermarket trigger housing that took Sten mags it would really be cool !
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:22:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
Winchester 94 trapper in 44 Mag. The trajectory and energy is pretty reasonable, about the same as a 30/30 - better than other pistol rounds. Mine is very accurate. 9 round magazine. $300 new.



Not a bad way to go, either...

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/HardShell/RWB%20-%20Rifles/Tactical94-smaller.jpg




HardShell,
If that's yours, where did you get, and what is the scope/ mount setup you have?

jim
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:00:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 5:08:47 PM EDT by timb3]
I've got both a Ruger PC-9 and a Kel-Tec Sub 2000, and like both of them. I haven't had any reliability problems out of either of them. Well, I take that back. Occationally with certain mags, the Ruger bolt hold open device will start riding up prematurely and lock the bolt open with one round left in the mag. No problems other than that though. I wouldn't have believed it before shooting them back to back, but, my Kel-Tec is more accurate than the Ruger. I have shot lots of 2 to 3" groups at 100 yards with the Sub 2000 with no effort, where my results with the Ruger are usually more like 4 inches or so. Both are fun and I have managed to use the same magazines with both with a minor modification. The Ruger uses P Series pistol mags and the Kel-Tec uses Beretta mags, so I just took some of the cheap aftermarket Ruger mags (which have a square mag catch on the front) and cut a slot on the right side for the Beretta mag catch. Works like a charm.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:14:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NexQuietus:

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
Winchester 94 trapper in 44 Mag. The trajectory and energy is pretty reasonable, about the same as a 30/30 - better than other pistol rounds. Mine is very accurate. 9 round magazine. $300 new.



Not a bad way to go, either...

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/HardShell/RWB%20-%20Rifles/Tactical94-smaller.jpg




HardShell,
If that's yours, where did you get, and what is the scope/ mount setup you have?

jim



The rifle is a basic .44 Trapper that I bought used and restocked with a lightweight, synthetic Ram-Line 2-piece unit. It's got a UER pistol-scope in see-thru rings on an AO Express Scout mount (www.gunaccessories.com/AOSights/LeverScopeMounts.asp). I used the see-thru rings so I could still take advantage of the excellent peep-sight set-up it already had when I bought it. Strangely enough, I use the pistol scope for rapid engagement close up (it works very well) and the peep-sight at greater distances. I know it sounds funny, but it works.

I put it all together on a whim a few years ago - I call it my "tactical cowboy gun." If I didn't already keep ARs in my vehicles, it would be a great little truck gun...
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:54:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Atreides:

The Ruger 10/22 is very user friendly. It's easy to use, even by people with not a lot of experience, though I highly recommend that your family be trained in safe-gun handling BEFORE having to use a weapon in an emergency. The first time a person handles a gun should not be when it matters the most.



With it's high capacity capability, the 10/22 can offer excellent cover fire if the need should arise.

It can be made into a light compact package that is easily handled by any one.

The high capacity offers it's shooter the luxury of not having to make every round count: No one expects a non combatant to be a crack shot. The tendancy to waste shots during a high stress situation is especially high with someone who isn't prepared for conflict or hasn't handled a gun much. Therefore, the more rounds you have, the more useful the weapon. (In this case) I don't see the need for high capacity in the hands of novices within a household for instance, but for SHTF it makes good sense.

You can get in a TON of practice time at a fraction of what it would cost with a 9MM or .40

Low recoil, low muzzle flash, and low noise factor make it an ideal noncombatant PDW.

While there are alot of reasons why a .22LR carbine would not make an ideal rifle for battle (OBVIOUSLY) the 10/22 does offer a great deal for a low price.



i like the concept of using a .22 for covering fire! AS long as i'm not advancing under their fire i'd rather give the person with the least experience the job of keeping the bad guys head down while the person who CAN shoot advances and deals with the threat.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 2:19:06 AM EDT
Found a KEL-TEC sub9 all metal receiver. Brand new for $360.00. Should I get it. Takes Glock 17 mags all day.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 2:25:51 AM EDT
It is a pistol caliber but it's not cheap.



Oly .45 upper $385-500 in the EE
Cav lower $160 ( SEBR)
Heavy buffer $80ish
Mag block $80 ish
Mags $10-20each.

Total cost between $700-900ish.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:43:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 4:44:47 AM EDT by jollyroger]
Has anyone mentioned the Ruger Deerfield carbine? It looks alot like their 10/22, only it shoots a .44 mag. Holds 4 rounds in the mag I think, which isnt much but it looks like a good carbine. Suggested retail is high but my guess is that you could find one used or on the web for cheaper.

www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=6301&return=Y
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:01:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:16:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dcobra23:
Found a KEL-TEC sub9 all metal receiver. Brand new for $360.00. Should I get it. Takes Glock 17 mags all day.




The FFL Dealer/wholesale cost on my wife's was $439.50 shipped several years back, if that helps any.

Even though I haven't had any problems/complaints with my SUB-2000, I consider her SUB-9 superior in many ways.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 6:13:49 AM EDT
NOT cheap...




But definitely worth it. It cost about $1k to build but its a ton of fun. Double, even triple taps are easy with it, and its still failry accurate out to about 100yds.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:07:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jollyroger:
Has anyone mentioned the Ruger Deerfield carbine? It looks alot like their 10/22, only it shoots a .44 mag. Holds 4 rounds in the mag I think, which isnt much but it looks like a good carbine. Suggested retail is high but my guess is that you could find one used or on the web for cheaper.

www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=6301&return=Y



I'd want one of them suckers for myself! LOL! But if given the choice between it and a 10/22, for survival reasons the .22LR would get my vote. (for all the reasons I've said but mainly for it's potential high capacity.) It's just more versitile.
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