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Posted: 8/19/2005 8:38:12 PM EDT
Okay, there has been a lot of smoke blown on the subject of the combat suitability of the .30 Carbine round.

Who has the REAL FACTS about this round? I have heard it referred to as a "souped up" pistol round...well, HOW MUCH more soupy is it? How does it compare in wounding potential to the 9mm? The .45?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:44:24 PM EDT
110 grain bullet at 1900+ fps. Problem is most of it is FMJ. If one could reliably feed a good HP design it would be a kick butt home defense gun. If a .357 willfrag at 14 to 1450 fps [125 gr JHP] and still be at the top of the hill basically a carbine running 500fps faster with a good bullet design should be excellent also. Problem is in the feeding of HP ammo reliably.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 3:56:30 PM EDT
Seems like I saw some soft point made in .30 Carbine, somewhere? I would think that would solve the feeding & performance concerns versus the FMJ & JHP?

All things aside, a M4 in .223 wouldn't weigh much over a carbine nor be any bigger with a collasped stock, IMO. Given that option, I see no reason to use the Carbine for defense use.

My .o2
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 4:19:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 4:20:25 PM EDT by thedoctors308]
I own a .30 carbine Inland M1.
I have wondered the same things you did, so I asked the man who used one, my grandad.
He was part of a MG team in Korea.
He said the carbine was good for what it was intended to be - better than a pistol.
Said you wanted to hit the guys at about 50-75 yards, they seemed to drop pretty well at that range.
At about 40 or so, he said, the bullets wouldn't have much of an effect on the Chinese.
Research others have done corraborates his story.
The .30 Carbine needs to get up to speed to do its damage.
If you shoot at a target too close, the guy is just getting .30 inch holes punched in him - icepicking.

So while the .30 carbine ain't a pussycat, I'd choose something that relies on mass, not velocity, to do its work, for a home defense rifle.

YMMV

ETA: Federal makes the softpoints you refer to.
Feeding is pretty good with a broke in GI 15 rounder.
Winchester made the hollowpoints - shit as far as feeding goes.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 4:36:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 4:37:37 PM EDT by Rocklock]
Funny you should ask . I own an AMT AUTO MAG. III .30 carbine . In the pistol world It a friggin cannon . With the Handloads I was shootin Speers 3/4 jacketed hps .
This thing was zipping thru a van like ....well thru and thru even when hitting a minor structural member . Same same w/ Speers 100gr "plinker" 1/2 jacket round nose lead ....zip no problem .

The many varrieties of 9mm I had with me that day were pitifull most would not punch thru to the passenger compartment from a close range door hit at close range . The pistol was a Keltec K-11 so there was a short barrel involed .

So i'm thinking "lots of folks" complian about over penetration w/ the 9mm .

Then you here stories of .30 Carbines not penetrating the thick ChiCom clothes in Korea , BUT then how a .357 was great ! I didnt have my . 357 w/ me that day , but I've already done that sort of stuff w/ them ..... I'll rerun the experiment this week with some .357 Handloads . But from what I remember I't would be lucky to duplicate what that AMT was doing .

Hard target penetration and soft target penetration are TWO differant things . But if you were to hide behind a full sized van the AMT WILL punch thru ...thru and thru! So I can only think the M-1 Carbine would do even better (espesially w/ 110 FMJ's) .

I've always thought the Carbine was underrated ....WAY . And in my mind theres no doubt about it being a pistol cart. IT ISNT , it was designed for a particuler reason which was a small rifle . Many folks including Uncle Sam like to call it a "Carbine" but it isn't , it's very small center fire rifle cartridge . It may look like a pistol cartridge , BUT no pistols were designed for it untill the Ruger .

I think that the Carbine .30 US was and is an excellent Rifle "within its limitations" . I believe most "stories of lack of penetration on "thick clothing" might not be the "actual" lack of , but the lack of "effective penetration" and maybe a .357 does have more left over after the penetrating .

After soldiers had seen the 30-06 in action nothing really compared to it so confidence might have suffered B4 the troopee even shot the thing .

The comercial 110 sp load will go completly thru a white tail at 70 yds , the exit hole being @ the size of a quarter .

just my observations thru shooting RL
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 9:25:14 PM EDT
Interesting!
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 9:34:26 PM EDT
Old_Painless did a "Box O Truth" segment on the .30 carbine But I dont have the link
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 10:01:07 PM EDT

Well, I'm going to make your day

Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR): vel=1864 f/s, pen=16.5”, rd=0.54”, rw=95.9gr.

Remington

Topic: .30 Carbine for Patrol Rifle

Link Posted: 8/20/2005 10:15:57 PM EDT
both has good info on .30 carbine

The Box O' Truth #8 - The Rags O' Truth
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 11:48:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 11:48:57 AM EDT by chewbacca]
The Remington 110 gr jacketed-soft-point (JSP) is an outstanding round. Its terminal effects surpass those of the 7.62X39. There have been gelatin pics on this site, pretty impressive.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:17:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
Well, I'm going to make your day

Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR): vel=1864 f/s, pen=16.5”, rd=0.54”, rw=95.9gr.

Topic: .30 Carbine for Patrol Rifle





The Tactical Forums terminal efects area is full of good info. Just do a search there for .30 Carbine.
Not a bad round for 100 yards and in.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:19:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I own a .30 carbine Inland M1.
I have wondered the same things you did, so I asked the man who used one, my grandad.
He was part of a MG team in Korea.
He said the carbine was good for what it was intended to be - better than a pistol.
Said you wanted to hit the guys at about 50-75 yards, they seemed to drop pretty well at that range.
At about 40 or so, he said, the bullets wouldn't have much of an effect on the Chinese.
Research others have done corraborates his story.
The .30 Carbine needs to get up to speed to do its damage.
If you shoot at a target too close, the guy is just getting .30 inch holes punched in him - icepicking.

So while the .30 carbine ain't a pussycat, I'd choose something that relies on mass, not velocity, to do its work, for a home defense rifle.

YMMV

ETA: Federal makes the softpoints you refer to.
Feeding is pretty good with a broke in GI 15 rounder.
Winchester made the hollowpoints - shit as far as feeding goes.



whaaaaa?
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:14:43 PM EDT
PMC makes softpoint ammo to. sportsmansguide carries it
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:33:17 PM EDT
My Grandpa fought in WW2 and said that during a fight, if the Germans heard a Carbine going off, they wouldn't even duck.

The same wasn't true about the M1 or '03.

I'm not a fan of the M1 Carbine, personally. I've fired a box of commercial Wichester stuff (110gr FMJ's) and was less than impressed. I found a box of surplus ammo at a gunshow that I ran through my dad's Carbine that had a considerable thump to them (compared to the Winchesters) but I still think it would be a weak round on the 2 way range. I know my Grandpa sure had a distaste for them and he came out of the war with a Bronze Star and a Silver Star, so I hold his word a little higher than what I read on the internet

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:19:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 4:20:19 PM EDT by QuinlanV]
I would rather have an M1 Garand myself, but would also rather have a carbine than a handgun.
It is probable that the 5.56 would have been met with the same distaste in that era as the .30 carbine was.

Today my first choice would be an M14, but the .30 Carbine is not a bad weapon if you understand its limitations.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:30:51 PM EDT
Dr. Gary Roberts has stated that the .30 Carbine is comparable to the 55gr 5.56 at close ranges. This is when the 110gr JHP is used.

As tot he stories from Korea about lacking stopping power, I have long suspected that the powder they used did not burn as well in the low temperatures as in warmer climes, resulting in reduced velocity--turning it into a really long .30 Mauser, essentially. As to empirical evidence on this, I have none to give. YMMV.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:32:58 PM EDT
AMT AUTO MAG. III .30 carbine - is on my wish list...
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:44:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 4:45:54 PM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By Knight_Shadow:
both has good info on .30 carbine

The Box O' Truth #8 - The Rags O' Truth
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm



+1, those links are worth a thousand arm-chair commando theories words.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:44:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Said you wanted to hit the guys at about 50-75 yards, they seemed to drop pretty well at that range.
At about 40 or so, he said, the bullets wouldn't have much of an effect on the Chinese.
Research others have done corraborates his story.
The .30 Carbine needs to get up to speed to do its damage.
If you shoot at a target too close, the guy is just getting .30 inch holes punched in him - icepicking.



Um, a bullet does not speed up over distance. It begins to slow down as soon as it leaves the barrel. There is nothing excerting energy or pressue on the round once it leaves the barrel.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:45:06 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 5:48:18 PM EDT
To me the Box 'O Truth tests confirm the reports of .30 carbine being stopped by Chicom clothing being BS! Not even close!



Now, to stir up the pot a bit...how does the .30 carbine compare to the .45?

Obviously, range with the .30 would be a no-brainer; even if we are talking a carbine being a 3-5 MOA gun, the fact that it is a rifle as opposed to a pistol means that you will be able to get hits WAY past what a Gov't .45 would be capable of...

But, if we were comparing it to a Sub-Machine Gun, would the lethality factor favor one round or the other? And even against an SMG the Carbine would have a range/accuracy superiority.

With those factors in mind, how do you think the .30 carbine cartridge would compare to the .45 at:

0 - 15 meters (pistol range)?

15 - 100 m (SMG range)?
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:08:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ProfGAB101:
AMT AUTO MAG. III .30 carbine - is on my wish list...




They are fun

Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:52:09 PM EDT
How's that thing kick?
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 7:08:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 7:25:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
How's that thing kick?



Loud bang, huge flash, almost no recoil. A silly, silly handgun, but as I mentioned... fun as hell.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 8:17:00 PM EDT
And to add to the controversy, I would rather have my M/2 in hand than ANY ,ANY , submachinegun! More range, accuracy in general, and one helluva lot more penetration...Not to mention it handles quicker and smoother than any of the latter.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:03:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuinlanV:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
How's that thing kick?



Loud bang, huge flash, almost no recoil. A silly, silly handgun, but as I mentioned... fun as hell.



Silly handgun Grips are too big , a hell of a bang . More tourque than kick . BUT they are "Primer sensetive" Winchester Commercial is OK . I use small pistol primers in reloading . Its a hoot it's only real use would as a Zombie slayer , if the 12 gauge doesnt stop them .
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:53:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rocklock:

Originally Posted By QuinlanV:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
How's that thing kick?



Loud bang, huge flash, almost no recoil. A silly, silly handgun, but as I mentioned... fun as hell.



Silly handgun Grips are too big , a hell of a bang . More tourque than kick . BUT they are "Primer sensetive" Winchester Commercial is OK . I use small pistol primers in reloading . Its a hoot it's only real use would as a Zombie slayer , if the 12 gauge doesnt stop them .


I had one but the damn thing would start jambing up when it got warm. Mostly stove pipes and FTE. When it was cold it was a hoot though. I ended up selling it and made a few bucks.
Some day I'm going to get a Ruger or Taurus because I still have .30 ammo.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:42:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QuinlanV:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
How's that thing kick?



Loud bang, huge flash, almost no recoil. A silly, silly handgun, but as I mentioned... fun as hell.



Aren't you describing the FN FiveseveN 5.7mm pistol?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:10:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dogrunner:
And to add to the controversy, I would rather have my M/2 in hand than ANY ,ANY , submachinegun! More range, accuracy in general, and one helluva lot more penetration...Not to mention it handles quicker and smoother than any of the latter.




dogrunner has a point. In full-auto form the M2 may not have the evil looks of a Sub-gun, but has everything else going for it. In civilian form all these sub-guns end up being is overdressed pistols. In the case of the M2, it's civilian version the M1 is STILL a very competent weapon.
More range, more ACCURACY, and in most cases just as smooth as a pistol caliber subbie: Full-auto or not.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:32:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Atreides:

Originally Posted By dogrunner:
And to add to the controversy, I would rather have my M/2 in hand than ANY ,ANY , submachinegun! More range, accuracy in general, and one helluva lot more penetration...Not to mention it handles quicker and smoother than any of the latter.




dogrunner has a point. In full-auto form the M2 may not have the evil looks of a Sub-gun, but has everything else going for it. In civilian form all these sub-guns end up being is overdressed pistols. In the case of the M2, it's civilian version the M1 is STILL a very competent weapon.
More range, more ACCURACY, and in most cases just as smooth as a pistol caliber subbie: Full-auto or not.



I wasnt going to bring it up but I've long thought the M-2 was the first Assault Rifle . Maybe it wasnt meant to be and Im sure it'll be disputed .

My reasons are it IS a rifle not a carbine and it's rd was designed for it ... Rifle Cartridge . Full Auto , 15 or 30 rd mag ............ . I know everyone gets all worked up over the Strumburger 44's . But IMHO it was late to the party . (smileys , no flame , Happy Happy)
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:22:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rocklock:

Originally Posted By Atreides:

Originally Posted By dogrunner:
And to add to the controversy, I would rather have my M/2 in hand than ANY ,ANY , submachinegun! More range, accuracy in general, and one helluva lot more penetration...Not to mention it handles quicker and smoother than any of the latter.




dogrunner has a point. In full-auto form the M2 may not have the evil looks of a Sub-gun, but has everything else going for it. In civilian form all these sub-guns end up being is overdressed pistols. In the case of the M2, it's civilian version the M1 is STILL a very competent weapon.
More range, more ACCURACY, and in most cases just as smooth as a pistol caliber subbie: Full-auto or not.



I wasnt going to bring it up but I've long thought the M-2 was the first Assault Rifle . Maybe it wasnt meant to be and Im sure it'll be disputed .

My reasons are it IS a rifle not a carbine and it's rd was designed for it ... Rifle Cartridge . Full Auto , 15 or 30 rd mag ............ . I know everyone gets all worked up over the Strumburger 44's . But IMHO it was late to the party . (smileys , no flame , Happy Happy)



Yes, it very well could have been an assault rifle had we made it in a more powerful caliber. Like if we had used a shortened .30-'06 (shorter than .308, but still bottle necked and loaded with a slightly lighter bullet), it would be a lot like 7.62x39. Would come out a lot like a Mini-Thirty, which would've been pretty decent in WWII. I've heard of people converting M1 Carbines to .357 Mag, in the picture of one of these conversions being fired that I saw (damn it, can't find the pic), it had quite a muzzle flash.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:53:09 PM EDT
The M-1 Carbine was not the first "assault rifle".

IMHO, however, it was the first Personal Defense Weapon (PDW), a hot concept that is supposed to be cutting-edge theory...but it has been sitting under our noses for nearly 60 years!

P-90, eat your heart out! You're rather late to the party!
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:10:07 PM EDT
A P90 chambered in .30 carbine would be kind of cool
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:18:56 PM EDT
Or, an M-1 Carbine chambered in 5.7...
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:23:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Or, an M-1 Carbine chambered in 5.7...



To each their own. The 5.7 doesn't do anything for me personally.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:34:19 PM EDT
or an M4 chambered in 5.56mm
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:04:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By guardian855:
or an M4 chambered in 5.56mm



Boring
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:46:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Or, an M-1 Carbine chambered in 5.7...




Ever heard of 5.7 Johnson?

Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:13:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sigurd:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Or, an M-1 Carbine chambered in 5.7...




Ever heard of 5.7 Johnson?




Yeah! I have some old gun magazines and they have ads for that gun.

Ahead of its time I guess!
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:07:22 AM EDT
Went deer hunting with an M1 carbine when I was young. It's funny that the FMJ round wouldn't penetrate clothing, but the SP would put a full grown buck down with no problem. Of course, I was hunting where anything over 100 yards would have been a long shot. I'll bet if you had an adequately designed modern bullet, it would be a great self defense weapon.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:59:59 AM EDT
Had the same experience , one dead buck at 70yds . Perfact broadside , thru and thru exit hole @ nickel size . He did run about 60 yds B4 he died .
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:38:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By Knight_Shadow:
both has good info on .30 carbine

The Box O' Truth #8 - The Rags O' Truth
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm



+1, those links are worth a thousand arm-chair commando theories words.



Thanks for the kind words.

I wish I had done the first test a little differently, but I still learned something. Clothing sure won't stop a .30 Carbine round.

Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch felt that the .30 Carbine with the right loads was certainly a good defensive weapon.

I have had good luck feeding Winchester "Hollow Soft Point" (that's what it says on the box, really) through my Carbine.

I will truthfully admit that I much prefer an AR15 platform in 5.56, but would not feel empty-handed with a .30 Carbine.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:07:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ag_Bullet:
Went deer hunting with an M1 carbine when I was young. It's funny that the FMJ round wouldn't penetrate clothing, but the SP would put a full grown buck down with no problem. Of course, I was hunting where anything over 100 yards would have been a long shot. I'll bet if you had an adequately designed modern bullet, it would be a great self defense weapon.



From what I've read the old NYPD Stakeout squad found that the M1 carbine loaded with softpoint or hollowpoint (can't recall which) had better stopping power than even the 12g shotgun. IIRC every single badguy they shot with one stopped whatever villainy they were up to & dropped right in their tracks.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:40:20 PM EDT
A .30 Carbine softpoint can shame a .357mag with a similar load.

Now, would you want to get tagged with a .357mag?

Seriously. The Carbine is as effective as an M16-platform close-range, bigger bullet, comes in softpoints, uses the old tappet system...which anyone who owns an M1 Carbine will tell you will run forever with little maintaince other than some grease...I own 4 Carbines. I doubt any has ever had it's gas piston taken out and cleaned, as they are staked. One of them, I wrenched out...yah, 60 years of crap under it. It ran like a top beforehand; I just wanted to see. Still runs like a top today. The only worry I ever had was extractors, and they're pretty available and easy to swap out.

In ball form the ammo isn't much better than any other ball on the planet, but when you branch out..whoa.

Accurate, too. I can easily keep a 30 round mag inside a paper plate at 100 yards. Think about it...it ain't sharpshooting, but it's enough to drop anyone.

Thumbs up.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:11:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dogrunner:
And to add to the controversy, I would rather have my M/2 in hand than ANY ,ANY , submachinegun! More range, accuracy in general, and one helluva lot more penetration...Not to mention it handles quicker and smoother than any of the latter.



How about this one - it's chambered in .30 Carbine!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:57:06 PM EDT


This gun was given to me when I was 8 years old. This is what I learned to shoot rifles with.

I will never ever let it go, and as for accuracy and damage. WHOA! All I can say is, very under estimated.



If you can get one, I say go for it.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:19:21 PM EDT
I was shot with an M 1 Carbine while serving in Korea, it was winter really, really cold. I mean really, Iwas wearing longjohns, OG wool shirt and pants, Field jacket with liner, field pants with liner,parka with liner ,pile cap, trigger finger mittens, and Mickey Mouse boots. Did I mention it was cold? Anyway that puny carbine bullet hit me in the right forearm, went through all that clothing, through my skin, meat, armbone,and out the other side. Leaving a neat little hole on the back of my sleeves. So in my opinion clothing won't stop that round.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:35:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bearcat6:
I was shot with an M 1 Carbine while serving in Korea, it was winter really, really cold. I mean really, Iwas wearing longjohns, OG wool shirt and pants, Field jacket with liner, field pants with liner,parka with liner ,pile cap, trigger finger mittens, and Mickey Mouse boots. Did I mention it was cold? Anyway that puny carbine bullet hit me in the right forearm, went through all that clothing, through my skin, meat, armbone,and out the other side. Leaving a neat little hole on the back of my sleeves. So in my opinion clothing won't stop that round.



Would you consider working with me on a Box O' Truth production?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:42:52 PM EDT
What do you want me to do?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:46:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bearcat6:
What do you want me to do?



Probably catch the bullets and diagram out all the damage

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