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Posted: 1/5/2003 6:14:45 AM EST
I watched the beginning of Steven Segal's first movie last night, "Above the Law." There's a scene showing him in Southeast Asia in 1973 carrying a CAR-15 or possibly an M4, I couldn't get a good look at the barrel profile. Were those M16 variants around back then? I didn't think they were.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 6:25:36 AM EST
There were no M4's around back then. I do believe that in the movie he had an XM177E2 or similar model.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 6:37:57 AM EST
Why would you want to watch any Steven Segal movie?
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 6:39:25 AM EST
I started seeing a few carbines basic same M16 with telescope stock and 16" barrel in the early 70's. I used to help train SF and they had some but definately not common by no means.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 6:41:55 AM EST
Ah, I do believe that was it. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 6:44:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2003 6:45:41 AM EST by marvl]

Originally Posted By Max_Power:
Why would you want to watch any Steven Segal movie?



Only watched the first 10 minutes. I've always liked the beginning where he is conducting the Aikido class in the dojo. He was actually quite good at it. Now, of course, he's too fat to threaten anyone with anything except sitting on them.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 6:57:20 AM EST
You guys don't know shit. Watching Segal is great fun. Ever watch him run especially a shot from the back!
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 7:26:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 9:57:21 AM EST
The XM177E2 became fairly common in Viet Nam during the last few years of the war. My copy of the GI manual is dated July, 1967, so even allowing for lag time in issuing, you'd have had quantities availablr by the beginning of '68. My major bitch w/the ones shown in movies is that they're not accurate versions. Almost all of them are hoked up versions, with the funky long skinny imitation muzzle devises you can buy at gun shows. You can get a dimensionally accurate version of the original (10 inch barrel) XM177 brake from Bushmaster, but no one I know of makes a non sound suppressed E2 (11.5 inch barrel) clone, with the funky tapered washer at the rear. 20 years ago I had to make my own, out of an early model.

Can always tell who'se a Viet Nam combat vet by the looks I get at the range when I have the piece w/me. The vets always give it a long hard stare
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 10:16:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By shamayim:
The XM177E2 became fairly common in Viet Nam during the last few years of the war. My copy of the GI manual is dated July, 1967, so even allowing for lag time in issuing, you'd have had quantities availablr by the beginning of '68. My major bitch w/the ones shown in movies is that they're not accurate versions. Almost all of them are hoked up versions, with the funky long skinny imitation muzzle devises you can buy at gun shows. You can get a dimensionally accurate version of the original (10 inch barrel) XM177 brake from Bushmaster, but no one I know of makes a non sound suppressed E2 (11.5 inch barrel) clone, with the funky tapered washer at the rear. 20 years ago I had to make my own, out of an early model.

Can always tell who'se a Viet Nam combat vet by the looks I get at the range when I have the piece w/me. The vets always give it a long hard stare



I also believe 1968 is about right.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 10:36:29 AM EST
Armalite and Colt developed carbine versions of the A5-15 from the begining, in the late 50's early 60's.
One of the first "CAR's" was the Colt Pilot's survival carbine. This had a 10"' barrel, a cone-shaped flash hider, and a simple non-adjustable tubular butt. The entire unit, broken down, with three 20 round mags fit into an ejection seat.

The Navy SEALS used various carbine prototypes as early as the early 60's in Vietnam.

The XM's were being issued by mid to late 1967.
I have a number of pictures of Navy SEALS carrying XM's in 1968.
Link Posted: 1/5/2003 3:26:23 PM EST
I believe those refering to "CARs" and Platoon, mean weapons with 14.5-16 thin A1 profile barrels. Those too did exist up from the early 70s but i have never seen any pictures of one used in Vietnam.

Like said here, atleast the following Colts were used:

Colt Mod 07 carbine, THE original CAR-15, with the prototype stock and A1 handguard type short handguards

XM-177 (So called USAF version without forward assist, 10" barrel)

XM-177E1 (So called Army version with forward assist, 10" barrel)

XM-177E2 ( New flashhider and 11.5" barrel)

Link Posted: 1/6/2003 10:18:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2003 10:24:04 AM EST by Colt-653]
The 14.5" Colt Model 653 was developed in 1971/1972 but wasn't built in larger #'s till late 1975. They were not used in Vietnam.

The 10.5" XM177E1 was made from mid 1965 till late 1967 when the 11.5" XM177E2 replaced it.

XM177E2s( GAU-5) were still in inventory with the USAF as late as 1997.Most of the US Army issue XM177 had been updated with newer Colt 14.5" barrels circa 1978.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 8:44:21 AM EST
In '66, the XM177E1 was fairly commonly issued to officers. I remember the platoon leaders, company commanders, and forward observers carrying them. Our FO almost took a guys head off trying to help the guy out of a swampy area and using the XM177E1 to reach out to him. Would think a Lt. would know enough to safe it before extending it, or at least take his finger off the trigger. We had XM16E1's, M79's, XM185E1 grenade launchers (under the barrel, preceded the M203's), M60's, and M1911A1's. Oops, almost forgot the Maw Deuces on our APC's.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 7:14:37 PM EST


ColtShorty©

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted
and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do
these things to other people and I require
the same from them."

Link Posted: 1/7/2003 7:30:06 PM EST
That is a lot of Willie Pete man! You guys didn't like the NVA and VC much, did ya?
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 8:08:08 PM EST
XM177E2 and I have studied Akido for many years. Segal is a master and I enjoy the few Akido portions of his movies. Segal does tend to toss his Tussy custom .45's when he runs out of ammo. Never figured where all those pistols went.

By the way, never underestimate a fat man. He who is a master of Akido, can perform those skills well past the prime of life.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 5:28:54 AM EST
GBs in the pic. Only Americans issued tiger stripes. Same with the little pork pie hat. That's also why they all have XM177-series rifles. Is that a M79 with a sawed off stock??
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 5:50:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2003 5:51:24 AM EST by TomJefferson]
M Forgery,

I actually studied Akido as well and is why I watch his movies and he does have the moves!

But you have to admit his Butt is funny!

And by the way guys, thanks for the history. It's good to know my memory is not going.
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