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Posted: 8/10/2015 9:42:42 PM EST
I've saved up enough money to get into the game, now I'm not sure what to buy...which is keeping me out of the club. Here is what I've narrowed it down to:



1.  One of Spiwak's M16A2s - Pricey, but it is the top of the line. I will shoot it, which means it will drop in value to start, but it seems like a sound purchase.

2.  A HK sear - cheaper to shoot in my turner MP5, but they are rare as hell.  I'm willing to wait for the right one, though.

3. M16/M16A1 - less expensive and I can get a shooter grade

4.  Colt conversion or police trade in - even less expensive, but lacks the history.




I have no idea what to choose, which leads me to choose nothing. This will likely be my only high dollar MG purchase, so I'm trying to choose well. Input is appreciated.
Link Posted: 8/10/2015 10:04:31 PM EST
[#1]
Yeah either the M-16 or Hk sear makes a great choice. The M-16 is much cheaper on parts and things of course. However the HK's are quite nice as well, but you will spend a lot more money here buying many hosts and parts. If money is an issue I'd go M-16 for sure. I will say that I prefer the HK's for 9mm, love the Mp5 family. I prefer the M-16 for 5.56mm though, runs better than my Hk's in this caliber. For belt-fed options the ARES Shrike is not very expensive and lots of fun, of course I consider it more a toy and not a serious machine. The HK-23E on the other hand is a real belt-fed machine, but is much more expensive to get into. Get the M-16 first, then eventually get the HK sear later ;)
Link Posted: 8/10/2015 10:05:58 PM EST
[#2]
Quoted:
I've saved up enough money to get into the game, now I'm not sure what to buy...which is keeping me out of the club. Here is what I've narrowed it down to:

1.  One of Spiwak's M16A2s - Pricey, but it is the top of the line. I will shoot it, which means it will drop in value to start, but it seems like a sound purchase.
I would not recommend buying a Colt M16A2 just for a "shooter" it will damage the value and there is $10-15k worth of collectable value you are paying for.
2.  A HK sear - cheaper to shoot in my turner MP5, but they are rare as hell.  I'm willing to wait for the right one, though.
Whole different line of firearms. If you like HK go for it, but dont buy a HK if you want a M16. Also the semi-auto host guns for HK sears are sometimes more expensive than some MGs. AR15/M16 owners are spoiled with an abundance of cheap parts and accessories. Thank you capitalism/competition
3. M16/M16A1 - less expensive and I can get a shooter grade
Yes the Colt M16/M16A1 are more suited for a shooter, sometimes you can get lucky and fund one thats been used hard and is being sold for cheaper. Youre still looking at $5k+ of collectable value.
4.  Colt conversion or police trade in - even less expensive, but lacks the history.
Colt AR15 conversion are great shooters, sure they have no history but do you want to pay $5-15k for "history" its not like any of the Colt M16s were ever used in war, most of them were civilian production and they only thing they have ever killed is a watermelon or a squirrel, very different than say a MG made during the middle of WWII that has nazi markings all over it.  Dont forget about non-colt conversion rifles. Oly arms being probably the most commonly converted rifle. With a quick trip to a gun smith (My oly cost me $500 to have the deck milled down, sharp corners rounded and re-anodized) to work out any spec issues.

Also, dont forget about RLL, they can be had for even less than a non-colt RR.


I have no idea what to choose, which leads me to choose nothing. This will likely be my only high dollar MG purchase, so I'm trying to choose well. Input is appreciated.
I knew would likely only be able to buy one MG, so I also wanted something that i could enjoy to shoot and not have a panic attack if it got a scratch, something i can roll around in the mud with and not care, is lots of fun to shoot, modular and can be tinkered with and not just a "range toy" ie i could actually use it to defend myself with. For me an Oly Arms RR was the obvious choice and there has not been one day i have regretted my decision.
View Quote

My M16 RR w/ Suppressed MK18 Upper


Quoted:
Yeah either the M-16 or Hk sear makes a great choice. The M-16 is much cheaper on parts and things of course. However the HK's are quite nice as well, but you will spend a lot more money here buying many hosts and parts. If money is an issue I'd go M-16 for sure. I will say that I prefer the HK's for 9mm, love the Mp5 family. I prefer the M-16 for 5.56mm though, runs better than my Hk's in this caliber. For belt-fed options the ARES Shrike is not very expensive and lots of fun, of course I consider it more a toy and not a serious machine. The HK-23E on the other hand is a real belt-fed machine, but is much more expensive to get into. Get the M-16 first, then eventually get the HK sear later ;)
View Quote

Agreed.

I would also recommend getting the HK later. Unless you already have a big collection of HK firearms, spare parts and knowledge i wouldn't bother. They are great guns, but its a large learning curve and for someone who is used to AR its a hassle to completely start over. The transition from AR15 to M16 is obviously much easier.


Transferable M16 machine guns and estimated market values:
RLL $13-15k
RR AR15 Auto Conversion $16-19k
RR Colt M16 & M16A1 $21-26k
RDIAS $22-28k
RR Colt M16A2 $28-33k

Websites to watch for good deals on machine guns:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com
http://www.shootersdepot.com
http://www.atfmachinegun.com
http://www.autoweapons.com
http://www.impactguns.com
http://www.subguns.com
http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com
http://www.davidspiwak.com
http://dealernfa.com
http://www.gunbroker.com
http://www.nfasales.com
http://www.classiiidealers.com/
http://www.westernfirearms.com/
http://www.urban-armory.com/

Website that tracks machine gun values:
http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/


Sorry for the rant. I just know how frustrating and confusing it can be to get into NFA items let alone MGs and appreciated all of the help people here on this forum gave me during the process so i feel like i need to return the favor. For most people buying a MG will be the second largest check they ever write, maybe the first if you dont own a home or were able to get a no down payment loan.
Link Posted: 8/10/2015 10:34:09 PM EST
[#3]


For the guy buying just one MG, here are my picks -

If you want a historic gun of maximum coolness factor, get a pre-45 Thompson.

If you want a do-everything gun, then get the M16

If you want an inexpensive (relatively speaking) gun, get an UZI



Link Posted: 8/10/2015 11:48:28 PM EST
[#4]
If you're going to buy into the M16 platform, get an RDIAS. The RDIAS is cheaper than an A2, and only about 2-4k more than an A1. RDIASes are the ultimate AR accessory. It is really the only way to legally have a 'new' machine gun. Noveske full auto? LWRC full auto? No problem. And they're really easy to install. You can run an RDIAS in any genuine AR platform (some guns like the Sig MPX look like an AR, but they're not). You can even run them in high shelf guns, if you mill out the high shelf.



I own several RDIASes and I love them all. AR MGs run like workhorses; they never break down and don't need constant maintenance, like an HK (although the HK has the advantage of shooting 9mm, which is 1/3 the cost of 223).  I'd buy steel RDIAS all day long, if they were available. Problem is that they're rare and you don't see them for sale very often. Patience is a virtue.




The aluminum ones are not as durable, regardless of what advocates for the aluminum RDIASes say, as I have seen them wear around the trip hole because they're aluminum.



Link Posted: 8/11/2015 12:22:32 AM EST
[#5]
This is so tough.

I own both a Cotlt M16A1 and a Fleming HK sear.  I bought the m16 first and got a helluva deal on it, but it would taste a lie to say that it wasn't on the top of my list.  I took possession of the HK sear just this last February.

This isn't just a question of fun (though I'll get to that in a minute).  Is also a question of economics.  Now, you have a turner gun, which is fantastic.  That said, you know how expensive it was and how much the parts are for it.  Each host that you buy can run you from $1000 all the way up to $14,000.  And there are a lot of them to choose from.  I have an "N" and I'm trying to scrape together the money for a "k" right now.  It certainly isn't cheap at all.  By contrast, the m16 is unbelievably cheap.  Uppers can be had for a few hundred bucks in any length and virtually any caliber.  Keep that in mind...you can have versatility in the M16 platform for a lot less, though not as much of it.

As for fun factor, that's still up for debate for me.  I love my m16.  Love it.  Most of the time, I have a mk18 upper on it and have a blast with it.  One of these days, I may try to make it my own little hk416 by sourcing the upper, etc. for it.  And I think that most people I've encountered when I've had both guns with me have anted to shoot the m16 first...I guess that's the preferred weapon.  I do have a love affair with my mp5 though.  It's cheaper to shoot, not nearly as stressful (the blast from the m16 will eventually wear you down at the range), and it's iconic.  

No matter which you choose, you'll love it.  Now, one last consideration.  The market price for the m16s has regressed a little, whereas the market price for HK sears continues to go up at a fairly steady rate.  They're not RDIAS appreciation rates, but they are going up.  My guess for the moment is that the HK sear will outperform the m16.  By how much is anyone's guess, but I'd say that it could be a few thousand dollars difference in 2-3 years.  The counterpoint to that argument is that if something major changes, such as a positive result in Nolo's lawsuits, the value of the HK sear would be $200 or so whereas the m16 would still be worth a few thousand based on its historical value.

Give to some thought and decide which is more important to you.  I have both and honestly, I don't know that I could choose.
Link Posted: 8/11/2015 12:25:27 AM EST
[#6]
I have a RDIAS and a Fleming HK sear and I'd go with a shooter grade M-16 for your first MG. Parts are super easy to find and fairly cheap. There are multiple caliber conversions and I've run 22, 5.45, 5.56, 9mm, 45 ACP 300BO and 7.62x39 through mine.

That being said I've always wanted a MP5 and the 9mm upper for the M-16 was a bit lacking so, I sold a lot of guns and bought a Fleming sear a few years back. It's phenomenal in 9mm and the 7.62x51 option is fun from time to time. 5.56 hots guns shoot differently than a M-16, but that's not bad thing.

HK pattern parts are more expensive but haven't needed to replace anything other than a couple extractor springs.

Link Posted: 8/11/2015 12:37:41 AM EST
[#7]
If you're only getting one.....

Colt M16A1 Carbine

IMO
Link Posted: 8/11/2015 9:51:56 AM EST
[#8]
Figure out what you are going to want to shoot the most. I Shoot MP5 the most by far, cheaper, easily suppressed, and can be shot on almost any range conveniently at steel targets 25 yards or so.

Do  not get an A2 for a shooter. You are wasting money. the same could be said for an A1. Don't pay the Colt markup for a shooter. Get a conversion and shoot the crap out of out.

IMO, an HK Sear and an RDIAS are the two best solutions, depending upon what platform you want to shoot.

Link Posted: 8/11/2015 2:39:26 PM EST
[#9]
Either is a winner. Get a conversion and different uppers. or if you are into the HK lore, go that route. It is all 100% personal preference, but the price are not going to go down. They will go up.
Link Posted: 8/11/2015 3:36:00 PM EST
[#10]
If it were me (and this is what my personal collection reflects), I would get a nice conversion M16 and take the $10,000 to $15,000 in difference you save not buying an A1 or A2 Colt and put it toward your next purchase...which should be an HK Sear.

Link Posted: 8/11/2015 10:19:08 PM EST
[#11]
All of that seems like sound advice. For those of you that are DIAS owners, do you ever have any concerns about reliability?  Would it be appropriate to put one in a weapon that may be used for defensive purposes or is it something that you have for range fun?
Link Posted: 8/11/2015 10:32:53 PM EST
[#12]
I keep suppressed SBR's and suppressed handguns around for home defense since I don't feel the need for select fire inside my house and I don't want my toys sitting in the PD lockup in case I'm ever involved in a shooting.

That being said having fired just under 20k rounds through my RDIAS, I haven't experienced any reliability issues to the RDIAS. If the upper runs reliably and you have the correct buffer in the lower there shouldn't be any problems. I wouldn't feel under gunned or that I'd compromised if I had to grab my sear gun and defend my family with any of my 16" or 10.5" uppers.

Another thing is that if I have issues with any upper in semi or F/A I fix the problem or its time to part the upper out and move along.
Link Posted: 8/12/2015 11:50:39 AM EST
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
All of that seems like sound advice. For those of you that are DIAS owners, do you ever have any concerns about reliability?  Would it be appropriate to put one in a weapon that may be used for defensive purposes or is it something that you have for range fun?
View Quote


I have never heard of reliability issues with a DIAS assuming it is correctly installed and not excessively worn, even then the parts except the engraved part can be replaced.

FWIW I wouldn't hesitate to use my RR for self defense (Some people feel different based on their financial situation and/or if they live in very liberal/anti gun areas), I prefer to use the best tool possible to deal with the threat and deal with the legal and financial issues later. If I ever change my mind I have an identical SBR lower which i keep around for those annoying gun ranges that dont allow MGs on site.

I went with the RR over the RDIAS, not because of reliability but because of price, the AR15/M16 platform is so modular as is i didnt feel it made sense to pay $10k more to be able to swap it between complete rifles when i can just push two pins and put different uppers on the RR. If you shoot lots of different calibers or very different types of rifles requiring significant modification to the lower the RDIAS starts to make more sense.

The main difference with the RDIAS is you can put it into brand new lowers, which is the only way you can truly have a completely brand new full auto "Colt M4", spike, BCM or other brand of lower, with RR its always going to be a brand new upper on a 30-50 year old lower. Plus you can beat and abuse your rifles and then just buy a brand new lower for $100+
Link Posted: 8/12/2015 1:36:44 PM EST
[#14]
RDIAS is the ultimate AR accessory. I've never had a problem with any of mine, and I own several. I am still in the market for more RDIASes. At the risk of sounding like a gun snob, an AR isn't an AR unless the switch can go into the third position. You'll never look at ARs the same way after you get your RDIAS.
 



I do agree with Spartikis. The AR lower is a cheaper option. Once you strip the lower and install new parts, it's as good as a new MG and almost as good as an RDIAS.




One of the dangers of an RDIAS, is that you might lose it. No joke. It doesn't lock into the well. I had a smith tel me that the most common way that an RDIAS is destroyed is that it's lost. I can see how that would happen. With a RR, you're probably not going to misplace it or lose it.
Link Posted: 8/12/2015 1:59:11 PM EST
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

One of the dangers of an RDIAS, is that you might lose it. No joke. It doesn't lock into the well. I had a smith tel me that the most common way that an RDIAS is destroyed is that it's lost. I can see how that would happen. With a RR, you're probably not going to misplace it or lose it.
View Quote


My Broadheads fit snug into the well, I need a screwdriver to pry them out.

But I also have been at a range, when someone popped their upper, and the SWD/DIAS was attached to the lug and went flying. On a river bank no less (Mickeys for the locals), yes we found it.
Link Posted: 8/20/2015 6:52:19 PM EST
[#16]
Someone on here has a RDIAS and got an ATF letter to use it in the Colt LE901 and shoot 308.

If that doesn't tip the scale in favor of an RDIAS I dont know what would.
Link Posted: 8/20/2015 9:44:50 PM EST
[#17]
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Quoted:
Don't pay the Colt markup for a shooter.

View Quote



I don't agree.  The value of a m16a1 continues to rise faster than a RR.  It is also a factory machine gun which is pretty cool, not some gun made in a garage.
Link Posted: 8/21/2015 10:06:59 AM EST
[#18]
Link Posted: 8/21/2015 1:23:40 PM EST
[#19]
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Quoted:


I don't agree.  The value of a m16a1 continues to rise faster than a RR.  It is also a factory machine gun which is pretty cool, not some gun made in a garage.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't pay the Colt markup for a shooter.



I don't agree.  The value of a m16a1 continues to rise faster than a RR.  It is also a factory machine gun which is pretty cool, not some gun made in a garage.


If you are interested in value appreciation, you should have bought AAPL.

The point I was making was,  if you do not pay Colt markup, you can afford a second MG.
Link Posted: 8/27/2015 12:26:19 AM EST
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
All of that seems like sound advice. For those of you that are DIAS owners, do you ever have any concerns about reliability?  Would it be appropriate to put one in a weapon that may be used for defensive purposes or is it something that you have for range fun?
View Quote


I'm fortunate to own a DIAS and a Fleming HK sear in my personal collection.  I can't imagine a situation where I would need to use a machinegun to defend my family.  If that is what I had at hand I would, but I live in a development.  The houses on either side are ten feet away.  I need to know where every shot is going.  So unless there were ten guys storming my house, the selector would be on semi.  I wouldn't "need" to be on semi to function.  But with a good upper, I would trust my life to a DIAS machinegun.

My first machinegun was a Colt M16 RR.  Cool gun.  Very reliable and versatile, but not as versatile as a DIAS.  I love MGI modular magwell set up.  I can use AK mags for 7.62X39 and use modified Thompson mags for direct impingement .45ACP.  I also have a Valkyrie Armament modified 20" water cooled set up with KNS spade grips and a Valkyrie Armament modified MGI upper with three Ares piston modified 14.5" heavy fluted chrome lined barrels to use wit a standard MGI lower with a Valkyrie Armament modified magwell.  Those are some things I would not or could not have done with the Colt RR that I can do with a DIAS.

If you are on a budget, I'd go with a M16 conversion.  As posted, parts are cheap.  All you need is an upper (possibly a magwell adapter) and mags for a caliber change.  Even if you don't want a caliber change, the fun doesn't need to stop because the barrel is hot.  Push two pins, pull the hot upper off.  Put a cool upper on, push the pins back in and keep shooting.  Because when I go shooting, I go to shoot, not to stand around waiting for a gun to cool.  

Now if you really want to sink some money into what you can do, there is just so much that can be done with the roller locked platform.  I have over 20 host guns with five more at the smith being built.  Most of that collection is configurations that HK never made, like a 10mm AUTO "K" PDW, or a .40 S&W SD, or a .45XK reverse stretch that uses modified GG mags, or a SW53K AR that has a 5" 5.56X45 barrel that uses AR mags and drums.  The list goes on and on.  I have yet to get into 7.62X39 or 7.62X51 roller locks.  YMMV.

Scott
Link Posted: 8/27/2015 12:18:24 PM EST
[#21]
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Quoted:

I know of two RDIAS that have been lost:

--One was sitting in the safe and got bumped, and fell down the back, wedging itself behind an upright. It was found a couple of years later.

--One was in an AR at the range when it started to rain. Owner quickly packed up all his MGs, headed home ... and discovered his AR was RDIAS-less. He went back and searched the range for hours and hours, but no RDIAS. Never recovered it.

--A third RDIAS almost got lost: Guy took it out at the range, put it in a pocked that didn't previously have a hole ... and it fell out as he was getting into his car. He heard and saw it, so no loss.

Of course, women lose expensive jewelry on occasion, too. That's the disadvantage of owning pricey things that are also very small.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

One of the dangers of an RDIAS, is that you might lose it. No joke. It doesn't lock into the well. I had a smith tel me that the most common way that an RDIAS is destroyed is that it's lost. I can see how that would happen. With a RR, you're probably not going to misplace it or lose it.


My Broadheads fit snug into the well, I need a screwdriver to pry them out.

But I also have been at a range, when someone popped their upper, and the SWD/DIAS was attached to the lug and went flying. On a river bank no less (Mickeys for the locals), yes we found it.

I know of two RDIAS that have been lost:

--One was sitting in the safe and got bumped, and fell down the back, wedging itself behind an upright. It was found a couple of years later.

--One was in an AR at the range when it started to rain. Owner quickly packed up all his MGs, headed home ... and discovered his AR was RDIAS-less. He went back and searched the range for hours and hours, but no RDIAS. Never recovered it.

--A third RDIAS almost got lost: Guy took it out at the range, put it in a pocked that didn't previously have a hole ... and it fell out as he was getting into his car. He heard and saw it, so no loss.

Of course, women lose expensive jewelry on occasion, too. That's the disadvantage of owning pricey things that are also very small.



INSURANCE!
Link Posted: 8/28/2015 12:31:11 AM EST
[#22]
I wonder how many deals you have gotten close to making, in my experience the biggest factor in doing a deal for a machine gun are the parties involved and the price.  Often in that order.

A RR across the street for a fair price from someone that you relatively trust has a big lead over that M16 on the other side of the country with a great price from a complete stranger.

If you buy from a brand name dealer, you are probably paying an extra 20-40% and will wait twice as long to get it.

If you really can't decide, just buy an M11/9, I doubt you will regret it and at least you get into the game.  



Link Posted: 8/28/2015 1:55:04 PM EST
[#23]
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Quoted:
I wonder how many deals you have gotten close to making, in my experience the biggest factor in doing a deal for a machine gun are the parties involved and the price.  Often in that order.

A RR across the street for a fair price from someone that you relatively trust has a big lead over that M16 on the other side of the country with a great price from a complete stranger.

If you buy from a brand name dealer, you are probably paying an extra 20-40% and will wait twice as long to get it.

If you really can't decide, just buy an M11/9, I doubt you will regret it and at least you get into the game.  



View Quote


That's exactly the problem. I have no alternatives to buy locally, which means I'm ordering from a dealer.  That's very hard to do sight unseen.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/28/2015 6:00:26 PM EST
[#24]
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Quoted:


That's exactly the problem. I have no alternatives to buy locally, which means I'm ordering from a dealer.  That's very hard to do sight unseen.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I wonder how many deals you have gotten close to making, in my experience the biggest factor in doing a deal for a machine gun are the parties involved and the price.  Often in that order.

A RR across the street for a fair price from someone that you relatively trust has a big lead over that M16 on the other side of the country with a great price from a complete stranger.

If you buy from a brand name dealer, you are probably paying an extra 20-40% and will wait twice as long to get it.

If you really can't decide, just buy an M11/9, I doubt you will regret it and at least you get into the game.  





That's exactly the problem. I have no alternatives to buy locally, which means I'm ordering from a dealer.  That's very hard to do sight unseen.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I live in Cincinnati, OH which is a NFA friendly state and a large city yet I couldn't find anything local, plus if it's a local dealer you're looking at laying 6%+ sale tax which can easily be $1,000 or more on a M16 purchase.

Buying online from a different state isn't necessarily bad, ask for lots of pictures, talk to the person on the phone, verify who they are, etc... And with transfers at a few months you can have the MG in hand before you know it. Some people even arrange to have the MG looked at by a third party prior to buying, a gunsmith like M60joe can inspect a gun and give a report on the good, the bad and the ugly prior to buying it, this so allows you to confirm the MG is real, not just someone with pictures of a MG looking to take your money and run.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 10:09:26 AM EST
[#25]
sometimes guns transfer very quickly from a private seller to a class 3 FFL

every time I've done it, it took around 6 weeks

almost the same as a dealer to dealer transfer

YMMV

I don't think buying from an out of state seller is a big deal, just make sure the deal is legit

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