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Posted: 8/13/2006 1:42:33 AM EDT
Who should I look into for an integral Ruger Mark II/Mark III? SRT? AWC? anyone else?


BTW, before anyone suggests "just get a muzzle can", I already have a Warlock. I want an integral for the cool points, nothing else.
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 4:16:01 AM EDT
[#1]
Here is my SWR Warlock on a Pac-Lite Mkii upper.  You get the best of both.  It looks integral, but you can just use your warlock as normal.

Just something to think about.

Link Posted: 8/13/2006 6:10:31 AM EDT
[#2]
I'll second that setup.  I have the same configuration on a Mk III, SWR Warlock, and the Pac-Lite upper minus the rail.  Quieter than any integral I've seen on a Ruger, and the can may be moved to another gun.  

I think the look is nice also.  The Warlock is exactly the same diameter as the Pac-Lite barrel, so except for the dark grey stainless endcap, it looks like one piece.
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 7:54:05 AM EDT
[#3]
If I wanted an integral 22 suppressor on a Ruger platform I would get one of these two:



Available from your local dealer or here.

The only disadvantage to this, is you cannot clean this system by dissassembly.  The price is pretty good too, as I have seen people asking over $1000 for integral ruger setups from various manufacturers.

The second option would include the ability to disassemble and clean with the following:


Ruger Mark III Pistol Suppressors
Built on the bull barrel versions of the Ruger MK512, KMK512, MK22/45. Standard length suppressor is 7.5”x
1" stainless steel available with either black semi-gloss Moly Resin coating or natural stainless finish. Custom length suppressors are available. Sound level using high velocity ammo
with 7.5” suppressor length is equivalent to a pellet rifle. Factory adjustable sights are included.


* Stainless Ruger MkIII Suppressor (7.5” x 1”) with black Moly Resin coating installed on your blued
steel Ruger MKIII. Supressor and upper receiver is coated with black semi-gloss Moly Resin. Includes factory adjustable
sights....$ 400.


* Stainless Ruger Mark III Suppressor (7.5” x 1”) with brushed stainless finish installed on your
stainless steel Ruger MKIII bull barrel. Includes factory adjustable sights ..... $ 400.


* Stainless Ruger MKIII Suppressor (7.5” x 1”) and blued steel Ruger MKIII. Supressor and receiver finihed in semi-gloss black to match frame
Moly Resin coated. We supply new pistol....$ 675.


* Stainless Ruger Mark III Suppressor (7.5” x 1") and stainless steel Ruger MKIII pistol. Finish is brushed stainless. We supply new pistol....$ 700.


Contact John Norrell Arms, Inc



Link Posted: 8/13/2006 7:57:01 AM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:
Who should I look into for an integral Ruger Mark II/Mark III? SRT? AWC? anyone else?


BTW, before anyone suggests "just get a muzzle can", I already have a Warlock. I want an integral for the cool points, nothing else.


Take a look at the SRT Arms Integral Ruger Pistol.  I like it because it disassembles so the user can clean the expansion chamber.  Doug is building one of these for me.

Dave Brown
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 8:19:06 AM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Who should I look into for an integral Ruger Mark II/Mark III? SRT? AWC? anyone else?


BTW, before anyone suggests "just get a muzzle can", I already have a Warlock. I want an integral for the cool points, nothing else.


Take a look at the SRT Arms Integral Ruger Pistol.  I like it because it disassembles so the user can clean the expansion chamber.  Doug is building one of these for me.

Dave Brown


The SRT website didn't say if they come apart or not.  His are a bit pricy too.  Couldn't find ANY info on the John's Guns website, but I think his come apart as well, not sure on his pricing.  If Doug would get in line with his prices, he would sell more I think.

Link Posted: 8/13/2006 9:40:26 AM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 10:40:00 AM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
The SRT website didn't say if they come apart or not.  His are a bit pricy too.  Couldn't find ANY info on the John's Guns website, but I think his come apart as well, not sure on his pricing.  If Doug would get in line with his prices, he would sell more I think.


Following is a quote from SRT Arms website:  


These guns are designed for the serious shooter, who is concerned about accuracy, reliability and bullet velocity. This gun, like all of our .22 pistols, allows the suppressor tube to be removed from the gun to let you clean the expansion chamber surrounding the barrel. A .22 is very dirty, and after a few thousand rounds, if you can't scrape the crud out the expansion chamber, it will clog, and the gun starts getting loud.


I also talked with Doug before I ordered mine to clarify how the gun was constructed and how it disassembled to allow me to clean the expansion chamber.  So 1928A1, it is a partial disassembly that allows expansion chamber cleaning, but does not allow the user to remove all the baffles.

Some of the major mfgs do not make the integral anymore (exception is that Gemtech just started the Oasis which is just the upper and to my knowledge does not disassemble for cleaning) due to their complexity and cost.

Dave Brown

Link Posted: 8/13/2006 10:58:34 AM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The SRT website didn't say if they come apart or not.  His are a bit pricy too.  Couldn't find ANY info on the John's Guns website, but I think his come apart as well, not sure on his pricing.  If Doug would get in line with his prices, he would sell more I think.


Following is a quote from SRT Arms website:  


These guns are designed for the serious shooter, who is concerned about accuracy, reliability and bullet velocity. This gun, like all of our .22 pistols, allows the suppressor tube to be removed from the gun to let you clean the expansion chamber surrounding the barrel. A .22 is very dirty, and after a few thousand rounds, if you can't scrape the crud out the expansion chamber, it will clog, and the gun starts getting loud.


I also talked with Doug before I ordered mine to clarify how the gun was constructed and how it disassembled to allow me to clean the expansion chamber.  So 1928A1, it is a partial disassembly that allows expansion chamber cleaning, but does not allow the user to remove all the baffles.

Some of the major mfgs do not make the integral anymore (exception is that Gemtech just started the Oasis which is just the upper and to my knowledge does not disassemble for cleaning) due to their complexity and cost.

Dave Brown





Baffles fill up, too.  Yes, even with large expansion chambers.  If you can't clean the baffle stack, its not going to do much good.  That method only allows partial cleaning, and to me would be like saying you can clean the chamber, but not the barrel.  
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 1:04:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Another possibility to consider, STG77, is the Sound Tech integral.  In the August 2004 edition of Small Arms Review, Al Paulson tested their products -- including one that had over 50,000 rounds through it without disassembly for cleaning.  After 50,000 rounds the reduction in suppression was a couple of db for HV and SS.  I think that the design of the baffles, and the overall suppressor design will dictate how much reduction in suppression build-up of lead and carbon will actually accomplish.  I have several different .22lr suppressors and some are much more prone to leading that others for reasons I cannot explain.

Dave Brown

Link Posted: 8/13/2006 2:17:21 PM EDT
[#10]
If a design allows 15K that's more than most people will ever fire.  50K is like lifetime daily use for me.

Of course people will have other opinions but most of them are full-auto users.  In a Ruger MKII 50K is like 100 brick days.

I used to go through a brick a week with my Marvel kit, and that's like 4 hours of loading magazines and shooting as fast as you can.  (I did it about 5 times total).

I just don't see why I would want to shoot that schedule with a suppressed pistol, but if I did, it would be a muzzle can I could take apart - not an integral.

Those 100 brick days would be 100 weeks or almost two years of 500 a day on a consisten basis.  
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 3:13:30 PM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
Another possibility to consider, STG77, is the Sound Tech integral.  In the August 2004 edition of Small Arms Review, Al Paulson tested their products -- including one that had over 50,000 rounds through it without disassembly for cleaning.  After 50,000 rounds the reduction in suppression was a couple of db for HV and SS.  I think that the design of the baffles, and the overall suppressor design will dictate how much reduction in suppression build-up of lead and carbon will actually accomplish.  I have several different .22lr suppressors and some are much more prone to leading that others for reasons I cannot explain.

Dave Brown



I don't know who buffaloed you into thinking that you can shoot a 22 forever without it fill up, but whoever did is full of shit and so is Alan Paulson for saying that he has one with 50,000 rounds through it without cleaning it.  He knows you have to clean 22 cans, read his books.  The only reason he put that out is he probably got a free suppressor for doing it.  
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 8:46:00 PM EDT
[#12]

I don't know who buffaloed you into thinking that you can shoot a 22 forever without it fill up, but whoever did is full of shit and so is Alan Paulson for saying that he has one with 50,000 rounds through it without cleaning it. He knows you have to clean 22 cans, read his books. The only reason he put that out is he probably got a free suppressor for doing it.




Hey oh brainy one how many silencer books have YOU published?  How many decades have YOU been studying silencers?  Do YOU have any knowledge Paulson's reputation is for sale for the bargain price of a suppressor?  Or are YOU just a blathering idiot spewing off at the mouth unjustly defaming a real expert's reputation?  I reckon when people want to know or study about silencers they look for information written by Titsworth?

YEAH, RIGHT...
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 9:10:47 PM EDT
[#13]
personal attacks
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 9:23:45 PM EDT
[#14]
to edit
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 9:30:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 9:45:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Crud does accumulate in cans.  I just weighed one of mine and it has gained almost an oz (from 3.5 oz to almost 4.5 oz).  The thing is that it still has excellent performance.  The Sound Tech can in the SAR article gained 0.7 oz over 50,000 rounds and still had excellent performance.  BTW -- I benchmarked this can that gained almost an oz against another "standard" can that I can and do clean -- did it again this afternoon and it is the same (by my ears) relatively speaking.

So what are the points:

1.  Cans accumulate crud.
2.  Many cans (depending on the design) continue to provide excellent performance inspite of collecting crud.  

Bottom Line for me -- buy from a proven mfg that has good customer service.  

STG77 -- Several good cans and mfgs have been suggested.  Let us know which way you go.  

Dave Brown
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 10:28:22 PM EDT
[#17]



The SRT website didn't say if they come apart or not.  His are a bit pricy too.    If Doug would get in line with his prices, he would sell more I think.



They sell quite well as priced. USDA, USDI, various municiple animal control departments and other .gov branches like them fine.

if you have seen any SRT MkII/MkIII guns made in the past 4-5 years, you would find the seam between the tube and receiver pretty much invisisble, even though they do come apart, and have better suppression than the less expensive competitors, plus, we don't port all the velocity out of the bullet.

A customer  compared our MkII to another manufacturers gun  with the same ammo about 2 years ago, our gun penetrated over 700 pages into a phone book on the floor, while the competitor, which was slightly louder, according to the customer, barely got to page 375

Our guns chrono on hi-vel ammo  over 1000 FPS, while some of of our competitors barely do 800 FPS with the same ammo. Our guns also cycle most subsonic ammo, including Remington subsonic. Try running Rem subsonic in your cheap gun and see how well it cycles... it won't.

If all you want to do is shoot the dirt at your feet and don't care about anything other than to say: "hey listen to this, is that cool or what?", go for the cheapest gun you can find. If you want a real gun designed for real work, and not a toy, give us a call.


Doug
SRT Arms
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 10:44:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 11:02:08 PM EDT
[#19]
I am not sure if you are referring to my post or not, but every MkIII we make is ported, we just minimally port them so hi-vel is running 1040-1060 FPS or so, (which is subsonic at most temperatures), and subsonic is in the 825 fps range. A well known competitor has hi-vel running at 800 FPS and subsonic (which won't cycle) at just over 600 FPS.

Doug
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 11:49:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 8/14/2006 12:37:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 8/14/2006 4:10:05 AM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 8/14/2006 5:44:12 AM EDT
[#23]
Anybody can think whatever they want to, but there is no changing the fact that you have to clean 22 cans because they are dirty.

I find it very odd that SRT makes the commanche muzzle can so you can dissassemble it and clean out the baffles of junk, but the Ruger MK2/3 design only allows for the expansion chamber to be cleaned.  As for the bullet velocity issue and porting; Hineline is right, length of barrel, number of ports, size of ports, etc...are variables and are part of the design.  There is no one good setup for all ammo types.  

Doug, you refer to other manufacturers that produce a cheap weapon?  Who are you talking about?  You can IM me if you don't want to say online.  

As for the 50K 22rounds...I will call bullshit on that any day of the week.  Even in a huge can, its going to get loud as hell.  Problem is, like greenO said, who is going to take the time to prove him wrong.  
Link Posted: 8/14/2006 10:20:28 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
Anybody can think whatever they want to, but there is no changing the fact that you have to clean 22 cans because they are dirty.

I find it very odd that SRT makes the commanche muzzle can so you can dissassemble it and clean out the baffles of junk, but the Ruger MK2/3 design only allows for the expansion chamber to be cleaned.  As for the bullet velocity issue and porting; Hineline is right, length of barrel, number of ports, size of ports, etc...are variables and are part of the design.  There is no one good setup for all ammo types.  

Doug, you refer to other manufacturers that produce a cheap weapon?  Who are you talking about?  You can IM me if you don't want to say online.  

As for the 50K 22rounds...I will call bullshit on that any day of the week.  Even in a huge can, its going to get loud as hell.  Problem is, like greenO said, who is going to take the time to prove him wrong.  


The Comanche is designed for the American 180, where people can and do, run 3000 rounds thru the can in one day.

5-10 days use,a nd the can would be clogged if you can't take it apart.

Most people run less than 500 rounds thru a MkII in a year; 20-30 years, the baffles may be clogged up, but maybe not, as most of the clogging from an American 180 is from vaporized lead from the very hot barrel. Being able to clean the expansion chamber on a MkII is being able to clean where where 80% of the buildup occurs on an integral

MkII's don't get that hot to vaporize lead, either.

if you ever do clog up the baffle stack on our integral MkIII, we do complete rebuilds, which include all new baffles for $150.

The reason we don't allow customer self-rebuilds is if the baffles are put in wrong, the gun will either be louder, or the accuracy will be awful. Complex baffles have complex alignment issues. Our Comanche, is louder than all of our other cans, even though it is longer, a tradeoff we made between baffles that don't care how they are oriented,and ability to clean.

With all the informal side by side shooting, having a loud MkII compared to everyone else, won't sell you a lot of guns unless it is real, real inexpensive.

Or you just port all the velocity out of the gun to keep it quiet and tell everybody it runs best on CCI Minimags and sell it cheap, because it is louder.

By cheap guns, I am referring to ones made by companies you never see advertising in magazines anywhere, you know, the ones where the pistol/can combo is $495 or so, which means they are getting about $120 for the suppressor and machine work, at that price, you can bet it is fender washers and brass wool and 800 FPS.

Doug
Link Posted: 8/14/2006 10:36:34 PM EDT
[#25]

"Most people run less than 500 rounds thru a MkII in a year; 20-30 years, the baffles may be clogged up, but maybe not, as most of the clogging from an American 180 is from vaporized lead from the very hot barrel. Being able to clean the expansion chamber on a MkII is being able to clean where where 80% of the buildup occurs on an integral"

That was exactly what I figured would be the case.

It makes sense.  (one or two 1/8" holes and crap that goes in under high pressure probably has a hard time getting out under low pressure.).
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 5:44:13 AM EDT
[#26]
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