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Posted: 7/17/2004 1:50:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2004 1:51:06 PM EST by BoB-O]
Hello,

I was recently invited to go trap shooting and I realized that I don't own a shotgun! With the sunset of the AWB coming up, I am now planning to buy an autoloading 12ga. shotgun. What model reduces recoil the most? I've heard Benelli shotguns do a pretty good job at this. Anybody have specific model recommendations?

Thanks,
BoB
Link Posted: 7/17/2004 3:27:27 PM EST
Saiga magazine fed 12 guage has very little recoil. Currently only 5 round mags available, but 8 rounders sre made and sold in other countries and to LEO. Post september this will be a real bad boy with a folding stock.
Link Posted: 7/17/2004 6:47:14 PM EST
If you plan to shoot trap, skeet, or any other clays game I would advise you to get a a gas operated autoloader, like the Beretta AL390, AL391, or perhaps the Browning Gold series. I have both the Beretta and the Browning, they are both nice autoloaders. I would advise a 28" barrel length.

You will need to get a model with a 'normal' hunting style stock, not a 'tactical' stock. People show up at the range periodically with 'tactical' short barreled shotguns thinking they can hit stuff They usually get their clocks cleaned when they discover there is a world of difference between hitting stationary targets and moving ones......ECS
Link Posted: 7/17/2004 10:24:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By ECS:
If you plan to shoot trap, skeet, or any other clays game I would advise you to get a a gas operated autoloader



I don't know a ton about shotguns, but what makes a gas operated gun better than, say, the inertial (recoil) operated Benelli? I only ask becuase as a physics buff, I kinda like the Benelli system.

BoB
Link Posted: 7/18/2004 6:52:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2004 4:28:15 AM EST by hoosierdaddy]
IMHO, the absolute best shooting and pointing shotgun available today is the Beretta Xtrema. I do know a lot about shotguns having been a competition shooter for years. I've owned Perazzi, Krieghoff and every other O/u and auto loader on the market.

The Xtrema is simply the softest shooting "Xtremely" reliable shotgun I've found. I've found that it is the perfect all around shotgun. The 3.5" chamber is fine for any hunting I may choose and it still works great for target shooting. I get some odd looks when I step into the box with a camo shotgun but when I smoke the targets I'm usually asked what I'm shooting.



Link Posted: 7/18/2004 5:28:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By BoB-O:

Originally Posted By ECS:
If you plan to shoot trap, skeet, or any other clays game I would advise you to get a a gas operated autoloader



I don't know a ton about shotguns, but what makes a gas operated gun better than, say, the inertial (recoil) operated Benelli? I only ask becuase as a physics buff, I kinda like the Benelli system.

BoB



Nothing wrong with the Benelli recoil operated action. To me the gas guns are the softest shooting though. The Benelli is RECOIL operated so that means it needs RECOIL to make it work
Link Posted: 7/18/2004 6:34:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2004 7:04:01 PM EST
I bought a saiga 12 gauge earlier this year and I can confirm recoil is minute. Mags are getting expensive but its a great shotgun.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:27:16 PM EST
*bump*

Just wondering if others have opinions.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:47:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 6:49:14 PM EST by chrome1]
Benelli Super Black Eagle II ComforTech ...... Smooth and Fast

Edited for Link Benelli
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:53:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By chrome1:
Benelli Super Black Eagle II ComforTech ...... Smooth and Fast

Edited for Link Benelli



I shoot a lot of rifles. What would the recoil of this compare to when loaded with regular olde 3" trap loads?

BoB
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:26:53 PM EST
Yesterday I took my new Benelli Super Black Eagle to the sporting clays and shot 75 rounds of 2 3/4", 1300 FPS (3 3/4 dram equivalent?) Wincherster AA 1 1/8 oz. loads to practice for Dove season next week. This is the hottest load they have for Trap/Skeet/Sporting clays that I am aware of.

I also have a Browning Gold Hunter , Remington 1100, Winchester O/U. We also shot a .20 gauge short barrel single shot and a .410 pump.

The Benelli did not seem to kick that much less than the Browning, or the Remington auto loaders. The O/U always kicks more, but competition shooters use less powerul 2 3/4 dram, or less loads and this isn't much of an issue. My shoulder was sore, but not as sore as I thougt it would be.

The single shot .20 gauge kicked the most by far as it had not butt pad and weighed the least. The .410 was like shooting a .22 compared to all of them.

I like the Benelli but I don't think the recoil is much less if any than the other gas operated shotguns. The recoil operated action is much cleaner and no crap blows in your face from the gas venting. It did cost $ 1275 dollars for the camo version in 28" with 5 chokes which is significantly more than the other available shotguns. The Benelli will also shoot everything from 3 dram 1 1/8 oz. loads up to the max load 3 1/2" loads with no changes in the field.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:30:50 PM EST
But what are we talkin', here? .223, .243, .270, .308, .30-06? I'm just wondering the magnitude. The only 12ga that I've ever fired was an old single shot that put me on my ass when I was 12.

BoB
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:12:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By BoB-O:

I shoot a lot of rifles. What would the recoil of this compare to when loaded with regular olde 3" trap loads?

BoB



Hard to say , but its much less then my M1-S90 , I' guess I'd compare it to a Rem 1100 shooting
field loads .
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:21:28 PM EST
12 gauge, 2.75" (1oz at 1180fps) 7.5 lb. gun weight 17.3 ft. lbs. recoil
12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/8 at 1200) 7.5 23.0
12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/4 at 1330) 7.5 32.0
12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/2 at 1260) 7.5 45.0
12 gauge, 3" (1 5/8 at 1280) 7.5 52.0
12 gauge, 3" (1 7/8 at 1210) 8.75 54.0
10 gauge, 3.5" (2 1/4 at 1210) 10.5 62.9

.300 WSM (180 grain, MV 2950 fps), 6.5 lb. rifle = 30.8 ft. lbs.
.300 WSM (180 grain, MV 2950 fps), 8.5 lb. rifle = 23.6 ft. lbs.

Information from www.chuckhawks.com

As you can see the 12 ga. recoil ranges from 17.3 ft.lbs. recoil up to 62.9 ft. lbs. of recoil, ouch.

The average 12 ga. load is probably near the 23 ft. lbs. range which is equivalent to a 180 grain bullet fired at 2950 fps from an 8.5 lb. rifle. This would be more than the standard .30 06 180 grain 2650 fps and more like the .30 06 Hornady Light Magnum load at 2820 fps.

All of these calculated values depend upon the weight of the firearm with heavier translating to less recoil. 12 gauge trap or skeet loads of 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 dram are not bad from any autoloading shotgun due to the weight of the gun. When you go up to the 3" and 3 1/2" loads for hunting you are out of the league of all but the heaviest rifles. Hunting this does not bother me, but I wouldn't want to shoot 50 rounds of 3 1/2" turkey, or goose loads in a week.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:29:35 PM EST
So if they use an x lb spring, would felt recoil on an autloader be (recoil - x)?

BoB
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:36:33 PM EST
No, it isn't that simple. The spring is only part of the equation required to calculate the recoil and it is set to cycle with different loads.

The .12 gauge isn't that bad. On the sporting clays course you can shoot either 50, 100, or 150 targets per round and some people shoot multiple rounds.

You just normally don't go out and burn up that many .30 06 rounds in a short time. Get a good recoil pad on the gun you choose as that seems to help the most.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:14:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By BoB-O:
But what are we talkin', here? .223, .243, .270, .308, .30-06? I'm just wondering the magnitude. The only 12ga that I've ever fired was an old single shot that put me on my ass when I was 12.

BoB



12 Guage TARGET loads are mild compared to full house buckshoot and/or slugs.

I would put the recoil somewhere between the .223 and .308. Definately less than .308.

Over/unders, side by sides, and pumps have more recoil than the autoloaders because the moving parts in the autoloaders store energy and then release it. All this motion spreads out the recoil time so its not so sharp and pronounced.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:54:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:11:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By mike103:
B-O, You did not give a price range. Remington 1100 would be in the 450 to 650 range and the Beretta's would be in the 600 to 1500 range depending on model. Recoil operated guns are great for hunting and self defense but gas guns are better for targets. MIKE.



Serious question: What is the basis for that statement? Several people have made it and it doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

BTW, I'd spend up to $1500 to get reliable comfort.

BoB
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:24:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:50:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By mike103:
Bob, You don't understand this price question or the difference between recoil operated and gas operated guns.? MIKE.



Price makes sense. I understand how they work, but I don't understand the gas operated gun being better/worse for a particular activity than a recoil operated.

Thanks,
BoB
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 3:05:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 3:09:00 PM EST by mike103]
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 3:19:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 3:30:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 5:36:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 5:38:34 PM EST by ECS]

Originally Posted By BoB-O:

Originally Posted By mike103:
Bob, You don't understand this price question or the difference between recoil operated and gas operated guns.? MIKE.



Price makes sense. I understand how they work, but I don't understand the gas operated gun being better/worse for a particular activity than a recoil operated.

Thanks,
BoB


The gas guns have less recoil. Recoil eventually causes flinching which leads to lost targets. So any reduction in recoil is a good thing. You may not think you have any flinching until your gun jams and you practically fall off the shooting station.

Some people are not recoil sensitive but many are including myself. Shoot a couple hundred targets in a day and you will start to notice the recoil even with target loads.

Hunting is different. You don't typically shoot 10 boxes of shells in one day so if the recoil is higher you can tolerate it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 4:27:52 AM EST
I am a fan of the 1100 when it comes to autos - and the 870 for a pumpgun... I have a friend who does alot of shotgunning - whose input I respect, and he really likes his Winchester SuperX2 - and he's shot 'em all at one time or another...


-georgestrings
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:28:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By mike103:
Bob, The short answer is that the gas autoloader uses some of the gas from the shot to work the action and giving the shooter less perceived recoil. The recoil operated gun uses your shoulder as a fixed object to operate the gun. If the recoil operated gun was fired without a backstop it would not load the next shell.

Gas gun are more plesant to shoot so that is why they are used for targets. They are less reliable if not kept clean. Recoil operated guns are more dependable because thay are not as dirty and not as fussy with the different loads used. But they kick hard! MIKE.




Originally Posted By chrome1:
Benelli Super Black Eagle II ComforTech ...... Smooth and Fast



So this whole topic was prompted by a review of the SBEII in American Rifleman. They claim a 35% reduction in felt recoil. Does this allow the recoil operated Benelli to surpass a gas operated gun?

BoB
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:54:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:02:16 AM EST
Benelli M1014. Despite all other Benellis being recoil operated the M1014 is GAS operated and recoil is very managable. The M1014 has two large gas pistons under the handguards that are removeable for cleaning and the shotgun will cycle even the very light dove/quail loads.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:20:25 PM EST
Can anyone find any statistical data on the recoil reduction of a gas operating system vs. a recoil operated system?

My shoulder can't tell much difference, but the Benelli SBEII does not kick appreciably harder than either of my gas operated shotguns.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:18:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:12:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 5:13:56 PM EST by mike103]
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:03:56 AM EST
I was looking at a new Benelli, but after this i think I will go with a Beretta 391. Great info thanks guys I almost exclusively use o/u Browning for skeet (I hate too pick up hulls since I reload)and was looking for a light recoil auto in 20 ga. to start my daughter on.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:59:28 AM EST
In general shotguns recoil according to the following list from most to least given the same shells are used:
Over-under/side-by-side
pump
recoil operated
gas operated

I used to own a Benelli M3 which was an awesome shotgun and was fast as shit. However, being recoil operated it kicked like a mule and was ammo sensitive. Recoil operated guns tend to be more ammo sensitive than the gas guns. You need a shell that kicks pretty good to get them to function reliably. This is part of the reason that you hear more stories about recoil guns kicking more; because they have to in order to function.

Personally I'd go with an 110 or 11-87 and be done with it. That way you don't have too much invested into a game you may not wind up enjoying that much.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:11:54 AM EST
What you need to do is get out to a range and get some trigger time on each model, not depend on a bunch of message bouard posters to describe the feeling to you. There's only so much of the experience you can convey with words. Just do it.
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