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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/28/2002 7:49:18 PM EDT
I understand that the benelli M4 has made its debut to the marine corps but when will it be for sale to the general public? Or is it already available? I see no hint of civilian availability on the benelliusa.com site.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 8:30:02 PM EDT
I spoke with some Benelli employee/rep. about this very thing a while back, and was told that it would to be released, but the time-frame was unknown. Given recent events, safe to presume any date previous to 9/11/01 was pushed back indefinitely.

Figure at least 1 year. Probably longer. [>(]
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 7:37:27 AM EDT
I alos had a chance to speak to a Benelli rep, he told me the gun is definitely coming, but it will have to be after they catch up with the military orders. Probably sometime next year. The M4 will have full stock, don't know if it is with pistol grip or not. magazine count is unknown too due to the stock decision.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:18:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:39:56 PM EDT
Yeah, take it to be another year or so. Of course, we may be in for a suprise this summer. Benelli hasn't updated their web site for 2002 yet.

I really don't think civilians have anything to gain buying the M4 over the M1 tactical, except for the Picatinny rail maybe. However, I would much rather have the ghost rings sights. I think a red dot, Trijicon or Eotech would be a little bit excessive on a shotgun.

Anyway, I played with the thing at the NRA Show last May, 2001. It weighs 8.2 lbs without accessories. The receiver is beefed up so it can handle DEPLETED URANIUM slugs (acdording to the rep...I would like to more about DU shotgun slugs) used to blow steel doors off their hinges. A basic M1 receiver was being beaten to hell due to these super power 3" magnum loads (whatever they are).

Another factor in going to the ARGO gas operating system, according to this rep, was that the M1 tactical, due to the Benelli inertia recoil system, would not cycle when outfitted with all the crap the Marines and Spec Ops wanted on their shotguns: night vision equipment, tactical lights, turbo-laser cannons, etc. This is because the std. Benelli inertia recoil system needs the gun to move back an inch or so from its original firing position in order to cycle.

Anyway, I doubt it would be worth waiting for the M4 unless you absolutely would want to have a M4 with that collapsible stock and a 5 shot capacity just to say you have a M4. I'm planning to get a M1, std. stock, 7 shot capacity and ghost ring tritium sights. I think I'll be set

themao
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 2:49:54 PM EDT
Something that no one has touched on is that I'm pretty sure that they won't be able to introduce the M4 in the same exact configuration that the military can have it thanks to Klinton. Just as "assualt" rifles can only have a certain count of "evil" features, I believe the same applies to shotguns. I believe that some of the "evil" features for a semi-auto shotgun are;

- capacity over 5 (I think) rounds
- pistol grip
- folding stock

If I'm not mistaken, you can have two of these on a semi-auto, but not all three.

It's something like that. I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the internet.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 8:33:14 PM EDT
The ARGO system reduces recoil more than the inertial system on the previous models. As far as the config., a standard stock allows for a full 7-shot tube. A pistol grip requires 5-shot or less. You can have one or the other, but not both. I believe telestocks are illegal on post-ban SG's.

Personally, I'd take the standard stock, which is actually more manueverable for CQB than a pistola stockola, and keep the 7-shot tube. 7 "lives" is almost as good as 9, and better than 5, IMO.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 12:06:03 AM EDT
777: Forgot to mention that. They'll probably have the same set of stocks as on the M1. I'm not sure what the legality is concerning retractable stocks on semi-auto shotguns. As for capacity, I guess they'll put a permanent plug in or they won't offer a pistol grip stock at all.

Master_Blaster: Well said. I'm with you on the std. stock and 7 shot capacity. I've tried a pistol grip, and it just doesn't feel right....especially with the cheek weld position, since it seems to be a little bit lower than a std stock.

themao
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 4:27:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 777:
Something that no one has touched on is that I'm pretty sure that they won't be able to introduce the M4 in the same exact configuration that the military can have it thanks to Klinton. Just as "assualt" rifles can only have a certain count of "evil" features, I believe the same applies to shotguns. I believe that some of the "evil" features for a semi-auto shotgun are;

- capacity over 5 (I think) rounds
- pistol grip
- folding stock

If I'm not mistaken, you can have two of these on a semi-auto, but not all three.

It's something like that. I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the internet.



Actually, you can only have one of those features. I'd assume they'll offer both a PG (non-collapsing) version with a 5rd tube, and a straight stock version with the full tube, just like they do on the m1 and m3 right now. Of course, by the time they actually get here, the 94 crime bill may have expired (*crosses fingers*) so it all may be a moot point anyways ;). Even though it's imported, I'm pretty sure shotguns are only covered in 922(v), and not elsewhere.

Rocko
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 4:53:39 AM EDT
What, you guys still dont have these
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 9:42:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tuukka:
What, you guys still dont have these



Tuukka, since you have access to an M4, do you know with any certainty if the M4 collasping stock can be fitted to a M1?

I know that many other preban M1 owners are curious about this...
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 10:39:41 AM EDT
HKocher:

When I looked at the M4 at the gun show, I held it up against a M1 tactical. The receiver is thicker and as a result is also wider. I don't think the receiver block for the stock is compatible with the std or pistol grip stocks of the M1. It was cut differently since a steel tube basically extends from the gun. I may be wrong though, and of course Benelli could change that by the time they start selling it.

In the mean time, I WANT MY M1!!!!

themao
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 10:48:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tuukka:
What, you guys still dont have these



This is why you're really here, isn't it? To plague us with your stories of easily purchased benellis and HK g3sg/1's. [>Q]
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 5:27:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shooter69:

Originally Posted By Tuukka:
What, you guys still dont have these



This is why you're really here, isn't it? To plague us with your stories of easily purchased benellis and HK g3sg/1's. [>Q]



Damn...now you´ve blown my cover....
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 5:39:13 PM EDT
Actually....

You can have any and all bad features on a post ban semi auto shotgun if it has a 5 round magazine capacity.

If you read the law, it says a semi auto assault weapon is a shotgun with a +5 mag and a telescoping/folding stock or a pistol grip. Then later, it says a SAW shotgun is not illegal if it has a 5 round magazine tube.

You can also have any and all bad features on a post ban semi auto rifle if it has a 5 round magazine capacity and nobody makes a magazine larger than 5 rounds.

These two guns are assault weapons, but under the 1994 crime bill are not 'banned' assault weapons.

So, you can have a legal, semi-automatic assault shotgun: in a M4 with a 5 round tube, pistol grip and the fancy telescoping stock. Although the 7-8 tube would require the straight stock. I believe that BATF may be able
to decide it as a non sporting import (the telescoping-ness) and administratively ban the importation. Then you would only be able to configure such a shotgun out of a domestic model.

I was quite flabbergasted when I read it myself.

-Manhattan23
your resident armchair alwyer
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 5:42:23 PM EDT
I shot a M1014 a few weeks ago, it's a shot gun. Nothing really special about it.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 6:09:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By themao:
777:...As for capacity, I guess they'll put a permanent plug in or they won't offer a pistol grip stock at all.



As far as the feed tube goes, they could very well follow what is done with the M1 & M3. That is, equip it with a 5-shot capacity that is legally expandable to 7-shot when employing a standard stock. As well, in the an official HK/Benelli press release, the M4, in addition to having the telestock, also has fixed synthetic pistol grip & standard stocks available that fit right in. Thus, Benelli could easily slap on a standard stock & keep the 7-shot tube. From Benelli's vantage, there'd be no additional modification & associated cost to do that.


Also Originally Posted By themao:
Master_Blaster: Well said. I'm with you on the std. stock and 7 shot capacity. I've tried a pistol grip, and it just doesn't feel right....especially with the cheek weld position, since it seems to be a little bit lower than a std stock.

themao



Cool. You cover the right, I'll cover the left. Paint the walls with 'em.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 6:10:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2002 6:14:29 PM EDT by Master_Blaster]

Originally Posted By themao:
777:...As for capacity, I guess they'll put a permanent plug in or they won't offer a pistol grip stock at all.



As far as the feed tube goes, they could very well follow what is done with the M1 & M3. That is, equip it with a 5-shot capacity that is legally expandable to 7-shot when employing a standard stock. As well, in the official HK/Benelli press release, the M4, in addition to having the telestock, also has fixed synthetic pistol grip & standard stocks that bolt right in. Thus, Benelli could easily slap on a standard stock & keep the 7-shot tube. From Benelli's vantage, there'd be no additional modification & associated cost to do that.


Also Originally Posted By themao:
Master_Blaster: Well said. I'm with you on the std. stock and 7 shot capacity. I've tried a pistol grip, and it just doesn't feel right....especially with the cheek weld position, since it seems to be a little bit lower than a std stock.

themao



Cool. You cover the right, I'll cover the left. Paint the walls with 'em.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 9:14:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By themao:
HKocher:

When I looked at the M4 at the gun show, I held it up against a M1 tactical. The receiver is thicker and as a result is also wider. I don't think the receiver block for the stock is compatible with the std or pistol grip stocks of the M1. It was cut differently since a steel tube basically extends from the gun. I may be wrong though, and of course Benelli could change that by the time they start selling it.

In the mean time, I WANT MY M1!!!!

themao



The steel tube you are refering to houses part of the recoil system. If you were to take the stock off of the M1, you would see that it also have a tube holding the recoil spring and buffer, like on an AR.

So the question would be, are these recoil tubes the same size, or are they interchangeable? If so, there is no reason why the two stocks would not be interchangeable. This would make sense for Benelli to do, so that the M4 could also be used with the PG or standard stock from the M1, if the user so desired. As far as the receiver differences, that could be a separate issue.

Another question remains, would Benelli sell the stock separately to civies? Probably not to prevent folks illegally using it on their post-ban M4. So it may be difficult to obtain one.

Link Posted: 3/17/2002 9:21:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By manhattan23:
Actually....

You can have any and all bad features on a post ban semi auto shotgun if it has a 5 round magazine capacity.

If you read the law, it says a semi auto assault weapon is a shotgun with a +5 mag and a telescoping/folding stock or a pistol grip. Then later, it says a SAW shotgun is not illegal if it has a 5 round magazine tube.

You can also have any and all bad features on a post ban semi auto rifle if it has a 5 round magazine capacity and nobody makes a magazine larger than 5 rounds.

These two guns are assault weapons, but under the 1994 crime bill are not 'banned' assault weapons.

So, you can have a legal, semi-automatic assault shotgun: in a M4 with a 5 round tube, pistol grip and the fancy telescoping stock. Although the 7-8 tube would require the straight stock. I believe that BATF may be able
to decide it as a non sporting import (the telescoping-ness) and administratively ban the importation. Then you would only be able to configure such a shotgun out of a domestic model.

I was quite flabbergasted when I read it myself.

-Manhattan23
your resident armchair alwyer



Not quite correct...

Here's the BATF's own words:


(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of-
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds;
and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.



So as you see, you cannot have any of the TWO above features. Since a telestock and a PG stock are listed as two separate features, having a PG telestock would be a violation of the assault ban.

If you keep the mag a 5 rounds, you could use a non-telescoping PG stock, but not the M4 stock.

Unless you could somehow make a telestock that does not have a 'conspicuously protuding' pistol grip, you could not have a collasping stock.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 10:57:35 PM EDT
HKocher, while the section you quote is correct, you are mistaken in your analysis.

Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, Section 921 of the US Code defines what an assault weapon is. Section 922 - titled Unlawful acts is the actual teeth of the law and states this:

(v) (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.

(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -

(C) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or

(D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

Therefore, you can legally posess a semi automatic assault weapon IF it qualifies under C and D or is made before 1994.

Manhattan23
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 11:11:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By manhattan23:
HKocher, while the section you quote is correct, you are mistaken in your analysis.

Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, Section 921 of the US Code defines what an assault weapon is. Section 922 - titled Unlawful acts is the actual teeth of the law and states this:

(v) (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.

(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -

(C) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or

(D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

Therefore, you can legally posess a semi automatic assault weapon IF it qualifies under C and D or is made before 1994.

Manhattan23



Only possible problem to (D) is that it is subject to nonsensical interpretation by our government agencies. For example, take the Saiga shotgun. There were none produced prior to 94, so there are no "hicap" (5+ rounds for a shotgun) civilian mags available whatsoever. Since there are no legal magazines available over 5 rounds, you would think that would qualify under (D). However, the ATF thinks differently - since somewhere in the world a 7 round mag is available, and those are available to LE agencies, you cannot put a PG on a Saiga shotgun. Never mind that it is infinitely easier to order the +4 mag extension for postban, PG equipped Benelli M1 or M3 than it would be to get an (illegal) 7 rd. Saiga mag. Wes at Soupbowl was supposedly coming up with a design that used a 5rd only proprietary mag to get around this.

I'm thinking that (using the same logic they did regarding the Saigas) their interpretation will be that as long as there are screw on mag tube extenders available, then any semi-auto shotgun would not be exempt under (D). If they were, I'm sure we'd see many manufacturers putting folding/collapsing stocks on their post bans with 5rd tubes. The only way I can see this working for sure, is if they imported another version of the M4 that used a different mag tube for which you could not add an extension. Even then, in this case, you'd likely run afould of the "sporting use" restrictions on imported firearms.

Rocko
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 1:26:52 PM EDT
Rocko, your perceptions are right on the money. The ATF could block the whole thing just by their non sporting purpose designation.

Nevertheless, I see a large distinction between a semi auto shotgun with a 5 round fixed tube, and a semi auto shotgun that accepts a detachable magazine. A 5 round tube gun is only a 5 round tube gun until an illegal act is performed and a +5 tube is installed. While a magazine fed shotgun is in itself an illegal gun as soon as a +5 magazine is merely manufactured. Hence the requirement for a proprietary magazine.

-Manhattan23
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 1:43:00 PM EDT

Nevertheless, I see a large distinction between a semi auto shotgun with a 5 round fixed tube, and a semi auto shotgun that accepts a detachable magazine. A 5 round tube gun is only a 5 round tube gun until an illegal act is performed and a +5 tube is installed. While a magazine fed shotgun is in itself an illegal gun as soon as a +5 magazine is merely manufactured. Hence the requirement for a proprietary magazine.

-Manhattan23



I wish BATF used your logic. Unfortunately they won't be cutting us any slack.

I see your point. So IF Benelli release the M4 with a mag tube that was rendered non-removable or incompatible with the existing 7rd tubes), then I suppose the PG telestock would be legal.

However that is a big IF, as that would require a bit of redesign, and would probably raise the price on the M4s. Also, I doubt Benelli has much desire to release a shotgun with a collasping PG stock due to the 'evil' image of such a gun.

So after further review, I agree with your legal observations, but I still think there is a slim chance of a PG telestocked M4 ever being release to the general public...
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 1:59:01 PM EDT
I'll take a 7 round tube with a regular stock over a 5 round tube with a pistol grip anyday. I'll take function over form anytime and I don't think that a pistol grip on a shotgun makes it any more usefull.
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 7:39:54 PM EDT


The one on top.

From HKPRO:
Bad news - The M4 isn't due for another 2 years.
Good news: It will be released.

This, according to a Benelli rep.
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