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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 9/3/2007 5:14:23 PM EST
I tried finding the answer to this on my own but wasn't able to.

Legally, what has to be done to add an extension to a pistol gripped M2?

Can you use a US made extension and be okay?

Can you use a Benelli made one if you use a standard stock?

How much would a Benelli ext run?
Link Posted: 9/5/2007 11:40:45 AM EST
US made Benelli mag extensions are fine. It's the imported ones that are a no-no.

Blake
Link Posted: 9/5/2007 2:10:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blake:
US made Benelli mag extensions are fine. It's the imported ones that are a no-no.

Blake


no, not fine, not even close
Link Posted: 9/5/2007 5:19:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By texasaggie:

Originally Posted By Blake:
US made Benelli mag extensions are fine. It's the imported ones that are a no-no.

Blake


no, not fine, not even close


Can you please explain? I spoke to the owner of SureCycle today and asked him this very question. He stated their mag extensions are perfectly legal and that he has the statement in writing from their attorneys and that their extensions are indeed good to go. He specifically mentioned imported mag extensions being illegal. I obviously don't know other than what I was told. How are mag extensions illegal? Thanks for the heads up.

Blake
Link Posted: 9/5/2007 5:56:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blake:

Originally Posted By texasaggie:

Originally Posted By Blake:
US made Benelli mag extensions are fine. It's the imported ones that are a no-no.

Blake


no, not fine, not even close


Can you please explain? I spoke to the owner of SureCycle today and asked him this very question. He stated their mag extensions are perfectly legal and that he has the statement in writing from their attorneys and that their extensions are indeed good to go. He specifically mentioned imported mag extensions being illegal. I obviously don't know other than what I was told. How are mag extensions illegal? Thanks for the heads up.

Blake


Certainly, don't feel bad, 99.9% of those who wish to add extensions to their Benelli's have no clue that its illegal (felony none the less). The owner of SureCycle is lying to you to get your money. Benelli does the same thing to their customers. Neither one of them care about you, just your money. We can thank our elected representatives for the mess they have caused. Here is a copy of a reply I made to somebody else a while back concerning M4's. The M1 and M2 are another animal if they do not have a pistol grip. In that case ATF will have to give you explicit written permission in order to legally add an extension since 922r does not define the features of a "non sporting" shotgun.



Start of old reply:

All rifles and shotguns that are imported into the country must be for "sporting" purposes only. This has been the case since 1990 when george bush sr. passed the first assault weapons ban. The law can be found in Ch 18 USC section 922r as found here here

this is what it reads:

922 (r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to—
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.



More can be found here where ATF specifies that an non sporting rifle or shotgun having more than 10 foreign parts is illegal.



Sec. 178.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun
using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this
section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under
section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily
adaptable to sporting purposes.

(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution
by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or
agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political
subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the
provisions of Sec. 178.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into
or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the
replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates


ATF has declared the attachment of the magazine extension on the M4 to be the construction of a "non sporting" shotgun, which is why they do not allow Benelli to attach them for sale to civilians (and more recently the collapsible stocks). This is why Benelli instead attaches that useless crimped mag extension to them. The law specifically says that ANYBODY who constructs a non sporting shotgun is committing a felony. Benelli will tell you it is okay for you to attach the extension, even though Benelli is specifically prohibited by federal law from doing so, which is very bad legal advice, because no private citizen is allowed to do so either.

But if Benelli told their customers the truth many customers would not buy their products, and would instead go with a domestic manufacturer that is not affected by the import laws (Remington, Mossberg). Benelli knows the law even though they play stupid, and purposely do so so they can continue to sell M4's to unsuspecting customers who are not familiar with the law. But they cover their asses by suggesting their customers contact ATF just to make sure.

The only legal way for you to attach the extension to your M4 is to remove enough imported Benelli parts so that you only have 10 left (see the list of 20 parts above). Then replace the parts you removed with american made parts. Unfortunately these parts don't exist yet, unless you feel inclined to somehow make your own.

End of old reply


Read this thread for more ATF goodness
Link Posted: 9/6/2007 1:58:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2007 2:07:41 AM EST by themagikbullet]
If you are worried about the 922r boogyman enforcers coming to take you away for putting an extension on your m2 with pistol grip: put on a speedfeed stock, surefire foreend, and put in one of various us made mag followers.

I believe that should do it...

I mean, has anyone been prosecuted under 922r for anything? let alone a benelli shotgun?

eta: a letter from someone on the benelli forum that asked about the m1/m2 situation you asked about which is much different than the m4...



Link Posted: 9/6/2007 11:19:13 PM EST
Can you have a pistol grip and mag extension on a an M1 that was imported before the ban? Along that line, are their M1's that are legal to have these features and ones that are not...or were most all M1's imported before the ban?

Thanks for any help!

-Mike
Link Posted: 9/7/2007 2:12:19 AM EST
I spoke to Benelli yesterday and they too were emphatic about the legality of being able to purchase and install a US made mag extension. Is there some "loophole" that makes them correct. I didn't get the feeling that Benelli or Sure Cycle were being blatantly dishonest, and I also got the feeling they had done a great deal of research with their attorneys to make sure they could tell their customers what can be done legally. That being said, I'm sure as hell not putting my ass on the line. I guess I'll call the local ATF office and maybe provide some documentation from Benelli and Sure Cycle to the ATF. I'll let ya'll know how that works out.

Blake
Link Posted: 9/7/2007 5:20:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Blake:
I spoke to Benelli yesterday and they too were emphatic about the legality of being able to purchase and install a US made mag extension. Is there some "loophole" that makes them correct. I didn't get the feeling that Benelli or Sure Cycle were being blatantly dishonest, and I also got the feeling they had done a great deal of research with their attorneys to make sure they could tell their customers what can be done legally. That being said, I'm sure as hell not putting my ass on the line. I guess I'll call the local ATF office and maybe provide some documentation from Benelli and Sure Cycle to the ATF. I'll let ya'll know how that works out.

Blake


Since Benelli is so sure its legal, have them install your extension. Just tell them, since you guys are so sure its legal, you would have no problem installing one on my Benelli right? I would like to see their reaction. They won't touch that shit with a 10 foot pole, but they will tell customer after customer that its okay for them to do it. This must be their corporate policy now, lie to their customers and let them become felons, cause they sure as hell aren't about to go to jail over it.


Link Posted: 9/7/2007 7:25:25 AM EST
Blake....Benelli has been told by the BATF to cease and hold ALL mag extensions being sold....there is a reason why you cant get them anymore from benelli....basically what ever is floating around out there right now is it.....I used to see benelli mag extensions all day long going for $50-$70.........now I see them being sold for anywhere between $150 and $300...its crazy....but the jest of it is there is so much confusion on the mag extension situation that its better to lay low and see how it plays out then to be sorry......IM M4madness he knows TONS of info about this subject
Link Posted: 9/7/2007 7:28:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2007 7:36:46 AM EST by BPR]
Of course, breaking the law is illegal whether you get caught or not, but....

Is there any documented case of anyone being prosecuted since all the 922 crap took effect that wasn't in the act of comitting some other, more serious, crime?

I've seen lots of law enforcement officials at 3 gun matches, but never seen them hassling anyone to find out when their shotgun was made. Same w/ US parts counts on FALs, G3s, AKs, etc....

Thinking of cutting the barrel down past 18", you'll get busted the first time you take the gun out, but 98% of law enforcement doesn't have a clue as to all the rules of 922. Just like 99.5% of the people around here don't know all the rules. ATF even changes it's mind on them almost weekly.

*I do not advocate or condone the illegal manufacture of prohibited imported firearms. But, there's a lot of Benellis out there w/ mag extensions and pistol grip stocks. Some were imported that way, so were not.
Link Posted: 9/7/2007 7:49:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2007 7:50:17 AM EST by survivorman]
BPR your right.....the ruling I got from benelli a while ago is..straight from them"what ever M1s and M2s so on with mag extensions are out there is it....basically those are grandfathered in by the BATF...are they going to hassle you? no but we can not and will NO longer sell mag extensions" my reply "ever??" benelli rep..."NEVER EVER" what is out there is it.........so yea are they going to screw with you? possibly not.....I even called the BATF to ask....there response was if your not using the shotgun to hold up a liquor store dont worry.....and yes that is the exact response I got from the agent


I do not condone breaking the law in anyway....these are answers I recieved from Benelli and the BATF do what you like....I would rather wait and lay low and see how things play out myself
Link Posted: 9/7/2007 12:21:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
All I can add to this thread that hasn't really been addressed thoroughly is the issue of a US-made magazine extension. A US-made magazine extension in and of itself is ILLEGAL to install on a NON-SPORTING Benelli shotgun imported after 1989. On the other hand, a US-made magazine extention DOES count towards the total 922(r) parts count. I don't know how many parts a Benelli M1/M4 consists of, but I'm sure that it's more than 11 (which would be the only legal way to install a US-made magazine extension on a non-sporting imported shotgun without additional US-made parts.)

You need to figure out how many parts the Benelli M1/M2 shotguns consist of, then swap in enough US-made parts from the list earlier in this thread to reduce the imported parts count down to 10 or less.


The letter from the atf I posted above shows the m1/m2 has 13 imported parts. IIRC the m4 has 15 because of its gas pistons.

Like I said, if you want to keep a pistol grip m1/m2 on the up and up-install the us made parts I mentioned above. Even although the atf has apparently said as long as you're not holding up a liquor store with your extended mag tube shotgun, and benelli says it's ok. Until we get news of atf agents sweeping across the country arresting the devious mag extension adding public, I'll continue to regard 922r as the hooey it is
Link Posted: 9/7/2007 1:00:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2007 1:02:00 PM EST by M4Madness]
Link Posted: 9/8/2007 6:38:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2007 6:39:37 PM EST by Walkure]

Originally Posted By M4Madness:

Originally Posted By Blake:
My common sense question to this is: If they are illegal to install on a shotgun, how are they legal to buy? I can't go out and buy an auto sear without an NFA stamp and some other paperwork.


The US-made magazine extensions are legal to buy, since they are a 922(r) compliance part. From the letter above, you only need to replace three parts with US-made parts to be compliant. A US-made magazine follower would be a second one.


But the same letter states that stocks with pistol grips as part of them count only as one part, not two. The pistol grip on the standard Benelli stocks is pretty much part of the stock - I'd be willing to bet it's considered "molded in" or otherwise integral to the stock. Hence, that's only 1 part, not 2. Bringing the total imported part count to the magic number - 10 - with a US-made mag tube and follower.

This would hold for the M1/M2/M3, and not the M4. The M4 adds to the parts count with its gas system.

(ETA - unless the M3's pump counts as an 'operating rod', in which case it, sadly, is out as well)
Link Posted: 9/9/2007 12:48:59 AM EST
Anyone who is foolish enough to write a personal letter to the ATF asking for permission to add a magtube deserves a personalized response telling them to turn in their guns and go sit in the corner. You think an agent is going to research the issue and put their career on the line by actually giving their 'legal' blessing to your request ... um, right ... and that little slip of paper you found in your fortune cookie was placed there for you and you alone.

You wonder why no one's been prosecuted? Let's see, making every citizen write in on every specific issue to find out whether it is legal or not. Yeah, solid policy from the ATF and one which a good lawyer would have a field day with.

What about the fact that the only publically published comment from Benelli on the matter is what appeared in their post-'04 catalogs saying the extensions were now legal. If Benelli was in error and have now been set straight by ATF as some preach, then they had better well publish a retraction or clarrification on their website or send letters out to registered owners. Anyone seen anything in writing from Benelli on it? Can anyone point to some publically published (no, not those personal love letters) from the ATF on it?

The situation is cloudy and that's they way they like it. The nature of the game is they do nothing. If you ask, they deny ... someone else asks, they deny ... confusion is propogated and the legal ambiguities never need to be formally addressed.

If they did push with prosecution solely for a mag tube, someone would push back and this would finally have it's day in court. Would be fun being on the jury hearing why a fully stoked 1100 is good to go, but a M1 is not. And what about those imported FNs and Super X2 practicals ... now how did they manage to slip by?? Follow the money boys. Benelli/Beretta has a lot to loose over this if it ever did get prosecuted and I assure you, if someone got hauled in over a mag tube, imported or domestic, then some very good lawyer would be pulling Benelli in as well.

Remember Benelli openly sponsors Tom Knapp and Tim Bradley, and they love them big mag tubes something fierce. Lots of nice videos on Benelli's website, not to mention all over the sporting TV channels, showing them blasting away. Hell, Mr. Knapp even sells aftermarket extensions on his site. Mighty big liability there I'm afraid. You'd think if all Benelli is interested in is money, then they would fear something bad coming from all that exposure. Makes me wonder why no one's dropped a dime on them yet.

When I see Tom Knapp hauled away in cuffs, I will start to consider this a real issue. Until then, I will just stand by awaiting Benelli's published statement on the matter.

p.s. ATF says keep those cards and letters coming in. Nothing makes their day like telling a gun owner NO.
Link Posted: 9/9/2007 3:50:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2007 3:52:58 AM EST by M4Madness]
Link Posted: 9/9/2007 12:03:44 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By M4Madness:Sterling Nixon himself paid a personal visit to Benelli at a past Shot Show and told them to cut civilian sales of the magazine extensions.


Oh I have no doubt some bloke from the ATF tried throwing his weight at Benelli. That he did it at Shot Show is rather amusing. You'd think there were more formal channels for this sort of notification.

Since Sterling has such clout, you'd think he would author an official policy statement for the ATF and have it posted on their website for all to see.

It would certianly save him a lot of time from having to answer all those personal requests and let him do more meaningful things like prowl industry gunshows.
Link Posted: 9/9/2007 3:31:52 PM EST
I'm pretty confident I have the information I need to make my mind up on this issue. There is a HUGE amount of misinformation floating around from people with good intentions, and an equal or greater amount of deception coming from people who want to scare us such as liberal attorneys with anti-gun agendas as well as our government.

M4madness, sorry to hear you sold your M4 with the mag extension.

Blake
Link Posted: 9/9/2007 4:54:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2007 2:03:12 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By M4Madness:
height=8
Originally Posted By Blake:
I'm pretty confident I have the information I need to make my mind up on this issue. There is a HUGE amount of misinformation floating around from people with good intentions, and an equal or greater amount of deception coming from people who want to scare us such as liberal attorneys with anti-gun agendas as well as our government.

M4madness, sorry to hear you sold your M4 with the mag extension.

Blake


I just didn't want to deal with the hassle anymore, regardless of the chances of getting caught. I have two letters addressed to me from the BATF telling me that adding a magazine extension and/or telestock to a Benelli M4 shotgun violates 922(r), so there's no denying it. hear
Link Posted: 9/22/2007 12:06:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 11:12:59 AM EST
I purchased an M1S90 from a local gunshop with an extended mag in place. SOOOOO I was sold an illegal gun?

Bomber
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 11:36:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 2:50:28 AM EST by themagikbullet]
You better bury it and send your dog to the neighbors

eta for actual info : depends on if it's pre or post '89
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:53:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 3:56:25 PM EST by sgtb]
Does anyone know if the H&K marked M1 super 90's are pre '89?

Does this law only apply to the semi auto Benellis or is the Nova and Super Nova included under this law as far as mag. extensions are concerned?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:53:47 PM EST
not sure about the hk marked ones, but ya it only applies to semi's
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:26:46 PM EST
This thread has interesting timing, I just bought a Beretta Xtrema 2 and I have been looking at the surecycle mag extensions. I just watched Tom Knapp this weekend with an extension. This is kinda fucked. Part of my interest in the gun is the mag extension.

Am I wrong here and you guys are not talking about a factory shotgun with only an added mag extension.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:43:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
All I can add to this thread that hasn't really been addressed thoroughly is the issue of a US-made magazine extension. A US-made magazine extension in and of itself is ILLEGAL to install on a NON-SPORTING Benelli shotgun imported after 1989. On the other hand, a US-made magazine extention DOES count towards the total 922(r) parts count. I don't know how many parts a Benelli M1/M4 consists of, but I'm sure that it's more than 11 (which would be the only legal way to install a US-made magazine extension on a non-sporting imported shotgun without additional US-made parts.)

You need to figure out how many parts the Benelli M1/M2 shotguns consist of, then swap in enough US-made parts from the list earlier in this thread to reduce the imported parts count down to 10 or less.


So what constitutes a sporting shotgun?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:10:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 7:11:56 PM EST by themagikbullet]

Originally Posted By fadlan:
This thread has interesting timing, I just bought a Beretta Xtrema 2 and I have been looking at the surecycle mag extensions. I just watched Tom Knapp this weekend with an extension. This is kinda fucked. Part of my interest in the gun is the mag extension.

Am I wrong here and you guys are not talking about a factory shotgun with only an added mag extension.


don't worry about it... this only applies to pistol gripped benelli's
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:22:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By themagikbullet:

Originally Posted By fadlan:
This thread has interesting timing, I just bought a Beretta Xtrema 2 and I have been looking at the surecycle mag extensions. I just watched Tom Knapp this weekend with an extension. This is kinda fucked. Part of my interest in the gun is the mag extension.

Am I wrong here and you guys are not talking about a factory shotgun with only an added mag extension.


don't worry about it... this only applies to pistol gripped benelli's


Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 2:21:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By fadlan:

Originally Posted By themagikbullet:

Originally Posted By fadlan:
This thread has interesting timing, I just bought a Beretta Xtrema 2 and I have been looking at the surecycle mag extensions. I just watched Tom Knapp this weekend with an extension. This is kinda fucked. Part of my interest in the gun is the mag extension.

Am I wrong here and you guys are not talking about a factory shotgun with only an added mag extension.


don't worry about it... this only applies to pistol gripped benelli's


Thanks.


No, it applies to any imported shotguns that ATF deems to be unsporting. The term sporting is not defined in law so ATF is left with full descretion to determine what is sporting and what is not. ATF has taken the position in a past legal opinion that any imported seim-automatic shotgun with a magazine capacity greater 5 rounds is non sporting, without regard to the wheter or not the shotgun has a pistol grip. Be aware that their opinion of sporting can change at any time.
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