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1/27/2021 11:01:57 PM
1/27/2021 12:46:26 AM
Posted: 2/28/2005 3:21:15 AM EST
I would like to, in the near future, participate in some training in the employment of the AR carbine.  However, I don't have much sense as to what basic equipment is recommended to make the most out of such classes.  I won't be rappelling out of helicopters or hiking off into the mountains for days on end, so I'm looking at this with an eye towards simplicity.  I was considering a chest rig like the Tactical Tailor MAV with a couple of mag pouches, but now I'm thinking that might be a bit overkill for my purposes.

I'd appreciate any suggestions or comments.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 3:40:11 AM EST
Here's a short list I keep handy:

Good attitude
Working firearms, spares if possible
Good mags, as many as possible, loaded before class
Serviceable mag pouches
Camelbak
Extra jugs of water to re-fill your CB
Good (the evil "N" word) food.
Good hat/cap.
Eye/ear pro
Knee/elbow pads (no jokes, please)
First Aid Kit
Cool Guy Tool (Leatherman, Gerber, etc.)
Spare essential parts for your weapons
Sunblock
Bug repellant
Hand wipes
Small notepad w/ pen
Camera (don't be a dork and take pictures of every little thing, and you could possibly need the photos later for evidence of blackmail purposes-your choice.)
Gear bag/pack to carry all this stuff in.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 3:42:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 4:06:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 8:12:19 AM EST
Thanks for the advice.  It looks like most of that stuff I can keep in a general purpose bag.  But what will I need when running drills?  Will a sturdy belt be sufficient for retaining all the items?  After 2-3 5.56 pouches, 1-2 pistol pouches, and the holstered handgun - that'll be around 5 or 6 pounds.  I'm wondering if at that point it's heavy enough that it'd be worth moving up to one of the chest rigs.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 9:21:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 9:29:37 AM EST
Best advice is to get a list from the school.
Talk to the instructor who is teaching the class.  Pick his brain and find out what he wants you to have.  Gunsite will say X Thunder Ranch will say Y.  find out what type of class it is.  Don’t take “SWAT” gear to a self-defense class.  

If you decide to go tactical go all the way.  Don’t take an IWB holster, leather belt and a drop leg pouch.  

Take all your mags and fill them before class.  If you have 20 mags take all 20.  That way you can relax during the breaks while everyone else is loading.  
A good pair of electronic earmuffs is the way to go.  
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 10:37:40 AM EST
Make sure your stuff works before you go. As a newbie, I got a new carbine, went to the local range a couple of times and shot 50-75 rounds over the course of a couple of hours...

Go to class, and after about 50 rounds in the first 10 minutes, carbine locks up tight...off the line to the back area while everyone else continues. Knocked it out with a cleaning rod and hammer.

Back on the line...10 rounds or so...locks up again. Ditto...

Every time it got hot, stuck cases...ended sending the upper back and they replaced the barrel for a bad chamber. Also had a bad batch of ammo...primers were flattened. Name brand stuff.
Wasted my time and money, and the time of the instructor and classmates.
Another let me his spare to use for the rest of the 2 day class.

Next class I showed up with 2 carbines, both broken in with a 500 rounds each minimum.  I also ended up lending my spare to another guy who's rifle died. Karma.

I also brought some spare stuff just in case- full LPK.

Small first aid kit, tylenol, chap stick, eyedrops, allergy meds,bandages, band-aids, sunburn stuff. Nothing major.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 10:44:46 AM EST
Tag, man I need some training.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 1:42:09 PM EST
I was wondering the same thing
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 1:59:40 PM EST


This is what I run for a pistol/carbine class. My first few times wearing the belt I didn't have the suspenders. It actually made my hips sore. The suspenders allowes me to loosen the belt and make it more comfortable.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 2:22:27 PM EST
tag
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 8:59:10 PM EST
That is some nice gear.  What is the mfg. if you don't mind me asking.
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 2:55:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 3:00:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 3:20:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 4:07:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 12:23:23 PM EST

Quoted:
That is some nice gear.  What is the mfg. if you don't mind me asking.



The belt, holster, and mag pouch are Special Operation Equipment (SOE). The suspenders are High Speed Gear Inc. (HSGI).
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 1:30:37 PM EST
Here's what I plan on taking with me later this year (excluding weapons, mags, light, & spare parts) in no particular order:

HSGI Wasatch with shoulder pads
BHI STRIKE M4/pistol pouch x3 (1 as a holster & 2 to weight the back of the Wasatch since I will wear without plates)
Tactial Tailor 45/9mm pistol mag pouch, most likely a triple
EGL Loppy dump pouch
Alta Superflex knee & elbow pads
Electronic muffs (Radian Pro-Amp) and plugs
Nomex pilot gloves
Source 3L hydration bladder
Boonie hat & baseball cap
Sunscreen
Oakley M-frames with keeper & spare lenses
White medical tape for fingers
LULA
Wilderness instructor belt
Multitool
Baby wipes
Extra batts for Aimpoint
Extra Surefire CR123 batts
Beta-C mag (oops, got a little carried away there...)
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 5:09:56 AM EST
Thanks 6530 for listing one of my pieces of kit

anyhow, simplicity is key.

Consider
access to magazines  (primary/secondary)
Hydro
access to small kit (loader, duck tape, GI CK rod  etc.
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 5:33:53 AM EST

Quoted:
Thanks 6530 for listing one of my pieces of kit



No problem - you make some great gear.  It was initially a toss up between the Maxpedition midsize rollypoly & the Loppy, but I decided it was better to support a board guy (and a LF guy too) so I went with the Loppy.
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 10:22:35 AM EST

Quoted:
Here's a short list I keep handy:

Good attitude
Working firearms, spares if possible
Good mags, as many as possible, loaded before class
Serviceable mag pouches
Camelbak
Extra jugs of water to re-fill your CB
Good (the evil "N" word) food.
Good hat/cap.
Eye/ear pro
Knee/elbow pads (no jokes, please)
First Aid Kit
Cool Guy Tool (Leatherman, Gerber, etc.)
Spare essential parts for your weapons
Sunblock
Bug repellant
Hand wipes
Small notepad w/ pen
Camera (don't be a dork and take pictures of every little thing, and you could possibly need the photos later for evidence of blackmail purposes-your choice.)
Gear bag/pack to carry all this stuff in.



My suggestion is to listen to this man.
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 12:56:04 PM EST

Quoted:
A lot of the guys around here have very nicely set up ARs, but as most of us are old fogey civilians we don't have much of the high speed tactical ninja nylon-honestly I doubt many of us have much use for it, except the mag carriers are a convenient way to carry mags at classes and competitions. God forbid any of us ever have to use our ARs, but I doubt it'd be much more than a mag in the gun and maybe a spare stuffed in the jacket of our carharts-I'd need 5 spare carharts to make it throuugh these classes that way

This thread started off about carbines but there are some good posts about gear.
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=226012



+1. train in whatever you want but understand as a civilian it would be pretty hard to claim self defence when you shoot someone while wearing first and second line gear. and even in the hypothetical SHTF senario you'll get alot of attention wearing it as well. that being said i always train geared up like a complete Whack job.
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 1:15:18 PM EST
Look around on line and see what similar classes tell you to bring.

e.g.
Thunder Ranch Gear List

Firearms Academy of Seattle Gear List

Blackwater Gear List


I've personally never been a fan of having a big tactical vest/LBE set up just for training.  I don't carry that around with me so I'll probably not end up fighting with it.

I've had really good luck with just 2 or 3 balde tech rifle pouches on a sturdy belt like a Wilderness belt.  Blade tech Pouches:  www.blade-tech.com/frontend?command=ProductMatrix&iProductId=46232&iSectionId=46256  With a standard belt holster and a double mag pouch for pistol mags.

rain gear/sunscreen.  snacks, water, ammo, cleaning gear, repair tools & parts.  

gloves and/or medical tape...  your figers will be hurting.


a dump pouch might be a good addition if you don't have BDU/pants with big pockets.






Link Posted: 3/3/2005 4:23:34 PM EST

Tag for my upcoming class...


Bigfeet
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 1:48:17 PM EST
I've only been to 2, 2-day carbine classes but I've learned that all the high-speed gear isn't needed unless it's for work. You really only need to carry 3 mags on your person not including the rifle. The rest of the mags can be left off the line and the instructor always gives time to retrieve them before drills. A leg pouch or Specter Gear chest pouch works best IMO. The other high cap mag chest rigs just get in the way when going prone. As a civilian, I don't think anything more is needed in the way of carrying your mags. A good pistol belt like the Wilderness 5-stitch is inexpensive and will hold you pistol and mag pouches. A good OWB Kydex holster will work just fine. A dump pouch is also a needed item.
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 6:29:24 PM EST
Clarence,


         There is a thread on selecting a carbine and gear for a Tactical Carbine course at this thread:




         I copied the information below from a response I wrote on the post above.  Use in class what you will use in real life:


I am a big fan of train with what you will carry. If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear what you will use in real life!!!

This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place. Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.

There is a reason why I recommend this. A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.


The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight.
 

              You may agree or disagree, but hopefully this will provoke some thought on the issue of gear and it's application to gunfighting.



Good luck


Take care and stay safe





Link Posted: 3/5/2005 5:40:24 AM EST

I am a big fan of train with what you will carry. If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear what you will use in real life!!!

This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place. Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.



Best advice I've seen.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 5:13:24 PM EST

Quoted:
Clarence,


         There is a thread on selecting a carbine and gear for a Tactical Carbine course at this thread:




         I copied the information below from a response I wrote on the post above.  Use in class what you will use in real life:


I am a big fan of train with what you will carry. If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear what you will use in real life!!!

This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place. Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.

There is a reason why I recommend this. A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.


The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight.
 

              You may agree or disagree, but hopefully this will provoke some thought on the issue of gear and it's application to gunfighting.



Good luck


Take care and stay safe








i completely agree with this. but i don't train to actually fight(at least not with my carbine.) and i'm probably not alone, i left the Marines almost 20 years ago but i still really enjoy to train like a Marine. So i train just to train not to fight. the senario where i would use a firearm to defend my life would more than likely be inside my home but i would prefer to use a shotgun. So i train with my handgun/shotgun for home/self defense. and if, God forbid, something comes up where i would actually need to use my carbine, and for some resason don't have time to get geared up like i train, i hope that going to my vest for a mag change when it's actually in my back pocket  doesn't get me killed.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 3:16:56 AM EST

Quoted:

i completely agree with this. but i don't train to actually fight(at least not with my carbine.) and i'm probably not alone, i left the Marines almost 20 years ago but i still really enjoy to train like a Marine. So i train just to train not to fight. the senario where i would use a firearm to defend my life would more than likely be inside my home but i would prefer to use a shotgun. So i train with my handgun/shotgun for home/self defense. and if, God forbid, something comes up where i would actually need to use my carbine, and for some resason don't have time to get geared up like i train, i hope that going to my vest for a mag change when it's actually in my back pocket  doesn't get me killed.



Hi G-Man,


            A shotgun is an awesome home defense tool.  So is an AR15.  I would choose an AR15 carbine over a handgun any day of the week to defend my life.  Remember the main reason we carry a handgun is because it's portable, and the handgun has it's place in a tactical situation, but pistol bullets poke holes, rifle bullets tear sh*t up.  Here is a good read on the AR15 as a home defense weapon.....the good info starts on page #2

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=226012&page=1


Take care and stay safe



Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:25:08 PM EST
Good thread.  I'm going to Storm Mountain in June for Carbine1, and still need to get some stuff.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:46:19 AM EST
After attending many different courses (mostly pistol), the replies here are all very helpful.

I'll add this:

Protect your hands, they WILL take a beating.

Shooting and lots of magazine loading (especially if you don't use those "wussy" pistol mag loading gizmos) is hard on the hands. The upside is, after a few days, your hands will develop calluses that will be beneficial next time.

Train with the gear you'll most likey use. I know we all look good in a SafariLand 6004 Drop Leg, but, if you normally carry your pistol on a on-the-belt holster at home, isn't that what you should be using for your training course?

The biggest pieces of advice that I can share:

1) come with an open mind (be willing to try the different methods/techniques presented). You are paying hard-earned cash for this training. Get the most from it...

2) make sure to be friendly AND make some friends. Having friends there makes the course much more enjoyable, plus, there will be extra eyes to watch you as you do the drills. This means you get more feedback/critique of what you are doing right or doing wrong. If you are coming as a group, don't shut-out others. After class, social time is better AND you can properly practice what you learned that day. An additional bonus is that some of these accquaintances will develop into lasting friendships: I met folks at SigArms back in 2001 that I go to training courses with today!

3) develop a good rapport with the instructors (do NOT be an ass kisser) and be straight forward with your comments/praise/ and most importantly: Criticism...

Be honest about the course, the material, the style of instruction, etc. The instructors need your feedback so they can be sure that the class is getting what they are teaching.

I have a good relationship with the instructors I have had and some have solicited my input on ideas for new courses and/or improving the current ones.

Have FUN!!!!
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:24:46 AM EST

Quoted:

Quoted:

i completely agree with this. but i don't train to actually fight(at least not with my carbine.) and i'm probably not alone, i left the Marines almost 20 years ago but i still really enjoy to train like a Marine. So i train just to train not to fight. the senario where i would use a firearm to defend my life would more than likely be inside my home but i would prefer to use a shotgun. So i train with my handgun/shotgun for home/self defense. and if, God forbid, something comes up where i would actually need to use my carbine, and for some resason don't have time to get geared up like i train, i hope that going to my vest for a mag change when it's actually in my back pocket  doesn't get me killed.



Hi G-Man,


            A shotgun is an awesome home defense tool.  So is an AR15.  I would choose an AR15 carbine over a handgun any day of the week to defend my life.  Remember the main reason we carry a handgun is because it's portable, and the handgun has it's place in a tactical situation, but pistol bullets poke holes, rifle bullets tear sh*t up.  Here is a good read on the AR15 as a home defense weapon.....the good info starts on page #2

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=226012&page=1


Take care and stay safe





Jeff
i would also prefer AR over handgun as well. but living in CA i keep that thing locked up at all times. if it's stolen i can never own one again(legally) in CA. i keep 2 pistols and 2 shotguns loaded around the house, the pistols are going to be used until i can get to a shotgun. also an AR might scare away the ladies if it's leaning up against my nightstand. good thread also. thanks bro
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 1:03:38 PM EST
G-MAN,


          I didn't know that about California (stolen ARs)....That sucks, I feel for you Brother.


Link Posted: 3/14/2005 1:23:29 PM EST

Quoted:
G-MAN,


          I didn't know that about California (stolen ARs)....That sucks, I feel for you Brother.





Jeff, i think i mislead you. in CA there is a very strict AWB. if you didn't own one and have it registered with the State prior to 2000 you can't own one(not even a post ban configured AW). and i only own one AR and can't buy another regardless of weather or not it's stolen. the don't punish you here for having your gun stolen(as far as i know).
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