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B&T 9mm Carbine APC9 (Page 4 of 35)
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Link Posted: 2/16/2016 11:29:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2016 11:32:03 PM EDT by MichaelHK]
The B&T rotex suppressor for the MP9/TP9 is now available in the US. I may have sent out payment for one this morning. I'll let you know how the TP9 runs suppressed with the B&T can when it's approved in a year.

My guess is that it will run well with the B&T can, but be a little on the loud side since too much back pressure seems to be a problem with the TP9. This is just speculation on my part though.
Link Posted: 2/16/2016 11:33:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
The B&T rotex suppressor for the MP9/TP9 is now available in the US. I may have sent out payment for one this morning. I'll let you know how the TP9 runs suppressed with the B&T can when it's approved in a year.

My guess is that it will run well with the B&T can, but be a little on the loud side since too much back pressure seems to be a problem with the TP9. This is just speculation on my part though.
View Quote


Cost? They are ready for form 3?
Link Posted: 2/16/2016 11:40:34 PM EDT
I love mine. Its quality is better than the rest of my guns combined. Very expensive but it's worth it.

APC9 SBR 028
by TX 556Mav, on Flickr
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 12:05:38 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 59chevy:
I love mine. Its quality is better than the rest of my guns combined. Very expensive but it's worth it.
<a href="https://flic.kr/p/D6v4zF" target="_blank">https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1465/24347453189_3f3cc2d801_c.jpg</a>
APC9 SBR 028
by TX 556Mav, on Flickr
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Any issues running suppressed with the octane? Reliability with 115/124/147?

Thank you
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 12:17:38 AM EDT
Interesting, seems we are getting 2 very different stories about these guns. Either way I still want to see more of the APC and the TP9.

Link Posted: 2/17/2016 12:18:41 AM EDT
Is that a DSA gun or a brand new import?
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 7:04:45 AM EDT
It's one of the new imports. I had a couple of malfunctions when i first got it but after I put a shockwave brace and now the factory stock on it and was able to support it a little bit more I've had zero issues with.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 8:39:33 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By WillysJeep:


Cost? They are ready for form 3?
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Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
The B&T rotex suppressor for the MP9/TP9 is now available in the US. I may have sent out payment for one this morning. I'll let you know how the TP9 runs suppressed with the B&T can when it's approved in a year.

My guess is that it will run well with the B&T can, but be a little on the loud side since too much back pressure seems to be a problem with the TP9. This is just speculation on my part though.


Cost? They are ready for form 3?


Yes. Check out Michael's Machines over on hkpro. Cost is on par with other B&T products, $1100.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 8:52:32 AM EDT
Not sure if I'm a big fan of some Allen screws holding the feed ramp on there.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 10:21:32 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MichaelHK:


Yes. Check out Michael's Machines over on hkpro. Cost is on par with other B&T products, $1100.
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Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
The B&T rotex suppressor for the MP9/TP9 is now available in the US. I may have sent out payment for one this morning. I'll let you know how the TP9 runs suppressed with the B&T can when it's approved in a year.

My guess is that it will run well with the B&T can, but be a little on the loud side since too much back pressure seems to be a problem with the TP9. This is just speculation on my part though.


Cost? They are ready for form 3?


Yes. Check out Michael's Machines over on hkpro. Cost is on par with other B&T products, $1100.


Thanks. Im curious how the TP9 suppresses with the B&T suppressor and if they are ammo sensitive.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 10:50:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2016 10:52:35 AM EDT by HALFNATTYGAINZ]
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Originally Posted By 59chevy:
It's one of the new imports. I had a couple of malfunctions when i first got it but after I put a shockwave brace and now the factory stock on it and was able to support it a little bit more I've had zero issues with.
View Quote

Not to be an ass, but this is quality to you? I can understand a hiccup with the first mag on a brand new gun but if the stock is effecting reliability that's no bueno IMO. Perhaps others will disagree.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 10:50:56 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MichaelHK:


Yes. Check out Michael's Machines over on hkpro. Cost is on par with other B&T products, $1100.
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Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
The B&T rotex suppressor for the MP9/TP9 is now available in the US. I may have sent out payment for one this morning. I'll let you know how the TP9 runs suppressed with the B&T can when it's approved in a year.

My guess is that it will run well with the B&T can, but be a little on the loud side since too much back pressure seems to be a problem with the TP9. This is just speculation on my part though.


Cost? They are ready for form 3?


Yes. Check out Michael's Machines over on hkpro. Cost is on par with other B&T products, $1100.


Can this suppressor be used on other guns? I know there was on odd thread pitch at one point.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 12:46:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:


Can this suppressor be used on other guns? I know there was on odd thread pitch at one point.
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Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
The B&T rotex suppressor for the MP9/TP9 is now available in the US. I may have sent out payment for one this morning. I'll let you know how the TP9 runs suppressed with the B&T can when it's approved in a year.

My guess is that it will run well with the B&T can, but be a little on the loud side since too much back pressure seems to be a problem with the TP9. This is just speculation on my part though.


Cost? They are ready for form 3?


Yes. Check out Michael's Machines over on hkpro. Cost is on par with other B&T products, $1100.


Can this suppressor be used on other guns? I know there was on odd thread pitch at one point.


No, the TP9 uses a proprietary 3-lug mount.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 2:05:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2016 2:30:46 PM EDT by HALFNATTYGAINZ]
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Originally Posted By MichaelHK:

No, the TP9 uses a proprietary 3-lug mount.
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Ugh....
I saw the TP9 and APC and I was like F&^$ YEAH!!!
TP9 was the civi legal MP7 everyone was asking for and in a common caliber.
Then came the price... okay its expensive but it's quality and its a nice gun.
Then came the reports of reliability..... okay but maybe those were just duds, or the older DSA guns.
Then came details of the action.....okay its different but maybe they can polish out the duds.
Then came the suppression details.... okay i gotta spend over a grand on a suppressor I can only use on this gun?


As of now, things are not looking good. BUT..
There's hope. 1 there's a limited number of reports and reviews on this gun. 2. They are brand new to the market. 3. They do have some of their guns in service. If they can pass military trials, they can probably make it reliable enough for me. 4. I'm not sure of the design details but if a company is smart they usually listen to the market. Perhaps they will make their suppressors have a interchangeable attachment system that will allow for use on other guns too.

BUT I DON'T REALLY KNOW! Seriously I haven't shot one or handled one, just going off the info I've seen online.

Link Posted: 2/17/2016 5:07:26 PM EDT
It seems like you're jumping back and forth between the TP9 and the APC9. The MP9/TP9 was designed to use the B&T suppressor. I've never read of reliablilty issues unsuppressed, and issues when running a different can seemed to be due to using a lower volume suppressor. With that said I wouldn't buy a TP9/rotex suppressor if they were my first or second sbr/suppressor, but when you have enough sbrs and suppressors to cover your bases having a dedicated system makes more sense.

If you would like an sbr/suppressor combo that can work with other 9mm hosts maybe the apc9 would be a better fit. I like the platform, but am turned off by hearing that it no longer has AR trigger group compatibility. That was a big draw for me. There are plenty of other known 9mm PCCs available if B&T falls short for you. My scorpion is a good (not as good as an mp5 for sound) suppressor host for far less money.

Does anyone know how the stock trigger on the APC9 is?
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 5:19:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
It seems like you're jumping back and forth between the TP9 and the APC9. The MP9/TP9 was designed to use the B&T suppressor. I've never read of reliablilty issues unsuppressed, and issues when running a different can seemed to be due to using a lower volume suppressor. With that said I wouldn't buy a TP9/rotex suppressor if they were my first or second sbr/suppressor, but when you have enough sbrs and suppressors to cover your bases having a dedicated system makes more sense.

If you would like an sbr/suppressor combo that can work with other 9mm hosts maybe the apc9 would be a better fit. I like the platform, but am turned off by hearing that it no longer has AR trigger group compatibility. That was a big draw for me. There are plenty of other known 9mm PCCs available if B&T falls short for you. My scorpion is a good (not as good as an mp5 for sound) suppressor host for far less money.

Does anyone know how the stock trigger on the APC9 is?
View Quote


It's definitely not that. I ran an Mk9k and it wasn't even remotely enough, way too high blowback / gas in face. I think it's the that Rotex can must have a .5" bore and 3 baffles. My guess, is it's a mid to high 130-s can. Internal / external size of the can has got to be similar to the Mk9k, so it's not just volume.

As to the Scorpion... It's impossible to beat. $20 mags, parts are available, a developing aftermarket, I'm glad I have an MP5 fullsize, but also glad I sold my K and replaced it with the Scorpion. It's a SOLID gun.

On the APC9 trigger... Felt entirely like milspec AR to me. I asked the B&T rep why it wasn't an AR trigger and he dodged the question. Basically came around to that they would have had to change the bolt/carrier, and it wasn't a feature that they felt they "needed". Quite a few features were dropped from the APC9 actually... They used to have a gas system that allowed sort of porting of the ammo (I don't know how it worked) for suppressed use... But dropped that too.

I got the feeling that B&T knew the TP9/MP9 wasn't versatile, so they made their own gun in their own image, then in order to get anyone to buy it had to cost cut a lot of stuff out. Leaving an ironically still very expensive extruded aluminum receiver and rail blowback gun. If I still owned my TP9, I'd probably be interested in one because of the mag commonality.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 5:19:45 PM EDT
I have read the stock APC9 trigger is very good.

My hesitation on the APC9 is in the end it is a blowback 9mm. I can't see how there would be a ton of difference between it and the Scorpion or a 9mm AR with tuned buffer/spring in terms of felt recoil and feel. Since all would be use semi auto.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 5:21:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2016 5:21:42 PM EDT by new21022]
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Originally Posted By MichaelHK:
It seems like you're jumping back and forth between the TP9 and the APC9. The MP9/TP9 was designed to use the B&T suppressor. I've never read of reliablilty issues unsuppressed, and issues when running a different can seemed to be due to using a lower volume suppressor. With that said I wouldn't buy a TP9/rotex suppressor if they were my first or second sbr/suppressor, but when you have enough sbrs and suppressors to cover your bases having a dedicated system makes more sense.

If you would like an sbr/suppressor combo that can work with other 9mm hosts maybe the apc9 would be a better fit. I like the platform, but am turned off by hearing that it no longer has AR trigger group compatibility. That was a big draw for me. There are plenty of other known 9mm PCCs available if B&T falls short for you. My scorpion is a good (not as good as an mp5 for sound) suppressor host for far less money.

Does anyone know how the stock trigger on the APC9 is?
View Quote


It's definitely not that. I ran an Mk9k and it wasn't even remotely enough, also an Osprey45, way too high blowback / gas in face. I think it's the that Rotex can must have a .5" bore and 3 baffles. My guess, is it's a mid to high 130-s can. Internal / external size of the can has got to be similar to the Mk9k, so it's not just volume.

As to the Scorpion... It's impossible to beat. $20 mags, parts are available, a developing aftermarket, I'm glad I have an MP5 fullsize, but also glad I sold my K and replaced it with the Scorpion. It's a SOLID gun.

On the APC9 trigger... Felt entirely like milspec AR to me, not better or worse than a new Colt 6920. I asked the B&T rep why it wasn't an AR trigger and he dodged the question. Basically came around to that they would have had to change the bolt/carrier, and it wasn't a feature that they felt they "needed". Quite a few features were dropped from the APC9 actually... They used to have a gas system that allowed sort of porting of the ammo (I don't know how it worked) for suppressed use... But dropped that too.

I got the feeling that B&T knew the TP9/MP9 wasn't versatile, so they made their own gun in their own image, then in order to get anyone to buy it had to cost cut a lot of stuff out. Leaving an ironically still very expensive extruded aluminum receiver and rail blowback gun. If I still owned my TP9, I'd probably be interested in one because of the mag commonality.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 5:25:37 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
I have read the stock APC9 trigger is very good.

My hesitation on the APC9 is in the end it is a blowback 9mm. I can't see how there would be a ton of difference between it and the Scorpion or a 9mm AR with tuned buffer/spring in terms of felt recoil and feel. Since all would be use semi auto.
View Quote


Compared to the Scorpion, their hydrolic buffer MIGHT help. Might make no functional difference at all. Hard to say. It wouldn't be night and day. Marginal if anything. There just isn't a lot you can do with simple blowback guns.

Compared to 9mm AR, I'm fairly sure it's better. It had some serious weight to it in person, so I suspect the bolt is heavier than AR 9mm, probably pretty close to Evo3 or UMP.

You have to keep coming back to that "well, is it worth 2-3x Scorpions"? At least I do.
Link Posted: 2/17/2016 6:21:10 PM EDT
Thanks for the info on the APC9 trigger. I had also read that it had a "match" trigger, but was skeptical of the review.

As far as the TP9 goes I think sometimes we buy guns to enjoy shooting them. I don't like a different manual of arms for home defense or for shooting competitions, but after a while shooting AR-esque guns gets boring. I like shooting my scorpion because it isn't an AR, and it's fun to shoot something different. This is where I view the TP9. Extremely small with no real practical use for myself aside from it being something different and fun to shoot. I don't expect it to be mp5 quiet as a host, but then again I really don't need it to be since I already have a clone. I guess my point is that it's a niche weapon and if it fits an itch that you're looking to scratch then go for it. It's not very versatile and it wouldn't be my first SBR project, but that doesn't mean I'm not looking forward to filing a form 1 when it arrives. BTW, I also considered an UZI pro for a small 9mm PCC, but I have always wanted a TP9 so I went for it. I didn't justify the purchase by thinking it was a better host or worth the money against a scorpion, but if this were my primary PCC I would have looked at it differently.
Link Posted: 2/19/2016 10:06:58 AM EDT
Well, I decided it'd be worth trying! Got an APC9 on the way to me now. Anyone know where these alternate style buttstocks are coming from? The distributors and part companies I've seen only carry the UMP-style folder.
Link Posted: 2/20/2016 6:24:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:
Well, I decided it'd be worth trying! Got an APC9 on the way to me now. Anyone know where these alternate style buttstocks are coming from? The distributors and part companies I've seen only carry the UMP-style folder.
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I'm looking forward to updates.
Link Posted: 2/21/2016 9:40:31 AM EDT
Anyone that has used a SBR version, does the safety selector on the right side dig into your finger when set on fire?

Thanks
Link Posted: 2/21/2016 10:48:05 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:
Well, I decided it'd be worth trying! Got an APC9 on the way to me now. Anyone know where these alternate style buttstocks are coming from? The distributors and part companies I've seen only carry the UMP-style folder.
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Where did you find one in stock?
Link Posted: 2/22/2016 2:51:13 PM EDT
It will be interesting to see the APC vs LWRC's PDW when they both are readily available.
Link Posted: 2/22/2016 8:45:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
It will be interesting to see the APC vs LWRC's PDW when they both are readily available.
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Interestingly... and this could be WILDLY wrong... But the last I heard about the LWRC subgun is that it used a rotating barrel (ala TP9) and that has me very worried for it's chances.

Why none of the AR people just make a HK roller lock action for an AR, using the MP5 bolt and locking piece... I have no idea.
Link Posted: 2/22/2016 10:03:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By new21022:


Interestingly... and this could be WILDLY wrong... But the last I heard about the LWRC subgun is that it used a rotating barrel (ala TP9) and that has me very worried for it's chances.

Why none of the AR people just make a HK roller lock action for an AR, using the MP5 bolt and locking piece... I have no idea.
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Originally Posted By new21022:
Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
It will be interesting to see the APC vs LWRC's PDW when they both are readily available.


Interestingly... and this could be WILDLY wrong... But the last I heard about the LWRC subgun is that it used a rotating barrel (ala TP9) and that has me very worried for it's chances.

Why none of the AR people just make a HK roller lock action for an AR, using the MP5 bolt and locking piece... I have no idea.


RIGHT?!
Link Posted: 2/23/2016 10:47:03 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By eternal24k:


RIGHT?!
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Originally Posted By eternal24k:
Originally Posted By new21022:
Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
It will be interesting to see the APC vs LWRC's PDW when they both are readily available.


Interestingly... and this could be WILDLY wrong... But the last I heard about the LWRC subgun is that it used a rotating barrel (ala TP9) and that has me very worried for it's chances.

Why none of the AR people just make a HK roller lock action for an AR, using the MP5 bolt and locking piece... I have no idea.


RIGHT?!

There was something in the works that used a MP5 magazine but with a specialized AR lower. I'm not sure of the upper receiver workings but perhaps someone else might know more.
Link Posted: 2/23/2016 11:36:13 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:

There was something in the works that used a MP5 magazine but with a specialized AR lower. I'm not sure of the upper receiver workings but perhaps someone else might know more.
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Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
Originally Posted By eternal24k:
Originally Posted By new21022:
Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
It will be interesting to see the APC vs LWRC's PDW when they both are readily available.


Interestingly... and this could be WILDLY wrong... But the last I heard about the LWRC subgun is that it used a rotating barrel (ala TP9) and that has me very worried for it's chances.

Why none of the AR people just make a HK roller lock action for an AR, using the MP5 bolt and locking piece... I have no idea.


RIGHT?!

There was something in the works that used a MP5 magazine but with a specialized AR lower. I'm not sure of the upper receiver workings but perhaps someone else might know more.

Quarter circle 10 had said they would make an ar15 9mm pistol that uses mp5 mags and it has a buffer tube so I would lean on it being a direct blow back.
Link Posted: 2/24/2016 12:32:45 PM EDT
Well my APC9 arrived yesterday! I'll put up some more words and some pics when I've spent a little time with it, but initial impressions:

+ This thing is extremely nicely put together. It's gorgeous and everything is so tight.
+ The controls are nicely laid out. Feels familiar and intuitive.
+ The grip is grippy. In pistol form, almost too much so, since the weight of the gun pulls your hand across it. As an SBR this will be a total non-issue.
+ The rails are actually not uncomfortable. I remember the Evo's rails being sharp and pretty awful to hold, but these are more or less dehorned. I put some rail covers on it and actually took them back off because they're pretty much fine.
+ The trigger is extremely great for a subgun. Actually, it's a good trigger, full stop. Light pull, crisp break, short and positive reset. I'll put a scale to it later. It's not perfect, though: small bit of takeup before the break. We're nitpicking, though, because it absolutely beats the Evo, MPX, and Zenith MP5 triggers (the other guns I was considering). I have a milspec AR-15 FCG and a Geissele that I'll test to see if they fit in the APC9, but I've been told they won't work. Worth a shot, though.

- The safety is stiff. I can disengage without issue, but engaging the safety takes some work and shifting from a non firing grip. Not sure if that's because it's new or its spring is heavy; we'll see when I take it apart.
- The CH is a little small. Again, this is more of a pistol vs SBR issue: with a stock to brace the gun, it won't be a problem, but as a pistol, there's not a ton of purchase.
- There's a rough plastic mold line on the underside of 1/2 of the pistol grip. This is all I could find for fit/finish issues on the whole gun, but it is there.
- Speaking of the pistol grip, its storage is tough to open. Not worth using regularly, but maybe for storing SBR paperwork?
Link Posted: 2/24/2016 12:43:17 PM EDT
Thanks for the initial thoughts! Does the right side safety dig into your trigger finger when set on "fire"? Common complaint with scorpion and looks like it may be same with the APC.
Link Posted: 2/24/2016 12:46:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2016 12:48:58 PM EDT by HALFNATTYGAINZ]
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:
Well my APC9 arrived yesterday! I'll put up some more words and some pics when I've spent a little time with it, but initial impressions:

+ This thing is extremely nicely put together. It's gorgeous and everything is so tight.
+ The controls are nicely laid out. Feels familiar and intuitive.
+ The grip is grippy. In pistol form, almost too much so, since the weight of the gun pulls your hand across it. As an SBR this will be a total non-issue.
+ The rails are actually not uncomfortable. I remember the Evo's rails being sharp and pretty awful to hold, but these are more or less dehorned. I put some rail covers on it and actually took them back off because they're pretty much fine.
+ The trigger is extremely great for a subgun. Actually, it's a good trigger, full stop. Light pull, crisp break, short and positive reset. I'll put a scale to it later. It's not perfect, though: small bit of takeup before the break. We're nitpicking, though, because it absolutely beats the Evo, MPX, and Zenith MP5 triggers (the other guns I was considering). I have a milspec AR-15 FCG and a Geissele that I'll test to see if they fit in the APC9, but I've been told they won't work. Worth a shot, though.

- The safety is stiff. I can disengage without issue, but engaging the safety takes some work and shifting from a non firing grip. Not sure if that's because it's new or its spring is heavy; we'll see when I take it apart.
- The CH is a little small. Again, this is more of a pistol vs SBR issue: with a stock to brace the gun, it won't be a problem, but as a pistol, there's not a ton of purchase.
- There's a rough plastic mold line on the underside of 1/2 of the pistol grip. This is all I could find for fit/finish issues on the whole gun, but it is there.
- Speaking of the pistol grip, its storage is tough to open. Not worth using regularly, but maybe for storing SBR paperwork?
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Very nice. Looking forward to a range report. How much did this run you and where were you able to find it? Also if you were able to it would be very nice if you could see if a AR trigger fits in it. I know there was some talk of if it will or not, I would like to know for certain with the latest model.
Link Posted: 2/24/2016 1:05:54 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Thanks for the initial thoughts! Does the right side safety dig into your trigger finger when set on "fire"? Common complaint with scorpion and looks like it may be same with the APC.
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Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Thanks for the initial thoughts! Does the right side safety dig into your trigger finger when set on "fire"? Common complaint with scorpion and looks like it may be same with the APC.

It's kind of teetering right on the edge of that being annoying and it not. It's not egregious, so I'm leaving it alone because as an SBR it will be farther out of the way.

Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
Very nice. Looking forward to a range report. How much did this run you and where were you able to find it? Also if you were able to it would be very nice if you could see if a AR trigger fits in it. I know there was some talk of if it will or not, I would like to know for certain with the latest model.

I paid slightly sub-$2k from a non-arfcom B&T dealer who is now sold out and waiting on more. And yeah, don't worry, I'll test fit both triggers. I've heard both ways, both that AR FCGs work fine with this run and that they don't, but I haven't yet seen pics or anything.
Link Posted: 2/24/2016 1:19:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:

It's kind of teetering right on the edge of that being annoying and it not. It's not egregious, so I'm leaving it alone because as an SBR it will be farther out of the way.


I paid slightly sub-$2k from a non-arfcom B&T dealer who is now sold out and waiting on more. And yeah, don't worry, I'll test fit both triggers. I've heard both ways, both that AR FCGs work fine with this run and that they don't, but I haven't yet seen pics or anything.
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:
Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Thanks for the initial thoughts! Does the right side safety dig into your trigger finger when set on "fire"? Common complaint with scorpion and looks like it may be same with the APC.

It's kind of teetering right on the edge of that being annoying and it not. It's not egregious, so I'm leaving it alone because as an SBR it will be farther out of the way.

Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
Very nice. Looking forward to a range report. How much did this run you and where were you able to find it? Also if you were able to it would be very nice if you could see if a AR trigger fits in it. I know there was some talk of if it will or not, I would like to know for certain with the latest model.

I paid slightly sub-$2k from a non-arfcom B&T dealer who is now sold out and waiting on more. And yeah, don't worry, I'll test fit both triggers. I've heard both ways, both that AR FCGs work fine with this run and that they don't, but I haven't yet seen pics or anything.

Link Posted: 2/24/2016 9:12:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:

It's kind of teetering right on the edge of that being annoying and it not. It's not egregious, so I'm leaving it alone because as an SBR it will be farther out of the way.


I paid slightly sub-$2k from a non-arfcom B&T dealer who is now sold out and waiting on more. And yeah, don't worry, I'll test fit both triggers. I've heard both ways, both that AR FCGs work fine with this run and that they don't, but I haven't yet seen pics or anything.
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:
Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Thanks for the initial thoughts! Does the right side safety dig into your trigger finger when set on "fire"? Common complaint with scorpion and looks like it may be same with the APC.

It's kind of teetering right on the edge of that being annoying and it not. It's not egregious, so I'm leaving it alone because as an SBR it will be farther out of the way.

Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
Very nice. Looking forward to a range report. How much did this run you and where were you able to find it? Also if you were able to it would be very nice if you could see if a AR trigger fits in it. I know there was some talk of if it will or not, I would like to know for certain with the latest model.

I paid slightly sub-$2k from a non-arfcom B&T dealer who is now sold out and waiting on more. And yeah, don't worry, I'll test fit both triggers. I've heard both ways, both that AR FCGs work fine with this run and that they don't, but I haven't yet seen pics or anything.


Thanks. Look forward to photos and further thoughts.
Link Posted: 2/26/2016 11:52:43 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:

It's kind of teetering right on the edge of that being annoying and it not. It's not egregious, so I'm leaving it alone because as an SBR it will be farther out of the way.


I paid slightly sub-$2k from a non-arfcom B&T dealer who is now sold out and waiting on more. And yeah, don't worry, I'll test fit both triggers. I've heard both ways, both that AR FCGs work fine with this run and that they don't, but I haven't yet seen pics or anything.
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:
Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Thanks for the initial thoughts! Does the right side safety dig into your trigger finger when set on "fire"? Common complaint with scorpion and looks like it may be same with the APC.

It's kind of teetering right on the edge of that being annoying and it not. It's not egregious, so I'm leaving it alone because as an SBR it will be farther out of the way.

Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
Very nice. Looking forward to a range report. How much did this run you and where were you able to find it? Also if you were able to it would be very nice if you could see if a AR trigger fits in it. I know there was some talk of if it will or not, I would like to know for certain with the latest model.

I paid slightly sub-$2k from a non-arfcom B&T dealer who is now sold out and waiting on more. And yeah, don't worry, I'll test fit both triggers. I've heard both ways, both that AR FCGs work fine with this run and that they don't, but I haven't yet seen pics or anything.


B&T engineer at SHOT explained to me that they do not take an unmodified AR trigger.

Only the early news articles said it did. It was an early design consideration that was removed, just like their barrel porting system for suppressors. I personally think they messed up, but he explained to their market (Europe) taking an AR trigger just wasn't important to the end users (European police I guess?)

Link Posted: 2/26/2016 7:43:46 PM EDT
From an APC45 owner stateside....ALG trigger group works. Geisselle triggers do not
Link Posted: 2/26/2016 7:49:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By SperlingPE:
From an APC45 owner stateside....ALG trigger group works. Geisselle triggers do not
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How is reliability? Any idea if their CS is any good?
Link Posted: 2/27/2016 1:09:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2016 3:23:15 PM EDT by Kristofer_G]
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Originally Posted By eternal24k:


RIGHT?!
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Originally Posted By eternal24k:
Originally Posted By new21022:
Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
It will be interesting to see the APC vs LWRC's PDW when they both are readily available.


Interestingly... and this could be WILDLY wrong... But the last I heard about the LWRC subgun is that it used a rotating barrel (ala TP9) and that has me very worried for it's chances.

Why none of the AR people just make a HK roller lock action for an AR, using the MP5 bolt and locking piece... I have no idea.


RIGHT?!


IV8888 SHOT 2016 video for the LWRC SMG 45 shows a recoiling barrel, but not a rotating one.

https://youtu.be/jEWBlWgjWWk?t=106

At least one MP5 AR15 upper has been done.

A gentleman on a home gun building site made himself a "MP5 upper" for his M16; which retained the roller delayed operation of the MP5.



Link Posted: 2/27/2016 2:10:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By WillysJeep:


How is reliability? Any idea if their CS is any good?
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Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Originally Posted By SperlingPE:
From an APC45 owner stateside....ALG trigger group works. Geisselle triggers do not


How is reliability? Any idea if their CS is any good?



Ok, good question... But let's take a full step backwards here.

If an ALG AR-15 trigger works in the APC9... But a Gieselle AR-15 does not... What does that tell you!?

That AT BEST that ALG is on the ragged edge of "working".


B&T Engineers told me it was not an AR-15 trigger they used, they had to change it for some unknown to me reason. While I like the idea of making it work - I don't think they would have just made a change for no reason. I'd consider this a dead end personally.
Link Posted: 2/27/2016 3:42:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2016 3:43:57 PM EDT by SperlingPE]
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Originally Posted By new21022:



Ok, good question... But let's take a full step backwards here.

If an ALG AR-15 trigger works in the APC9... But a Gieselle AR-15 does not... What does that tell you!?

That AT BEST that ALG is on the ragged edge of "working".


B&T Engineers told me it was not an AR-15 trigger they used, they had to change it for some unknown to me reason. While I like the idea of making it work - I don't think they would have just made a change for no reason. I'd consider this a dead end personally.
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Originally Posted By new21022:
Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Originally Posted By SperlingPE:
From an APC45 owner stateside....ALG trigger group works. Geisselle triggers do not


How is reliability? Any idea if their CS is any good?



Ok, good question... But let's take a full step backwards here.

If an ALG AR-15 trigger works in the APC9... But a Gieselle AR-15 does not... What does that tell you!?

That AT BEST that ALG is on the ragged edge of "working".


B&T Engineers told me it was not an AR-15 trigger they used, they had to change it for some unknown to me reason. While I like the idea of making it work - I don't think they would have just made a change for no reason. I'd consider this a dead end personally.


I am not the stateside owner. I was in conversation with the gentleman on another site.
He has purchased an APC45 (not 9) and has replaced the trigger parts with ALG parts.
He had previously tried Geiselle parts and found those to be "trouble-some".
Maybe the G parts were on the "raggede edge".
I have spoken with the US distributor. AR15 trigger parts can be swapped for the factory parts.
Link Posted: 3/2/2016 4:39:11 PM EDT
I have the APC9 and ran 300rds of tula 9mm through it this weekend with out any issue at all. Waiting on my tax stamp to put the stock on. Its a great gun and quality is unmatched!! if your on the fence just buy it you wont be sorry. Its a blast to shoot.
Link Posted: 3/2/2016 5:14:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By gunman9:
I have the APC9 and ran 300rds of tula 9mm through it this weekend with out any issue at all. Waiting on my tax stamp to put the stock on. Its a great gun and quality is unmatched!! if your on the fence just buy it you wont be sorry. Its a blast to shoot.
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Any suppressed? How is the trigger? Also how is the upper/lower fit?
Link Posted: 3/3/2016 12:21:51 AM EDT
The trigger on mine breaks at approx. 4 lbs, 10 oz with some takeup and an extremely positive reset. It's a pretty dang nice factory trigger. My upper/lower fit is very tight - like, after the rear takedown pin is driven out, the lower doesn't just swing away. You need to give it a good budge to separate them.
Link Posted: 3/3/2016 8:12:21 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:
The trigger on mine breaks at approx. 4 lbs, 10 oz with some takeup and an extremely positive reset. It's a pretty dang nice factory trigger. My upper/lower fit is very tight - like, after the rear takedown pin is driven out, the lower doesn't just swing away. You need to give it a good budge to separate them.
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Thanks. Was hoping to hear more of your thoughts on the apc9 after range use.
Link Posted: 3/3/2016 9:44:17 AM EDT
It'll be a minute on that! Just finished moving so my time and money have been low and now I'm playing catch-up. I probably won't be at the range for a week or two, sorry! Happy to answer any more questions about the gun itself in the meantime, though.
Link Posted: 3/3/2016 5:23:23 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By WillysJeep:


Thanks. Was hoping to hear more of your thoughts on the apc9 after range use.
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Originally Posted By WillysJeep:
Originally Posted By Carbohydrates:
The trigger on mine breaks at approx. 4 lbs, 10 oz with some takeup and an extremely positive reset. It's a pretty dang nice factory trigger. My upper/lower fit is very tight - like, after the rear takedown pin is driven out, the lower doesn't just swing away. You need to give it a good budge to separate them.


Thanks. Was hoping to hear more of your thoughts on the apc9 after range use.


Shooting suppressed is good. No blow back in the face, light recoil, factory sights where just a tad high at 25 yards. Easily fixed since the built in fold up sights are adjustable. Trigger is great for a factory trigger. The APC9 does take mil spec AR triggers so there are plenty of options out there if you want to go that route. B&T makes the folding stocks for the MP5. Just picked up my stock from the dealer. Waiting on my Form 1 to come back and it will be going back on. Its very manageable as a pistol but will really shine as an SBR. At 25 yards I left a giant hole in the center of the target after sighting in. Accuracy is definitely not an issue with the APC9. I have yet to find a thing I dislike about the pistol. It uses captured take down pins, rear plate is already set up for a pistol buffer tube and can be removed and a factory stock put on when SBR and requires moving one bolt. The action is very smooth, and the charging handle is good but I prefer a larger charging handle with greater area. The quality of machining is exceptional. The other firearms i own that compare are the Scar-H and the CZ 805 Bren, even then the APC9 is superior. It comes stock with a 3 lug for suppressor use which is a plus for pistol suppressors.

For the money and the quality of weapon and craftsmanship that you are receiving I would not hesitate to purchase another one (I plan to get the APC45). The CZ Scorpion feels like a bunch of terrorist in a cave in the desert built it compared to the APC9. And i hate to say that be cause the build quality on my CZ75 and CZ 805 Bren is exceptional.
Link Posted: 3/3/2016 5:25:45 PM EDT
I really would like to have an APC9 in sbr form, but don't have any NFA items and would be starting from scratch. I guess I'm a little intimidated by the effort involved. However, if B&T imported the APC9-P in pistol version, I'd just through on the fake three lug can as a permanent barrel extension and use it as a carbine.
Link Posted: 3/4/2016 1:36:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By gunman9:
The APC9 does take mil spec AR triggers so there are plenty of options out there if you want to go that route.
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Interesting, because the B&T engineers say it does not. And in this thread there is a report of a Gieselle not working - which means AR-15 triggers do not work - although maybe some specific triggers do - it means it out-of-spec for the AR-15 platform.

At SHOT it was explained to be my a Swiss B&T engineer that was an intial design idea but they had to walk back from it. I don't know how modified the trigger is but he said an AR-15 trigger was NOT compatible. It may appear work - but I would definitely contact B&T before just tossing one it.

Link Posted: 3/4/2016 2:53:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By new21022:


Interesting, because the B&T engineers say it does not. And in this thread there is a report of a Gieselle not working - which means AR-15 triggers do not work - although maybe some specific triggers do - it means it out-of-spec for the AR-15 platform.

At SHOT it was explained to be my a Swiss B&T engineer that was an intial design idea but they had to walk back from it. I don't know how modified the trigger is but he said an AR-15 trigger was NOT compatible. It may appear work - but I would definitely contact B&T before just tossing one it.

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Originally Posted By new21022:
Originally Posted By gunman9:
The APC9 does take mil spec AR triggers so there are plenty of options out there if you want to go that route.


Interesting, because the B&T engineers say it does not. And in this thread there is a report of a Gieselle not working - which means AR-15 triggers do not work - although maybe some specific triggers do - it means it out-of-spec for the AR-15 platform.

At SHOT it was explained to be my a Swiss B&T engineer that was an intial design idea but they had to walk back from it. I don't know how modified the trigger is but he said an AR-15 trigger was NOT compatible. It may appear work - but I would definitely contact B&T before just tossing one it.



I was told by B&T last week that standard AR FCG would fit but "advanced" ones may require some trimming of material from hammer. FWIW.
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B&T 9mm Carbine APC9 (Page 4 of 35)
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