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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 6/15/2002 9:25:53 AM EDT
1. What states mandate that a spent shell be included with a new handgun?
2. Is there any manufacturer that includes a spent shell with every handgun no matter what state they are sold in? If there is, I definately want that shell given to me when I make a purchase.
This whole business is kind of scary.

3. By the way, who actually does the firing to get the case and who takes the brass case out of the box and sends it to the state police?

Link Posted: 6/15/2002 10:33:59 AM EDT
IIRC, it is MD & Mass.

Yes, several mfgrs include shell cases now including Glock & others. I see some gun cases now marked "Not for sale in MD" as they don't have the case inside.

The actual firing is done at the factory & the case is removed by the dealer at the time of purchase. I would assume it is also the dealer who sends the case to the state !@#$%^&* gun police.

What's kinda funny is all one has to do is change the extractor and/or ejector on a semi & the whole thing is moot. Of course as soon as some bureaucrat has this bit of logic pointed out to them, they'll no doubt make another law banning this change regardless of reason. Or only allowing the official state police gestapo to change it for you?

What's also funny is the revolvers who have this case included. Last time I checked, revolvers don't leave cases at the crime scene. Has this changed? >gg<
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 10:54:38 AM EDT
seems like this would not comply with "chain of evidence" rules...
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 11:10:54 AM EDT
I could be wrong but I thought the govt wanted a fired bullet and that the case was left over to let buyer know that's what happened. any thoughts??
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 11:20:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 6:43:11 PM EDT
I was told by the guy I got my glock from, the shell stays with him. If for some reason my gun is stolen or used in a crime he gives it to the propr authorties. He has bins full of shells.
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 7:03:02 PM EDT
mbsk01, they want the fired caseing. The ballistic fingerprint wanted is from the case head. When you fire a round, the casehead rams against the breech face leaving essentially what are tool marks. Each breech face is unique. Getting usable ballistic information from a bullet is a different story. Most modern bullets are so deformed it is difficult to impossible to get positive identification from comparison. Also guns with hammer forged barrels, like Glocks, are so uniform that you can't tell one from another. This has been a problem in mutiple officer shootings. Locally, it was the same with Sig P229's as well.
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 7:19:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 2:33:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:
IIRC, it is MD & Mass.



Mass isn't one of them... although that hasn't stopped them from trying.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 3:12:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stg44:
mbsk01, they want the fired caseing. The ballistic fingerprint wanted is from the case head. When you fire a round, the casehead rams against the breech face leaving essentially what are tool marks. Each breech face is unique. Getting usable ballistic information from a bullet is a different story. Most modern bullets are so deformed it is difficult to impossible to get positive identification from comparison.



Here's a pretty good site that covers ballistic forensics in a concise and simple manner.
www.firearmsid.com/index.html

It's also the only site I've happened across that lists fiearms and ammo recalls for those that are interested.

www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/Recall%20Introduction.htm



Also guns with hammer forged barrels, like Glocks, are so uniform that you can't tell one from another. This has been a problem in mutiple officer shootings. Locally, it was the same with Sig P229's as well.



I've read of at least one PD that had the original "hex" rifled barrels in their Glocks replaced with the more traditional land and groove type because of a question as too which officer killed a suspect.

Apparently the hex barrels are very difficult to match and examiners have to reley on the spent shell casing (if recovered).

Link Posted: 6/16/2002 8:05:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JasonF:

Originally Posted By BobCole:
IIRC, it is MD & Mass.



Mass isn't one of them... although that hasn't stopped them from trying.



MA has managed to screw up everything else though.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 8:39:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LE6920:

Originally Posted By JasonF:

Originally Posted By BobCole:
IIRC, it is MD & Mass.



Mass isn't one of them... although that hasn't stopped them from trying.



MA has managed to screw up everything else though.



Unfortunately
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 8:49:16 PM EDT
Bigyeti, it isn't evidence, so the chain of custody wouldn't apply. It is more of an attempt to check guns used in crimes and do a ballistic fingerprint and have a gun owner to trace it back to, to start the investigation.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 9:47:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JasonF:

Originally Posted By BobCole:
IIRC, it is MD & Mass.



Mass isn't one of them... although that hasn't stopped them from trying.



Perhaps I was thinking about their stupid-assed "gun safety test/requirement" before selling a model there?
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:02:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Perhaps I was thinking about their stupid-assed "gun safety test/requirement" before selling a model there?



Is that it?. Then you'll really appreciate this: no human silhouette targets are permitted on gun club ranges... Wait a minute, let me re-phrase that; on *some* ranges you can shoot at silhouette targets and on others you can't.

A person might as well consult tide charts and tarot cards to figure out some of these laws work.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:18:31 AM EDT
OK, I'm confused about who gets the spent casing. I recently bought a Ruger revolver and there was a little manila envelope in the case. It contained a spent 38-spl case. The FFL I bought it from didn't take it. I asked what it was for and he said MA sales. Are ALL dealers supposed to maintain the spent case?
Isn't this pretty close to registration? After all, it is uniquely identifying each firearm, much like a serial # would do.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:56:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 10:59:11 AM EDT by PrudentGT]
It was either on this board or Glocktalk that someone mentioned watching CSI and thought it funny that a character on the show picked up a casing and immediately ID'd it as having come from a Glock. Then someone pointed out that Glocks do indeed have a unique signature -- the primer strike indentation has a rectangular outline from the Glock's recangular striker hole (technical term, I know) on the breechface. I noticed this when I was going through brass during my first reloading experience a couple of weeks ago.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:15:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Slacker:
OK, I'm confused about who gets the spent casing. I recently bought a Ruger revolver and there was a little manila envelope in the case. It contained a spent 38-spl case. The FFL I bought it from didn't take it. I asked what it was for and he said MA sales. Are ALL dealers supposed to maintain the spent case?



I have no idea where the spent case is sent. Elsewhere in this thread someone mentiond that in NY it's processed by the CoBIS.
The only other state that I'm currently aware of
that requires ballistic fingerprinting is Maryland (perhaps that's what the FFL meant to say). In Maryland they're entered into the "Integrated Ballistics Identification Sytem" (IBIS)

www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/MD_Resources/MDSP/crimelab.html

"Maryland is the first state to mandate the entry of manufacturers of new handgun shell-casing information into an Integrated Ballistics Identification System".

The IBIS is part of the NBIN program... National Ballistic Information Network; owned and operated by you guessed it... the BATF.

www.nibin.gov



Isn't this pretty close to registration? After all, it is uniquely identifying each firearm, much like a serial # would do.



It's pretty much De facto gun registration.
Since adopting or participating in the NBIN is
up to each individual state, the Feds can claim
that it's not their doing... they're just acting
as a go-between so that states can share information.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:40:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slacker:
OK, I'm confused about who gets the spent casing. I recently bought a Ruger revolver and there was a little manila envelope in the case. It contained a spent 38-spl case. The FFL I bought it from didn't take it. I asked what it was for and he said MA sales. Are ALL dealers supposed to maintain the spent case?




See, this is what I'm worried about, a manufacturer sending a fired case with a new firearm to a state that doesn't require it.
If they do, I want that case since it's not required to be kept in my state. I must say I wouldn't trust the dealer to give it to me or even tell me if one came with a handgun.


That's why I originally asked if any manufacturers sent a case with every handgun no matter where it went.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 2:27:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By edpmedic:
I was told by the guy I got my glock from, the shell stays with him. If for some reason my gun is stolen or used in a crime he gives it to the propr authorties. He has bins full of shells.


That's a new one for me. Sounds good but it simpily is not true.
www.troopers.state.ny.us/Firearms/Cobis/Cobisindex.html

NYS Combined Ballistic Identification System

Q - Are gun manufacturers required to include a cartridge casing with every gun they ship to New York State after March 1, 2001?

On and after March 1, 2001, any manufacturer that ships, transports or delivers a pistol or revolver to New York State must include a cartridge casing of a bullet or projectile fired from the pistol or revolver in the container with the gun. This does not apply to rifles and shotguns, only to handguns. Failure to do so is punishable as a violation for a first offense and as a misdemeanor for subsequent offenses.

Q - How many cartridge casings should be included with the gun?

Two cartridge casings would be preferred, but only one is required by the statute.

Q - Is there a specific method by which the cartridge casings must be collected?

Each manufacturer must devise a method that is best for their particular operation. However, the manufacturer is responsible for insuring that the casings are correctly identified and packaged. By signing the envelope and initialing across the seal, the person collecting the cartridge(s) signifies that the contents were discharged from the firearm identified on the envelope and that all information is accurate.


Q - What are the responsibilities of a licensed dealer in firearms upon receipt of pistols and revolver into inventory?

A dealer in firearms that receives a new pistol or revolver from a manufacturer on or after March 1, 2001, shall upon receipt, ensure that the firearm is accompanied by a properly completed and sealed approved container enclosing a ballistic sample.

Q - Does this mean that guns received from out-of-state wholesalers aren't affected by this law because they're not received directly from a manufacturer?

No, for purposes of this section, the term "Manufacturer" includes any person, firm or corporation outside this state engaged in the business of supplying pistols or revolvers to licensed dealers in firearms in this state.

Q - Do these requirements apply to guns that were in inventory prior to March 1, 2001?

No, any pistol or revolver that was in inventory of a New York State licensed dealer in firearms prior to March 1, 2001 is exempt from these regulations. Upon transfer to another dealer, the dealer who held the gun in inventory prior to March 1, 2001 must certify this fact.

Q - When does a licensed dealer in firearms have to submit a cartridge supplied by a manufacturer, and to whom must it be sent?

Within 10 days after retail sale and delivery of the pistol or revolver, the licensed firearms dealer must send the cartridge casing along with the usual P-12 form to:

New York State Police CoBIS Center
Building 30, 1220 Washington Avenue
Albany, NY 12226-3000

Q - May a gun dealer sell a firearm if the cartridge supplied by the manufacturer is lost?

Yes, but the dealer must first obtain another cartridge. This can be accomplished by participation at one of the regional CoBIS centers operated by the State Police.


Link Posted: 6/18/2002 4:18:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2002 4:19:31 AM EDT by GLOCKshooter]
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?id=51145

edit to add this is an AR15.com link, I just log on by the mirror site.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:25:45 AM EDT
My girlfriend bought me a Browning Buckmark for Christmas last year, and it came with two shell casings for "fingerprinting". I left my "fingerprints" on them as I tossed them in the trash.
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