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Posted: 7/23/2009 7:51:42 AM EST
Probably in the next few months I will start shopping for a RR, I have done well for myself and it is time for a present.

I know the "Gold Standard" is Colt, but I am not looking for a collectors item. I want a M-16 to use and "abuse" (not abuse, just shoot a lot).

Just watching Subguns I see Olympic & Frankfort RR's come up for the $10,000 range, it is a good chunk less than the Colts - is there any main disadvantage? Things to watch out for?
Link Posted: 7/23/2009 9:43:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Probably in the next few months I will start shopping for a RR, I have done well for myself and it is time for a present.

I know the "Gold Standard" is Colt, but I am not looking for a collectors item. I want a M-16 to use and "abuse" (not abuse, just shoot a lot).

Just watching Subguns I see Olympic & Frankfort RR's come up for the $10,000 range, it is a good chunk less than the Colts - is there any main disadvantage? Things to watch out for?


I have an SGW (Olympic) RR that i bought in 1991 for $950. It runs like a top, but I use Colt FCG parts and quality uppers/barrels/BCG's. The takedown/pivot pins are sometimes slightly out of spec on Oly's, so you might have to spend a little time fitting different uppers, but that is about it.
Link Posted: 7/24/2009 6:05:41 PM EST
I have a Frankford/Oly, it runs like a champ. The searhole is not as tight as I would like but it runs with my LMT 10inch like a champ. It was sold to me with a A1 upper and that thing was fun, I wish I had kept it. The conversions work just fine as far as I know.
Link Posted: 7/28/2009 9:01:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Are there any RR's to avoid?


Yes, any RR in which an unregistered DIAS was used as the conversion device.
Link Posted: 7/30/2009 6:31:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2009 6:31:50 PM EST by jbntex]
This would be my personal list in desirability for registered receivers in decending order.

What I would consider purchasing

1. Colt M16A2
2. Colt M16A1 or standard M16
3. Colt AR15 Mod 613 or 614
4. Forged Olympic Arms, Frankford Arsenal, or SENDRA converted by a reputable C2 such as P.A.W.S or Bushmaster.
5. Forged Olympic Arms, Frankford Arsenal, or SENDRA which has been properly converted by by an unknown C2 or individual and is in spec.

M16s I would not purchase unless it was a really good deal which would have to be $7500 or less.

6. Coverted Colt SP1 (These are good receivers and most people will disagree with me about placing these receivers below 3rd party such as Oly. Personally due to the upper pin hole arrangement and slab side look I would personally rather have a nice Oly or SENDRA unless an SP1 was priced really competitvely)
7. Essential Arms (Cast Receiver)

M16 I would not bother to unless under $5000 due to the inherent risk of problems down the road.

8. Olympic Arms (Bar Stock Milled Receiver)
8. Converted Oly, Franford, or SENDRA which is out of spec.
9. Reweld by a reputable C2 such as Norrell or Stemple

M16 I probably would not touch at any price (well any price anybody would sell an M16 for anyway)

10. Reweld by unknown C2
11. Married DIAS Gun

James
Austin Texas

Link Posted: 7/31/2009 2:23:57 PM EST
nice run down
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 2:34:51 PM EST
Awesome suggestions guys. Thanks.

Now I just need to start setting aside funds
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 2:55:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 3:00:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By hrt4me:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Are there any RR's to avoid?


Yes, any RR in which an unregistered DIAS was used as the conversion device.


Explain for the guy who knows nothing about this?
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 4:14:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By FredMan:
Originally Posted By hrt4me:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Are there any RR's to avoid?


Yes, any RR in which an unregistered DIAS was used as the conversion device.


Explain for the guy who knows nothing about this?



Prior to 1981 a DIAS by itself was not considered a machinegun in and unto itself. As a result a common method to create a M16 via a Form 1 was to purchase an AR15, a DIAS, Full Auto Carrier, and Fire-Control Group.

The maker on the F1 would use the unserialized DIAS and on the F1 put the serial number of the receiver. At that point the DIAS became married to the receiver as the entire group of parts was now a machinegun "kit" with the receiver being the serialized component.

There has been some speculation based upon one person receiving a ATF Law Letter stating that these machineguns were improperly registered. However, I have yet to hear of the ATF rounding up Married DIAS Sear Guns.

From a practical limitations on the combination.

1. You won't be able to legally separate the DIAS from the Host Gun
2. The host gun is most likely a Colt SP1 with all of it's unique quirks.
3. If the receiver breaks you can't replace it like you can with a traditional DIAS gun.
4. If the unserialized DIAS breaks you can't "legally" replace it either.

Due to all of the caveat and that you are going to be stuck with all the downsides of a DIAS (timing, losing it, etc.) as well as some pretty old SP1 receiver in most cases, and potentially a slight chance of legal problems due to registration why mess with purchasing one of these unless at a huge discount over all the other M16 options out there.

James
Austin, Texas
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 4:15:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2009 4:16:19 PM EST by GHPorter]
Originally Posted By FredMan:
Originally Posted By hrt4me:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Are there any RR's to avoid?


Yes, any RR in which an unregistered DIAS was used as the conversion device.


Explain for the guy who knows nothing about this?


James beat me to it by seconds!
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 6:47:08 PM EST
Agreed (anything "married").
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:07:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:52:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Hoo, boy ......

This is sorta like a life-long car owner asking, "I've decided to buy a used pickup truck. Are there any makes to avoid?"

Well, yes. And no. And maybe. Because so much depends on how the truck was used and maintained. If real estate boils down to "location, location, location," M16 purchasing decisions boil down to "condition, condition, condition."

Since GOPA '86 cut off production of MGs transferable to civilians, we are all dealing with used examples. So history and condition often matter more than brand .... and the few remaining unfired M16s are not what a shooter should buy, because at this point, the "unfired" condition adds more to the market value than it does to utility and functional value.

I have given detailed answers of my personal take and experience on this question in the past, but I have never tacked the threads. I guess it is time to do so. I'll try to get to it in the next coupla days, and post a link here.


I don't post here much anymore, but was browsing through the forum, and decided to say.

If you can, I'd get out and lay hands on the Receiver and inspect it yourself before you drop a good chunk of change on it, Honestly, for a 10-12k MG, a plane ticket may not be a bad idea, I'd do some research and ask around for what to look for as excessive wear, but I'd want to hold the item and inspect it before I bought it.

Just IMHO. Most manufacturer's aren't going to warranty a product that's at least 23 years old, so you're going to have to go to a specific smith to have something fixed, so that's what I'd recommend.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 7:30:08 PM EST
i'm waiting on the form 4 for a complete M16 lower that i bought in april.

the seller sent MANY photos and even a video. he did a good job. my class 3 dealer is in juneau and i'm in sitka, so when i was over there in may, i was able to check it out... and use it. it looked better in real life than the photos and worked perfectly.


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