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Posted: 3/2/2009 8:25:38 PM EDT
[#1]
Bump firing? Yes, but not too sure about the rubber band.
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Posted: 3/2/2009 10:33:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Bump fireing
 needing a ruber band to do it
Get a happy switch 
Once you go NFA you'll never go back. |
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Posted: 3/3/2009 4:14:08 AM EDT
[#3]
They are both legal.
While it is true that happy switches are great it is not the $200 tax and the paperwork that keep people from getting them. It's the fact that everybody wants a full auto AR not an Uzi, and they cost $10,000+ |
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Posted: 3/3/2009 3:27:54 PM EDT
[#4]
Rubber band?? I'd say illegal - no different that the shoe string or Accelerator spring. Each one delivers one bang per trigger pull. I'm sure this makes perfect sense to BTAFE
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Posted: 3/3/2009 4:20:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Rubber band?? I'd say illegal - no different that the shoe string or Accelerator spring. Each one delivers one bang per trigger pull. I'm sure this makes perfect sense to BTAFE I'd say legal, its no different than a HellStorm 2000. It's BATFE not BTAFE by the way. http://www.poormansmachinegun.com/ |
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Posted: 3/4/2009 8:43:48 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
They are both legal. While it is true that happy switches are great it is not the $200 tax and the paperwork that keep people from getting them. It's the fact that everybody wants a full auto AR M16 not AND an Uzi, and they cost $10,000+ |
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Posted: 3/4/2009 12:52:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: They are both legal. While it is true that happy switches are great it is not the $200 tax and the paperwork that keep people from getting them. It's the fact that everybody wants a full auto AR M16 not AND an Uzi, and they cost $10,000+ 1. You must not understand how things work. Say I have an AR15 and I put a RLL or RDIAS in it. It may be full auto but it is still an AR because it is not a RR. Therefore it is not an M16. Technically its not even a machine gun. In the eyes of the BATFE the RDIAS or RLL is the firearm. 2. The reason I said not instead of and is because Uzis do not cost what a RDIAS costs. Therefore the reason people don't get a full auto is because they want a $10,000+ weapon. They do not want an Uzi which cost half that or less. The point is, it is price prohibitive, not paper work and time. I may not have been clear but if you fail to understand my post feel free to comment. Do not attempt to fix it by making it incorrect. |
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Posted: 6/10/2009 6:09:44 AM EDT
[#9]
Zack, you have perfected your bump firing technique!!!
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Posted: 6/10/2009 4:41:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They are both legal. While it is true that happy switches are great it is not the $200 tax and the paperwork that keep people from getting them. It's the fact that everybody wants a full auto AR M16 not AND an Uzi, and they cost $10,000+ 1. You must not understand how things work. Say I have an AR15 and I put a RLL or RDIAS in it. It may be full auto but it is still an AR because it is not a RR. Therefore it is not an M16. Technically its not even a machine gun. In the eyes of the BATFE the RDIAS or RLL is the firearm. 2. The reason I said not instead of and is because Uzis do not cost what a RDIAS costs. Therefore the reason people don't get a full auto is because they want a $10,000+ weapon. They do not want an Uzi which cost half that or less. The point is, it is price prohibitive, not paper work and time. I may not have been clear but if you fail to understand my post feel free to comment. Do not attempt to fix it by making it incorrect. Yea, you're right, I've got my RDIAS locked up in my safe, but I have no idea how they work....
I may be good, but I'm no mind reader. Before you this thread was in no way, shape or form talking about RLLs or RDIASs and you never specified what you were taking about, so since all you said was "FULL AUTO AR15" which is a false statement without specifying a conversion device, I corrected it in the most logical manor. Had you said everyone wants a RDIAS/LL so they can shoot their AR15 full auto I would have agreed. As for your statement about people wanting "full auto Ar15s" over Uzi, well that's just silly.... You know the AR15 mantra is GET BOTH!!! So there you go, it's not that I didn't understand your post, it's just that you didn't make any sense.... |
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Posted: 6/10/2009 6:32:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Some of you guys are mixing apples and oranges.
If you pull the trigger with your finger, every time a bullet a comes out, then you are OKAY/LEGAL. If, in the use of a "shoe string" or "acelerator", the ACTION of the bolt flying back pulls the string, which in turn PULLS THE TRIGGER AUTOMATICALY FOR YOU, then you are illegal. Big difference guys. Don't confuse the two, and don't give the ATF any ideas. Rubber band just HELPS you pull the trigger faster - but the bottom line is it's still ONE trigger Pull, and ONE round. In the "shoe string" it's ONE trigger pull, and then the rest of the magazine dumps without you doing anything because the recoil throws the bolt/slide back which then pulls the string, which pulls the trigger...until the mag is empty. trust me...lol |
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Posted: 6/10/2009 7:09:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Some of you guys are mixing apples and oranges. If you pull the trigger with your finger, every time a bullet a comes out, then you are OKAY/LEGAL. If, in the use of a "shoe string" or "acelerator", the ACTION of the bolt flying back pulls the string, which in turn PULLS THE TRIGGER AUTOMATICALY FOR YOU, then you are illegal. Big difference guys. Don't confuse the two, and don't give the ATF any ideas. Rubber band just HELPS you pull the trigger faster - but the bottom line is it's still ONE trigger Pull, and ONE round. In the "shoe string" it's ONE trigger pull, and then the rest of the magazine dumps without you doing anything because the recoil throws the bolt/slide back which then pulls the string, which pulls the trigger...until the mag is empty. trust me...lol That makes sense ... until you read ATF's ruling that the Akins Accelerator is a machine gun, even though –– like the rubber band –– all it does is help you pull the trigger faster (yes, it is still ONE trigger pull, and ONE round). 18 U.S.C. 922(o): Transfer or possession of machinegun 26 U.S.C. 5845(b): Definition of machinegun 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(23): Definition of machinegun The definition of machinegun in the National Firearms Act and the Gun Control Act includes a part or parts that are designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun. This language includes a device that, when activated by a single pull of the trigger, initiates an automatic firing cycle that continues until the finger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted. ATF Rul. 2006-2 The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has been asked by several members of the firearms industry to classify devices that are exclusively designed to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm. These devices, when attached to a firearm, result in the firearm discharging more than one shot with a single function of the trigger. ATF has been asked whether these devices fall within the definition of machinegun under the National Firearms Act (NFA) and Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). As explained herein, these devices, once activated by a single pull of the trigger, initiate an automatic firing cycle which continues until either the finger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted. Accordingly, these devices are properly classified as a part “designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun” and therefore machineguns under the NFA and GCA. The National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, defines the term “firearm” to include a machinegun. Section 5845(b) of the NFA defines “machinegun” as “any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.” The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, defines machinegun identically to the NFA. 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(23). Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(o), machineguns manufactured on or after May 19, 1986, may only be transferred to or possessed by Federal, State, and local government agencies for official use. ATF has examined several firearms accessory devices that are designed and intended to accelerate the rate of fire for semiautomatic firearms. One such device consists of the following components: two metal blocks; the first block replaces the original manufacturer’s V-Block of a Ruger 10/22 rifle and has attached two rods approximately ¼ inch in diameter and approximately 6 inches in length; the second block, approximately 3 inches long, 1 ⅜ inches wide, and ¾ inch high, has been machined to allow the two guide rods of the first block to pass through. The second block supports the guide rods and attaches to the stock. Using ¼ inch rods, metal washers, rubber and metal bushings, two collars with set screws, one coiled spring, C-clamps, and a split ring, the two blocks are assembled together with the composite stock. As attached to the firearm, the device permits the entire firearm (receiver and all its firing components) to recoil a short distance within the stock when fired. A shooter pulls the trigger which causes the firearm to discharge. As the firearm moves rearward in the composite stock, the shooter’s trigger finger contacts the stock. The trigger mechanically resets, and the device, which has a coiled spring located forward of the firearm receiver, is compressed. Energy from this spring subsequently drives the firearm forward into its normal firing position and, in turn, causes the trigger to contact the shooter’s trigger finger. Provided the shooter maintains finger pressure against the stock, the weapon will fire repeatedly until the ammunition is exhausted or the finger is removed. The assembled device is advertised to fire approximately 650 rounds per minute. Live-fire testing of this device demonstrated that a single pull of the trigger initiates an automatic firing cycle which continues until the finger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted. As noted above, a part or parts designed and intended to convert a weapon into a machinegun, i.e., a weapon that will shoot automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machinegun under the NFA and GCA. ATF has determined that the device constitutes a machinegun under the NFA and GCA. This determination is consistent with the legislative history of the National Firearms Act in which the drafters equated “single function of the trigger” with “single pull of the trigger.” See, e.g., National Firearms Act: Hearings Before the Comm. on Ways and Means, House of Representatives, Second Session on H.R. 9066, 73rd Cong., at 40 (1934). Accordingly, conversion parts that, when installed in a semiautomatic rifle, result in a weapon that shoots more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single pull of the trigger, are a machinegun as defined in the National Firearms Act and the Gun Control Act. Held, a device (consisting of a block replacing the original manufacturer’s V-Block of a Ruger 10/22 rifle with two attached rods approximately ¼ inch in diameter and approximately 6 inches in length; a second block, approximately 3 inches long, 1 ⅜ inches wide, and ¾ inch high, machined to allow the two guide rods of the first block to pass through; the second block supporting the guide rods and attached to the stock; using ¼ inch rods; metal washers; rubber and metal bushings; two collars with set screws; one coiled spring; C-clamps; a split ring; the two blocks assembled together with the composite stock) that is designed to attach to a firearm and, when activated by a single pull of the trigger, initiates an automatic firing cycle that continues until either the finger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted, is a machinegun under the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), and the Gun Control Act, 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(23). Held further, manufacture and distribution of any device described in this ruling must comply with all provisions of the NFA and the GCA, including 18 U.S.C. 922(o). To the extent that previous ATF rulings are inconsistent with this determination, they are hereby overruled. Date approved: December 13, 2006 Michael J. Sullivan Director |
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Posted: 6/10/2009 8:26:46 PM EDT
[#13]
I give up.
Anybody want my rubber band collection? |
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Posted: 6/10/2009 8:35:49 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 6/10/2009 8:50:51 PM EDT
[#15]
So basically the BATFE has taken the liberty to interpret the law to be:
The National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, defines the term “firearm” to include a machinegun. Section 5845(b) of the NFA defines “machinegun” as “any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger and/or finger. What if the Akins device caused the trigger and finger to move between each shot - do you think there would be any way to classify it as a MG then? |
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Posted: 6/11/2009 4:27:28 PM EDT
[#16]
I was under the impression that the shoe string method involved a gentleman tying a shoe string to the charging handle of his AK and the other end to his finger. If the length of the string is just right, the momentum of the bolt flying forward will pull his finger off the trigger for just a moment. Keeping constant pressure on the trigger finger, the trigger is pressed again and the process repeats. The length has to be precise. Too long and the bolt is pulled out of battery when the trigger is pulled to the rear, too short and the finger isn't pulled far enough forward to reset the trigger. This is definitely "a single function of the trigger" (and finger) for each round fired. This is also a very similar concept to the Akins Accelerator. The BATFE is clearly just plain making shit up now as the ruling on the shoe string and Akins Accelerator ignore the "single function of the trigger" standard, even if you make up some bullshit about the finger, too.
I have yet to see a ruling on bump firing or the rubber band method, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the BATFE go either way on it. They clearly like to make shit up and some agents seem to make a career out of butt fucking people, but the mechanical principles involved in the rubber band and bump firing are much different. I tell you one thing, though, I wouldn't do it in sight of anyone I didn't know really well, even if I could afford the ammo now days. |
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Posted: 6/11/2009 8:14:37 PM EDT
[#17]
I believe the shoestring is illegal because they would tie it around the charging handle then loop it around the trigger then have a loop on the end for their finger. They kept pressure on the the string and when the bolt back it put some slack in the string and when it went forward it took up the slack and made the gun go off which is done automatically by the bolt going forward
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Posted: 6/12/2009 11:43:24 AM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 6/12/2009 1:12:34 PM EDT
[#19]
you Boys that always look for these Clarifications....are just looking for trouble.
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Posted: 6/12/2009 2:45:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
you Boys that always look for these Clarifications....are just looking for trouble. +1 |
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Posted: 6/12/2009 4:46:10 PM EDT
[#21]
bump firing, and shoestrings are LEGAL.
end of story. and your welcome for the clarification. 
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Posted: 6/12/2009 5:34:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Just BUY LEGAL Class 3.....End OF Story
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Posted: 6/12/2009 5:57:05 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Just BUY LEGAL Class 3.....End OF Story If it were just that easy. 
Most of us do not have extra thousands of dollars laying around - especially in the current economy. That is why the Akins's of the world are trying to come up with better FA simulators. YMMV |
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Posted: 6/12/2009 6:25:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just BUY LEGAL Class 3.....End OF Story If it were just that easy.
Most of us do not have extra thousands of dollars laying around - especially in the current economy. That is why the Akins's of the world are trying to come up with better FA simulators. YMMV and some of us are stuck in states where class 3 isn't legal (even if we COULD afford it). heres the shoe string and the bumping ruleings by the atf http://www.bobernet.com/blog/2007/07/shoe_string_no_longer_a_machin.html as of 25 june 2007 this is legal http://www.poormansmachinegun.com/PMMG2.htm as of 13 october 2006 this is legal (not that it was ever illegal but the atf has expressed their ruleing) and heres a link to some dumbass (me) on my myspace there is a video my friend took of me shooting of the back porch. the reason i say check out the vid is because anyone who has shot a real full auto (and i have) will tell you how awsome it is, and if you look at the huge grin on my face at the end of the video that should explain how fun it can be. http://www.myspace.com/98368192 |
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Posted: 6/12/2009 7:11:03 PM EDT
[#25]
Using a rubber band to assist in the technique of bump firing is nothing more that adding a heavier trigger return spring to an AR15. They ban a rubber band then any gun with a trigger return spring would be illegal. The BATFE FTB has never given me a clear yes or no answer on the legality of using a rubber band to make bump firing easier. I don't expect they ever will. Because the rubber band duplicates what the HellStorm 2000 trigger devices do, and they have been BATFE approved since the late 80's, I would have to assume that the rubber band would not become an issue.
Bottom line is the rubber band is a joke, thought up in spite of the Hellstorm 2000 devices! It is not needed to make your firearm bump fire. Just like the Hellstorm devices are not needed to make your firearm bump fire. But they do help! So if you decide you want something to help you bump fire what do you choose, something that cost $40.00 or something that you probably have laying around your house. Below is a link to the Hellstorm 2000 device commercial, and a link to my Hellstorm2000 spoof video! Hellstorm 2000 EBR 5000 Trigger Manipulator |
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Posted: 6/12/2009 8:12:09 PM EDT
[#26]
dude, you are Never ''stuck''.... if you want something bad enough...sacrafice and get it !
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Posted: 6/13/2009 11:21:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
dude, you are Never ''stuck''.... if you want something bad enough...sacrafice and get it ! Dispite the ease of use of machine guns, I don't think I will ever be able to justify spending several thousands of dollars on a firearm that could someday be able to be manufactured again by the right Congressional & Presidental action! Not to mention that after discovering that most popular semi-auto's can be bump fired off the shoulder accurately ,and as fast as a true machine gun without the cost, and red tape of a transferable machine guns I will stick with my poormans technique. |
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Posted: 6/13/2009 1:36:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Your dreaming about them being able to be manufactured again. Not passing any new gun restrictions is one thing but to allow machines to be manufactured again isnt gonna pass. Could you see the news media on that one, theywould have a field day if they even tried to open the registry back up. As far as MOST people know machine guns are illegal and its best to keep them thinking that. If they knew anyone with a wad of cash, a clean background and a few months to wait could buy the stuff they can there would be alot of pressure to get rid of them because they would just view it as a way criminals can buy full auto guns.
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Posted: 6/13/2009 2:53:54 PM EDT
[#29]
Does the Hellfire come with the bitchen glasses and a shot of roids? If so, $40 is a good deal...
Jeremy |
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Posted: 6/13/2009 3:42:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Your dreaming about them being able to be manufactured again. Not passing any new gun restrictions is one thing but to allow machines to be manufactured again isnt gonna pass. Could you see the news media on that one, they would have a field day if they even tried to open the registry back up. As far as MOST people know machine guns are illegal and its best to keep them thinking that. If they knew anyone with a wad of cash, a clean background and a few months to wait could buy the stuff they can there would be alot of pressure to get rid of them because they would just view it as a way criminals can buy full auto guns. I am far from dreaming. I was merely stating that the Hughes Amendment could be repealed by a simple congressional or presidential act. Then your $15k investment is worthless. I didn't say anything about the probability of it happening. |
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Posted: 6/13/2009 5:36:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Your dreaming about them being able to be manufactured again. Not passing any new gun restrictions is one thing but to allow machines to be manufactured again isnt gonna pass. Could you see the news media on that one, theywould have a field day if they even tried to open the registry back up. As far as MOST people know machine guns are illegal and its best to keep them thinking that. If they knew anyone with a wad of cash, a clean background and a few months to wait could buy the stuff they can there would be alot of pressure to get rid of them because they would just view it as a way criminals can buy full auto guns. i for one don't want liberal gun grabbers or especially the general public thinking they are illegal. to me that logic is assanine. if the general public or media thinks its illegal, then to them any laws restricting them would make sense "heck their already illegal, why not have some more laws to keep us safe". the general publics ignorance is the reason for most gun control laws to begin with. if every one knew they were legal and saw how no one was comiiting crimes with legally owned class three stuff (of any type), then there could be some hope of that 1986 law being repealed. the media and general publics ignorance is the very reason it will never happen. i had a discussion w/ my buddies g/f (liberal anti gun chick). she told me she was glad machine guns were illegal because if you could legally buy them people would just want in to a store, buy it, and go commit mass murder. when i explained to her all the hoops and expenses, plus time to wait vs. going to any major city and paying much less (you think a f/a AR cost 15 g's in a back alley? i think not.) with no backgroung check or time to wait, even she (an adament anti gun liberal) admitted banning something like that didnt make a whole lot of sense. and im sorry if your offended justice but your backword way of thinking is just the type of attitude the brady's and feinsteins of the world like and helps make them chipping away at law abidding gun owners rights that much easier. |
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Posted: 6/14/2009 7:00:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They are both legal. While it is true that happy switches are great it is not the $200 tax and the paperwork that keep people from getting them. It's the fact that everybody wants a full auto AR M16 not AND an Uzi, and they cost $10,000+ 1. You must not understand how things work. Say I have an AR15 and I put a RLL or RDIAS in it. It may be full auto but it is still an AR because it is not a RR. Therefore it is not an M16. Technically its not even a machine gun. In the eyes of the BATFE the RDIAS or RLL is the firearm. 2. The reason I said not instead of and is because Uzis do not cost what a RDIAS costs. Therefore the reason people don't get a full auto is because they want a $10,000+ weapon. They do not want an Uzi which cost half that or less. The point is, it is price prohibitive, not paper work and time. I may not have been clear but if you fail to understand my post feel free to comment. Do not attempt to fix it by making it incorrect. Yea, you're right, I've got my RDIAS locked up in my safe, but I have no idea how they work....
I may be good, but I'm no mind reader. Before you this thread was in no way, shape or form talking about RLLs or RDIASs and you never specified what you were taking about, so since all you said was "FULL AUTO AR15" which is a false statement without specifying a conversion device, I corrected it in the most logical manor. Had you said everyone wants a RDIAS/LL so they can shoot their AR15 full auto I would have agreed. As for your statement about people wanting "full auto Ar15s" over Uzi, well that's just silly.... You know the AR15 mantra is GET BOTH!!! So there you go, it's not that I didn't understand your post, it's just that you didn't make any sense.... This is funny because I just bought a RR AR15 and a Uzi w'in the last month, both full auto 
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