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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/15/2005 7:45:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 7:47:17 PM EDT by AyeGuy]
There seems to be a bit of apprehension about the terminal ballistics of the new PDW cartridges as used in the FN P-90 and HK MP-7. This does not need to be so.

See this discussion for a primer on PDWs...and the controversy over the 5.7 round.

I have one word for you, and you won't like it: TOXIC BULLETS


*****

But think about it before you start to call me a moral leper...

What is so "humane" about a bullet constructed of copper and lead shreading tissues and causing hydrostatic shock damage as it gives up its kinetic energy in a human body?

Why is a toxic substance worse than fragments of a bullet ending a person's life?


*****

The percieved deficiencies in the new PDW projectiles would be more than nullified if a substance capable of destroying tissues by a chemical means or interfering with neurological processes were loaded into each projectile. All a bullet would need would be sufficient velocity to strike the target (and perhaps penetrate body armor) and termination of the enemy would be assurred.

The PDW as exemplified by the FiveSeven, P-90, and MP-7 would be ideal for toxic rounds, what with their very low recoil and high magazine capacities.


*****


Well...we want to KILL the enemy, don't we?

And wouldn't Toxic Projectiles be a very efficient way to do so?
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 7:53:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 7:55:41 PM EDT by txgp17]

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Well...we want to KILL the enemy, don't we?
And wouldn't Toxic Projectiles be a very efficient way to do so?

I'm sure they would kill best, but the PC police just will not tolerate it. Some people have the "shoot'em in the leg" mentality because they don't want to kill anyone, not knowing that a shot to the femoral artery can kill quicker than one to the lung.

How would you regulate the poison on the bullets? What's to keep some egghead from scraping off the poison into a syringe or something and pricking a stanger in the elevator? This would make ammo deadly, in the absence of a firearm. If someone wants poison ammo, they should buy a chemistry book and do it at home like Chief Brody did in Jaws.

Oh, IBTL.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 7:56:48 PM EDT
AyeGuy, why don't you sit back and read for six months or so and stop spamming the board with inane posts.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:07:43 PM EDT
it worked in jaws
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:34:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Well...we want to KILL the enemy, don't we?
And wouldn't Toxic Projectiles be a very efficient way to do so?

I'm sure they would kill best, but the PC police just will not tolerate it. Some people have the "shoot'em in the leg" mentality because they don't want to kill anyone, not knowing that a shot to the femoral artery can kill quicker than one to the lung.

How would you regulate the poison on the bullets? What's to keep some egghead from scraping off the poison into a syringe or something and pricking a stanger in the elevator? This would make ammo deadly, in the absence of a firearm. If someone wants poison ammo, they should buy a chemistry book and do it at home like Chief Brody did in Jaws.

Oh, IBTL.



Well techincaly you are suppose to shoot to eliminate the treat, not to kill.. But you know if it takes killing them to eliminate it I have no problem with that.. As for scaping it into a syringe, they can do that with most household cleaning products if they wanted..

And it would not have to be external of the bullet it could be inside the casing so when it frags it is released.

But how about instead of toxic it was say a pain killed (numbing effect) / knock out Anitesia type thing.. Not to kill but say you shot them and it did not eliminate the threat, and it was not in a vital area, and for some reason you could not get another shot off.. but say in 10 sec or so the pass out not from the bullet or the wound but the drugs released onto there body.. I don't know if this would be possable but hey it sounds good... But till then just keep shooting till the threat is gone..


Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:02:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 9:04:22 PM EDT by AyeGuy]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
AyeGuy, why don't you sit back and read for six months or so and stop spamming the board with inane posts.



I've been here much longer than six months.

Some members have contributed to my topics in a manner that seems that I have piqued their interest. So, "spam" is in the eye of the beholder.

Would you insted prefer another "Which is better: 16" or 14.5" barrel?" post? Or perhaps a doll story post?

When is the last time someone brought up this subject, and tied it so astutely to the lethality issue of the 5.7?
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:30:49 PM EDT

Let us now discuss the concept of the Personal Defense Weapon.

Would a militarized .243 have been a viable military combat round?

TOP 5 USELESS FEATURES OF THE M-16A2

IR lasers: illegal, immoral, or jusy unobtainable?

Official ARFCOM approved acterss (may become BOTD...please please please)

Anyone cut a midlength down to 14.5 yet?



Most of these lovely topics have been covered before.

You have been here 3 months. This represents about 10% of the topics that you have begun in the last 14 days. Some of them seem to be combative. Many more can be answered using the search feature.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but the idea of toxic bullets is laughable.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:58:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 12:01:19 AM EDT by Golovko]
Toxins usually are much too slow to be practical. And assuming a very fast-acting toxin could be found (works in seconds, not minutes), there's the issue of transportation. Who's going to want to ship crates of potent toxin that comes with it's own propellant/explosive charge? Depending on the nature of the toxin there are real issues with overpenetration or misses such as, "Where did the poison go?" Plus there's the issue that hitting a friendly in a toe could still be fatal assuming a deadly toxin. And finally, stuff that works that fast won't come in a ten-cent bullet. How much does your dentist charge for a shot that takes several minutes to numb only a small portion of your jaw?


I have one word for you, and you won't like it: TOXIC BULLETS



[SMARTASS Mode Active]

By the way "Toxic Bullets" is two words.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 12:40:42 AM EDT
cyanide filled 9mms



Link Posted: 9/16/2005 1:37:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 1:38:46 AM EDT by NH_AR_Shooter]
Originally Posted By AyeGuy:


The percieved deficiencies in the new PDW projectiles would be more than nullified if a substance capable of destroying tissues by a chemical means or interfering with neurological processes were loaded into each projectile. All a bullet would need would be sufficient velocity to strike the target (and perhaps penetrate body armor) and termination of the enemy would be assurred.

The PDW as exemplified by the FiveSeven, P-90, and MP-7 would be ideal for toxic rounds, what with their very low recoil and high magazine capacities.






Such bullets would also instantly terminate any person who shoots himself in the foot or his partner in the ass. Or a little kid, two streets over, who gets hit in the leg by a stray round.

Sounds like great idea......

Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:41:51 AM EDT
the germans toyed with poison 9mm ammunition, Otto Skorzeny tested some and commented about it in his post war book...they had cyanide in them and worked on the dogs they tried them on by shooting them in the legs..and they would convulse and die withen under a half a minute.
The CIA and the Russians were quite enamered with shellfish toxin in the 60'/70's and found innovative ways to launch projectiles the size of a phonograph needle coated with the stuff and to the victim it felt like an insect bite( U.S. MC1 microbiological injector, range 35yards) or in the case of the soviets to coat a needle type object .and one one actual killing the agent walked up in a crowd and stabbed a guy in the leg with the tip of an umberella and he fell to the pavement and died very quickly ...bystanders thought it was a heart attack. Poison certainly works...but not anytype your going to get fron the grocery store.....and It would not go your way in court even on an otherwise "good" shoot if they found out. By default governments seems to be the only ones accetable to have such toys....as they make the rules for the rest of us.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:46:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 5:39:47 AM EDT
All those Mini-14 amred Americans in WWII should have used poisoned bullets, we would have won much faster.

All kidding aside, I think the major problem is not finding an effective agent (cyanide and many other toxins would work very, very quickly) but rather the danger to the user. Just a few problems I can think of with using a toxin that will kill extremely quickly (within a few seconds or under a minute):

If the projectile is coated in toxin, how do you load itno the weapon safely? How do you clean the weapon safely when the bore is coated with deadly toxins after firing?

If the toxin is loaded inside a hollow round or something similar, what happens if it leaks? Even worse, what happens if it leaks within the action of the weapon and the user doesn't know it? Or what if one round leaks into a batch of ammo supplied to a unit? Suddenly your whole squad drops into convulsions when loading their PDW's?

Link Posted: 9/16/2005 7:14:12 PM EDT
Another question is, what's the shelflife of the toxin. Unless sealed, I'd think they'd go inactive. We have TONs of sotred ammo around.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 9:06:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 9:07:06 PM EDT by Noname]
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 4:57:56 AM EDT
The only "safe" way I could see doing it would be a self contained disposable pistol or rifle(or at least self contained magazines)similar to the HK p11 underwater pistol(individual closed chambers), used by individuals like a scout, assassin, or spys. I don't think it would work with your typical end user without extensive education.

For me, I will probably just depend on shot placement and lead poisoningh.gif
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 9:48:20 AM EDT
I have the feeling that work of this sort has been done in many times and places, and that useful ammunition has been produced.

Its just a matter of perception. Some felt that Flame Throwers were an unacceptable weapon.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 11:24:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
AyeGuy, why don't you sit back and read for six months or so and stop spamming the board with inane posts.




+1


(And actually, yes, I WOULD rather read another doll story than to read the crap you've posted in the last 2 weeks...)


Link Posted: 9/17/2005 5:56:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
AyeGuy, why don't you sit back and read for six months or so and stop spamming the board with inane posts.




+1


(And actually, yes, I WOULD rather read another doll story than to read the crap you've posted in the last 2 weeks...)





Its quite easy. Don't look at my posts.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 7:34:14 PM EDT
im not saying i agree or dissagree with the idea of toxic bullets. i may make another post after thinking a lot more about it (probly not though), but for now i just want to say i like the way your thinking outside of the box. more people should. its dosnt mean that all the ideas out side the box are good, ( most of them are horrable) but they should at least be thought about. its how we learn.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:24:08 PM EDT
Toxic bullets would be too complicated and expensive to manufacture.
Bullets do a damn good job of killing by themselves, adding toxins just overcomplicates everything.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:28:44 PM EDT
Let us not forget the reports of the Navy-trained dolphins who escaped after the hurricane. They were roumered to be armed with "toxic darts".
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:49:51 PM EDT
Lead is toxic, just become better at delivering it for a fast death to your target.....
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:29:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By occaar:
it worked in jaws



No it didnt, the dumb shark bit the electrical cable and fried itself.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:41:45 PM EDT
Better yet, bullets with a nano payload -- i.e., microscopic robots entering the bloodstream, replicating themselves, and digesting the human from the inside out. This is not possible today, but will be in the near future.

IBTL
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 2:08:09 PM EDT
Not interested. If I'm unfortunate enough to have to shoot at somebody, I want them out of the fight *NOW*, not an hour later when this mystery toxin has worked through the bloodstream.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:58:18 PM EDT
If your toxin works slower than a CNS hit from a bullet, it's not effective, it's just vindictive.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:05:35 PM EDT
A solution to a nonexistant problem.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:17:57 PM EDT
Only one thing to say, 40MM CN-Tear Agent. I used to make the shit (i'm not kidding there, it's a TERRIBLE job, imagine being in an 8 month riot!) and when it goes off in a pyro shell right in front of you it makes life suck, the LAST thing you want to do is fight, the FIRST thing is run away. Problem solved, and if you're willing to shoot them in the back (since morals are out in this post) you've got an easy target!
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:27:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
AyeGuy, why don't you sit back and read for six months or so and stop spamming the board with inane posts.




+1


(And actually, yes, I WOULD rather read another doll story than to read the crap you've posted in the last 2 weeks...)





Are you guys in charge of the welcome wagon?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:21:37 AM EDT
If you had a way to make the slug out of antimatter you could initiate a multi-kiloton explosion when it contacted the target. Or a leaf that was in the way.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:52:47 AM EDT

If you had a way to make the slug out of antimatter you could initiate a multi-kiloton explosion when it contacted the target. Or a leaf that was in the way.




What if it opened a doorway into another universe like a black hole and the enemy just disappeared?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:07:15 AM EDT
GAY
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:43:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:
A solution to a nonexistant problem.



+1

Besides, I don't think any toxic material can be delivered through the blood fast enough to stop a hostile agressor. A good hit on the CNS is the only way to go.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:23:37 PM EDT
It's my firm belief that during the Cold War the CIA, KGB, MI-6, MOSSAD, and whatever the ChiComs have that passes for a spy establishment, ALL did their homework and came up with nearly instantaneous poisons for assassination jobs.

All that remains is to delve into the archives, ressurect this art (if it isn't currently is use!), and adapt it for mass production. I'm sure Science has the answer.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:39:05 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:51:28 PM EDT
Frozen meat bullet on CSI: LV.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:34:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 6:36:28 AM EDT by rifleman2000]
They already have toxic "bullets", genius. They are called poision darts. Bullets by definition kill with kinetic energy, causing quick incapacitation.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:35:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bullsi:

If you had a way to make the slug out of antimatter you could initiate a multi-kiloton explosion when it contacted the target. Or a leaf that was in the way.




What if it opened a doorway into another universe like a black hole and the enemy just disappeared?



Bullets like that would definitely make the "bullets that tickle" P90 an effective weapon!
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:25:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By bullsi:

If you had a way to make the slug out of antimatter you could initiate a multi-kiloton explosion when it contacted the target. Or a leaf that was in the way.




What if it opened a doorway into another universe like a black hole and the enemy just disappeared?



Bullets like that would definitely make the "bullets that tickle" P90 an effective weapon!



I won't want to be stitch by a five burst of those 22 magish 5.7 rounds...
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:42:52 PM EDT
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