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Posted: 8/18/2017 6:56:35 PM EDT
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/944992-REG/sightmark_sm14064_pvs_14_64_72lp_itt_pinnacle.html
My buddy is selling some of his NODS that he isnt using. One is a Armasight Gen 2+ for 1.5k and the other is a sightmark PVS-14 gen 3 used for 2k (used but mint condition). I know sightmark has a rep for making trash red dots, but what about their PVS-14s. According to my limited research, tubes are made by a few companies, right? So what i'm assuming is that sightmark just assembles it. What you guys think? Should I hop on the PVS-14 gen 3 by Sightmark or just skip out on it. |
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https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/944992-REG/sightmark_sm14064_pvs_14_64_72lp_itt_pinnacle.html My buddy is selling some of his NODS that he isnt using. One is a Armasight Gen 2+ for 1.5k and the other is a sightmark PVS-14 gen 3 used for 2k (used but mint condition). I know sightmark has a rep for making trash red dots, but what about their PVS-14s. According to my limited research, tubes are made by a few companies, right? So what i'm assuming is that sightmark just assembles it. What you guys think? Should I hop on the PVS-14 gen 3 by Sightmark or just skip out on it. View Quote $2K for sightmark? Nope |
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Milspec housings are made by ITT, L3 and Carson. The first two being higher quality and usually exceed milspec and have are manufactured having very tight tolerances. The ones made by Carson are milspec but usually just meet the requirements from my experience based on the units ive had come through the doors of my shop for repairs and other work. These are the kits you see sold on ebay usually for around $700 without tube. An ITT or L3 will be a bit more in price and I would expect to pay no less than a grand for a complete housing with optics minus tube. Those prices are for new units. Im mot sure if the companies you mentioned manufacture their own housings or not, but id guess they probably just buy kits and assemble them into final product to sell to the end user. Thats just my guess though.
ITT (now Harris) and L3 are the two manufacturers of US gen 3 image intensifier tubes and both supply tubes to the US military and mainly to the Army and Navy under the various OMNIBUS tube procurement contracts. I cant comment on the quality of sightmarks builds however as I havent actually ever had a unit that was put together by them as far as I know. Never had a unit that was sporting their brand on the housing. So I will let someone else answer this part of your question. |
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Should add the Pinnacle tube that is supposedly in the unit you posted the link of is a good one. So theres that at least.
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Regarding the notion that all tubes are basically the same, so why shouldn't an "off-brand" device be GTG. Assuming the tube is GTG, you are taking a risk that (all the other) parts are mil-spec or at least up to snuff for what you're doing. Then you are taking a risk that whoever assembled it, did a good job. So basically you are gambling that you are getting the same product as from L3/ITT/TNVC with strict(er) QC procedures. I'm not saying you can't, but I am saying it is a risk. If you make out, then you just saved 1,000 bucks. If not, then you will have to put another 1K into it for at least a parts kit, again assuming the tube is good.
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The Russian company PVS-14's usually use overseas-built PVS-14 housings. These are not milspec, often do not have metal threaded inserts for the housings screws, are not glass-reinforced polymer, etc. They look like PVS-14's in photos, tho. So, buyer beware. We have had numerous people send in PVS-14's that were bought "somewhere else," either from a kit builder or a Russian make. We have taken them apart and it's practically stripped.
We get our US-built full Milspec housings from the same source as L-3 and Harris. Just saying |
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The Russian company PVS-14's usually use overseas-built PVS-14 housings. These are not milspec, often do not have metal threaded inserts for the housings screws, are not glass-reinforced polymer, etc. They look like PVS-14's in photos, tho. So, buyer beware. We have had numerous people send in PVS-14's that were bought "somewhere else," either from a kit builder or a Russian make. We have taken them apart and it's practically stripped. We get our US-built full Milspec housings from the same source as L-3 and Harris. Just saying View Quote |
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Yeah it's a crap shoot, either you know what to look for, or you could get hosed. I'd say first time buyers should stick to a good high-end dealer since you don't really know what you don't know. The more experienced guys can tell the parts apart(!) and build their own, but the beginner is taking risks. Some guys pull it off, but the ones that don't usually won't admit it on line, so you'll never get the full story. For every guy that reports a successful gamble, I'll bet there's at least one who got dicked.
So to the OP, no, there's WIDE variation in the quality of these builds. I've been reading on this website and then this forum for 10+ years. Guys are always asking about saving money by going to these fly by night dealers or private sales. Likely as not, they get dicked instead of a good deal. I think TGI really offers a good deal to the budget buyer, vs chancing used or unknown source kit. For about what you'd pay for used gen III, you can get really good gen II with mil-spec quality parts and assembly. Buying gen III at the 1000-1200 mark is a risky proposition, IMHO. |
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Yeah it's a crap shoot, either you know what to look for, or you could get hosed. I'd say first time buyers should stick to a good high-end dealer since you don't really know what you don't know. The more experienced guys can tell the parts apart(!) and build their own, but the beginner is taking risks. Some guys pull it off, but the ones that don't usually won't admit it on line, so you'll never get the full story. For every guy that reports a successful gamble, I'll bet there's at least one who got dicked. So to the OP, no, there's WIDE variation in the quality of these builds. I've been reading on this website and then this forum for 10+ years. Guys are always asking about saving money by going to these fly by night dealers or private sales. Likely as not, they get dicked instead of a good deal. I think TGI really offers a good deal to the budget buyer, vs chancing used or unknown source kit. For about what you'd pay for used gen III, you can get really good gen II with mil-spec quality parts and assembly. Buying gen III at the 1000-1200 mark is a risky proposition, IMHO. View Quote |
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Just to add to this, a first time diy'er can end up "dicking" themselves over as well if they do not make an effort to learn the propper assembly procedures for the PVS-14. They may have all the highest quality milspec parts by L-3 and or ITT/Harris and a tube with the highest performance specs available, but if they just put it together and dont follow the procedures that are outlined in the TM Then they will more than likeley end up with a unit that does not perform anywhere in line with what it should in respects to the high quality parts that are used to build it. If propper steps arent taken to ensure that small, seemingly unimportant or unknown to the untrained diy'er, aspects of the build are not done properly and correctly, then instead of a quality pvs-14 that performs very well and is a satisfactory unit, the result will be an expensive unit that performs far under what it should and will be more frustrating to use usually than it is enjoyable to use. It will Remain a constant source of headaches to the end user until these issues, caused by incorrect assembly of the unit, are addressed and corrected. If you are building your first pvs-14 or even your 100th, ask yourself this question, "which side/surface of the tube retaining ring should be facing the tubes output end, when it is threaded in to secure the light pipe and tube in the housing?" If you are unsure and cant answer the question with 100% confidence then I suggest either getting the TM from somewhere and reading through it entirely until you can do the procedurwe without the TM and only use it to reference from time to time or have someone who is knowledgable and can build it properly and correctly, the first time, build it for you. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Yeah it's a crap shoot, either you know what to look for, or you could get hosed. I'd say first time buyers should stick to a good high-end dealer since you don't really know what you don't know. The more experienced guys can tell the parts apart(!) and build their own, but the beginner is taking risks. Some guys pull it off, but the ones that don't usually won't admit it on line, so you'll never get the full story. For every guy that reports a successful gamble, I'll bet there's at least one who got dicked. So to the OP, no, there's WIDE variation in the quality of these builds. I've been reading on this website and then this forum for 10+ years. Guys are always asking about saving money by going to these fly by night dealers or private sales. Likely as not, they get dicked instead of a good deal. I think TGI really offers a good deal to the budget buyer, vs chancing used or unknown source kit. For about what you'd pay for used gen III, you can get really good gen II with mil-spec quality parts and assembly. Buying gen III at the 1000-1200 mark is a risky proposition, IMHO. I strongly disagree. Properly assembling a PVS-14 is not rocket science. In fact it's easier than proper disassembly and cleaning of most semi-automatic pistols. YouTube is full of simple tutorials by reputable sources. There is also no reason to memorize the procedure as once it's assembled, there's no reason to disassemble it. Spend the money for a good housing and go for it. |
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"then I suggest either getting the TM from somewhere and reading through it entirely until you can do the procedurwe without the TM" I strongly disagree. Properly assembling a PVS-14 is not rocket science. In fact it's easier than proper disassembly and cleaning of most semi-automatic pistols. YouTube is full of simple tutorials by reputable sources. There is also no reason to memorize the procedure as once it's assembled, there's no reason to disassemble it. Spend the money for a good housing and go for it View Quote Technical Manuals exist because of the simple fact that things should be done a certain way to get the best performance out if a product. Any reputable NV repair shop or builder or anyone assembling pvs-14's and other devices will always have a technical manual on hand for referencing as there is actually quite a bit more than one would think that is contained within the TM in regards to propper procedures. Also learning something once and forgetting it kind of defeats the purpose of a DIY attitude. Fir me when im doing a DIY project I learn as much as possible about the project and procedures to correctly complete the work and also study it as much as possible so thati will be able to successfully repeat the result again if needed. Even if I think ill never use what ive learned from it again because I dont actually know that I wont. If a person isnt going to put effort forth to do a project correctly by learning as much as the can about it, and then forget it once the work has been attempted, and likely failed or turned out half assed and low quality, then they should probably just pay someone to do it the right way abd not try to DIY. Seems like that would be a wast of time start a project with an attitude like that. But thats just my opinion. DIY as i see it means that you end up with a product that you made yourself that is just as good if not better than what can be bought at a store. Usually it will save money, but sometimes may cost more to build yourself. A true DIY'er will still choose to take these on sometimes even though it may cost abit more, simply because they enjoy working on projects and like to learn ehatever possible about a project. |
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I don't disagree with your general principles on DIY projects, but short of cross threading something or pulling the pig tail off the tube, what can you screw up that can't be easily fixed assembling a PVS-14?
The cheap PVS-14s for sale that are screwed up were probably screwed up from lasers or other light sources, or mounting to a weapon. I've not heard of anyone getting a PVS-14 that was permanently messed up because of improper assembly? Other than the tube, the rest of the device is rather simple. Other than the tube which drops in and plugs in, all the electronics are in the battery box which you don't service and is inexpensive and super simple to replace. I see the biggest challenge for a DIY PVS-14 project for the novice is knowing what he or she is getting when they buy a tube. |
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I don't disagree with your general principles on DIY projects, but short of cross threading something or pulling the pig tail off the tube, what can you screw up that can't be easily fixed assembling a PVS-14? The cheap PVS-14s for sale that are screwed up were probably screwed up from lasers or other light sources, or mounting to a weapon. I've not heard of anyone getting a PVS-14 that was permanently messed up because of improper assembly? Other than the tube, the rest of the device is rather simple. Other than the tube which drops in and plugs in, all the electronics are in the battery box which you don't service and is inexpensive and super simple to replace. I see the biggest challenge for a DIY PVS-14 project for the novice is knowing what he or she is getting when they buy a tube. View Quote |
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There are also alot of little things that one should do to prepare fo the actual build and proper was to handle parts as well as storing them until the build is ready to start. One example of proper handling and storage of 11769 tubes that I dont see often when I see pictures people post of their tubes online or posted in an ebay ad, is that there is no ESD protection, usualy a small block of ESD protective foam, pressed onto the pins on the pcb on the end of the pigtail that plugs into the 14's manual gain circuit. Something that is important and will prevent possible damage to the tubes power supply, but isnt something a person would likey think or assume they should have on the pins when tube is out of the housing or being stored long term while not in a housing, but will protect against damage that is expensive to repair. I rebuild tubes all the time as a service offered and have seen alot of preventable damage that ultimately was sustained due to the lack of small seemingly unimportant things being overlooked. These wouldnt have been an issue if the TM had been studied to learn about the many important preparations that are in the TM and are in there for good reason.
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I think both of you guys are partially right. It is pretty butt-simple to assemble, but you can fuck it up, if you try hard enough. I have replaced all the parts but the tube, by simply noting where everything was and reassembling it back that way. That being said, I think it is very good advice to read up on how it's supposed to be done, rather than relying on luck. The reason I say you're both right is because on the one hand, if a guy is reasonably competent, he can pull this off. So yeah a good portion of DIY projects work out OK. But on the other hand, if you're the guy repairing the fuck-ups, you get to see where the guy, who isn't so mechanically inclined, managed to cock something up. So you realize it is possible to do it wrong if you aren't up to the task; there are DIY projects that break bad.
So this is a very good (side) discussion between you two guys which points out the ease and complexity of this task. Some people can do this, some can't. Some would say it's easy, some would be challenged to do it right. The key is the individual. |
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I think both of you guys are partially right. It is pretty butt-simple to assemble, but you can fuck it up, if you try hard enough. I have replaced all the parts but the tube, by simply noting where everything was and reassembling it back that way. That being said, I think it is very good advice to read up on how it's supposed to be done, rather than relying on luck. The reason I say you're both right is because on the one hand, if a guy is reasonably competent, he can pull this off. So yeah a good portion of DIY projects work out OK. But on the other hand, if you're the guy repairing the fuck-ups, you get to see where the guy, who isn't so mechanically inclined, managed to cock something up. So you realize it is possible to do it wrong if you aren't up to the task; there are DIY projects that break bad. So this is a very good (side) discussion between you two guys which points out the ease and complexity of this task. Some people can do this, some can't. Some would say it's easy, some would be challenged to do it right. The key is the individual. View Quote |
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I wonder, does NGI use the same housings as TNVC? I assume so, but I figured it would be worth the ask.
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Yes Sir, sure does. All Mil Spec including the all important glass on both ends built in the same facilty and same TNVC personnel. View Quote |
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