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Posted: 5/19/2005 11:12:43 AM EST
Has anyone tried this I think it might work. What I found is very interesting. Look at the picture of the actual ump lower.



Now look at the pictures of the TN grease gun and UMP conversions.





Finally, the regular UMP


This looks like it could be a simple thing to do if you had a grease gun kit already. Simply hack off that back piece and drill a hole. The best part would be you could use your grease gun lower as a guide for the whole thing.

My only question here is to make sure the lowers coming from these different places dont have any sort of auto parts in them. This would be bad. Other than that I would think this conversion would make more sense for people already with SBRs than a TN conversion or the TE conversion. Main advantage is that you could swap out lowers and go grease gun or UMP mag and not have to worry about replaceing the stock.

Please someone let me know what they think
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:35:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 11:38:49 AM EST by bones21]
Great idea, but I am thinking NO !

1st you have to remember that those are grease gun magazines, thus the lower is different and so was the modification to the USC magwell ( if any )

2nd, if there was no modification to the USC magwell for the TN lower, then you would have to modify it for the UMP lower regardless because of the double stacked magazines...

3rd, UMP lower = foreign part. I don't know how many US parts were used in the TN conversion, but if they used the exact amount, then you would have to trade out another stock USC part to compensate for the UMP lower ( all that '89 EO bullshit again)

I'd say it would be possible, but it wouldn't be as easy as you are thinking.

I can tell you one thing though.... TE is charging too much for their conversion.
I mean they are basically charging 600+ bucks to put on a 5 dollar aluminum block !!!!

That is highway robbery !

Of course they fix the magwell issue and exchange the fire control parts, but that is still way over priced for what it is.

For 625 dollars I would expect a Pro dye job, UMP slot cuts, the UMP conversion, and a TE supplied UMP lower....

Now that would add up to a decent 625, but all they do is dremel, exchange control parts and add an aluminum block.
They don't even have mags, lowers, or stocks on hand for customers.

So far this is custom work so the price should be higher ( not in the 600 dollar range though ), if they start doing non-NFA conversions, then that price had better drop else it would be pointless to use them.

With that said... I think TE does an amazing job of putting the parts together and I have supported them in the past.... I love it when a US company finds a way around retarted US and foreign guidlines. I just think that TE is robbing people on this conversion.

I mean how much could a block of AL & "gunsmith" work really cost ???

I love you TE..... but 625 dollars, give me a break !

Highjack over



ETA : KogaShuko, if you figure it out let us know.... It would have to be way cheaper than a TN or TE UMP conversion... so I say good luck if you try it
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 12:05:16 PM EST
I posted this on the HKpro boards too. According to the top notch add their kit is a moddified UMP lower.

You are correct about the parts count issue. That is only an issue if your weapon isnt an NFA weapon. Rather it be a pistol converted to a AOW or a SBR it doesnt matter parts count is no longer an issue. This would be the route you would go if you already had an SBRed weapon or if you only wanted to pay the $60 to get you barrel choped and threaded to match your USP tac so you can use the same suppressor.

I would like to find someone in VA that actually has a UMP or UMP lower that I can look at and compare. If not I guess I can always buy one and if it looks too far off I can sell it.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 4:51:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/20/2005 5:25:00 AM EST by Skully]
Hello, I'm Jeff from Tactical Excellence.
It appears bones21 thinks my prices are a little high, so I feel I have some explaining to do.

From what I have been able to figure, there are around 5000 USCs in the country give or take 1000. Not everyone wants to do modifications to theirs and there are other companies offering different modifications for the USC. That leaves a very small market for me. Because of this, it is not economical for my company to do a large run of parts for these conversions. We have tried doing pre-orders for projects before with miserable results. So with this conversion, we built parts for each conversion as they are ordered.
We use 7075 aluminum for our conversion block. The minimum amount we can buy at a time covers 2 conversions. With shipping, the aluminum is $180.
The block requires several machining steps from several sides. Doing each set of parts at a time means higher cost then the per unit cost of doing a run of parts. The parts for the hinge are welded to the block with the stock latch and are further machined. That's more machining cost and welding cost. All parts are then anodized. More cost.
That's the conversion block. There are a few other parts we make for the conversion. More cost there.
Now there is the modification to the UMP lower to work with the USC receiver. Hooks are opened up. UMP parts are replaced with USC parts. The place where the auto sear went has a block installed to make ATF happy and keep things from breaking if the trigger is accidentally pulled when the lower is off the rifle. This all takes time to do. I admit I charge for my time.
When all is finished I don't make as much of a profit as you might believe. I only expected to sell 5 of these conversions. I wanted to make something available to the public so I would have something to show for the years I have been developing parts and conversions for the USC. These conversions don't pay the bills for the shop. They are something I'm proud to share with other HK fans. So far Tactical Excellence has sold 8 conversions and many more say they are waiting for us to offer a conversion for non-sbr USCs.
If you think my pricing is too high then here is my challenge. Find somewhere to get the 7075 aluminum for less and a machinist that will machine all the parts for less. I'll still do all the conversion work and share the profits with you.

Now to answer KogaShuko's questions.
Yes, a UMP lower can be machined to fit the TN conversion block. That is what TN does with their conversion. I do not know what other steps are involved in their conversion. You would need to contact them to find out.

If your USC has already been converted for grease gun magazines, the material removed from the receiver may be enough to use the UMP magazines or you might have to remove a little more from the rear of the magazine hole. Several of the conversions we have done have been on USCs that were converted to GG mags. 1 did not need more material removed and the others did. All work just fine with the new conversion.

If using the TN stock on your USC you would need 2 more U.S. made parts to be parts compliant.

Tactical Excellence is developing parts for U.S. compliance so we can offer conversions to non-sbr owners. We are also gearing up to dye receivers and cut vents.

For more information on the Tactical Excellence conversion, please visit our web page and click on the USC conversion button.

www.tacticalexcellence.com/


Link Posted: 5/20/2005 7:09:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Skully:
Hello, I'm Jeff from Tactical Excellence.
It appears bones21 thinks my prices are a little high, so I feel I have some explaining to do.

From what I have been able to figure, there are around 5000 USCs in the country give or take 1000. Not everyone wants to do modifications to theirs and there are other companies offering different modifications for the USC. That leaves a very small market for me. Because of this, it is not economical for my company to do a large run of parts for these conversions. We have tried doing pre-orders for projects before with miserable results. So with this conversion, we built parts for each conversion as they are ordered.
We use 7075 aluminum for our conversion block. The minimum amount we can buy at a time covers 2 conversions. With shipping, the aluminum is $180.
The block requires several machining steps from several sides. Doing each set of parts at a time means higher cost then the per unit cost of doing a run of parts. The parts for the hinge are welded to the block with the stock latch and are further machined. That's more machining cost and welding cost. All parts are then anodized. More cost.
That's the conversion block. There are a few other parts we make for the conversion. More cost there.
Now there is the modification to the UMP lower to work with the USC receiver. Hooks are opened up. UMP parts are replaced with USC parts. The place where the auto sear went has a block installed to make ATF happy and keep things from breaking if the trigger is accidentally pulled when the lower is off the rifle. This all takes time to do. I admit I charge for my time.
When all is finished I don't make as much of a profit as you might believe. I only expected to sell 5 of these conversions. I wanted to make something available to the public so I would have something to show for the years I have been developing parts and conversions for the USC. These conversions don't pay the bills for the shop. They are something I'm proud to share with other HK fans. So far Tactical Excellence has sold 8 conversions and many more say they are waiting for us to offer a conversion for non-sbr USCs.
If you think my pricing is too high then here is my challenge. Find somewhere to get the 7075 aluminum for less and a machinist that will machine all the parts for less. I'll still do all the conversion work and share the profits with you.

Now to answer KogaShuko's questions.
Yes, a UMP lower can be machined to fit the TN conversion block. That is what TN does with their conversion. I do not know what other steps are involved in their conversion. You would need to contact them to find out.

If your USC has already been converted for grease gun magazines, the material removed from the receiver may be enough to use the UMP magazines or you might have to remove a little more from the rear of the magazine hole. Several of the conversions we have done have been on USCs that were converted to GG mags. 1 did not need more material removed and the others did. All work just fine with the new conversion.

If using the TN stock on your USC you would need 2 more U.S. made parts to be parts compliant.

Tactical Excellence is developing parts for U.S. compliance so we can offer conversions to non-sbr owners. We are also gearing up to dye receivers and cut vents.

For more information on the Tactical Excellence conversion, please visit our web page and click on the USC conversion button.

www.tacticalexcellence.com/





Jeff I am just waiting to get up enough money for the conversion itself as I already have my parts ready to go. I was gearing up for the TN conversion but when I saw a few of the TE ones on the net I knew who had the better one out there. BTW, thanks for answering all my e-mails and questions and be on the lookout for my next one stating that I'm ready for the conversion to take place. Jim
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 8:18:57 AM EST
Jim, I look forward to adding you to the list of Tactical Excellence customers.
Let us know when we can do a conversion for you.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 10:36:16 AM EST
Skully - I too am waiting to do your conversion, however, I am just waiting on my Form 1 to be approved. It has been out about 2 months now, so my guess is I have about a month to go.



Link Posted: 5/20/2005 2:19:29 PM EST
I really like the TE and the TN conversions. They are both nice and they both have advantages in my opinion. My only point was that I have the grease gun conversion already and it makes more sense for me to do a mod to a UMP lower than to purchase the conversions. I would purchase just a converted UMP lower from TN but I am sure they will not do that for fear of helping other conversions. It isnt that I dont like the setups available but I just dont want them and they do not offer a different kit that has just a lower.

Now had I not invested in the grease gun mag conversion already I would totally look at the TE conversion. It looks really nice and uses the real hk parts.

Link Posted: 5/20/2005 6:18:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
My only point was that I have the grease gun conversion already and it makes more sense for me to do a mod to a UMP lower than to purchase the conversions. I would purchase just a converted UMP lower from TN but I am sure they will not do that for fear of helping other conversions.

Now had I not invested in the grease gun mag conversion already I would totally look at the TE conversion. It looks really nice and uses the real hk parts.




Thank you for the kind words. Because you already have the grease gun magazine conversion, it would be more economical for you to do a TN type conversion.

I wish you luck on your project and let us know how it turns out.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:50:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 5:55:25 AM EST by jimtash9]

Originally Posted By Skully:
Jim, I look forward to adding you to the list of Tactical Excellence customers.
Let us know when we can do a conversion for you.



It'll be sometime next month hopefully. The last gunshow I went to, I got to talking with a Class 3 who had two FA UMPs on his table that he let me "fondle" so to speak. I saw how the stock is held closed by the hook next to the ejection port on the side of the receiver and also how H&K pins the lower to the upper. The thing I don't like about the TN version is that the pin is placed on the lower while the real UMP has the pin going through the upper receiver. Your version uses neither from what I can see and so cosmetically yours is better. Another plus is that there are no modifications done to the bolt carrier like TN does with their conversion. So when I get it back, I plan on taking it up to the gunshow and comparing the two as even the Class 3 guy was interested in seeing it.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:06:06 AM EST
Skully,

Thanks for the detailed explanation of your conversion.

Like I've said before, Tactical Excellence does a kick ass job on these conversions. I was just in rant mode for over priced H&Ks and after market products

I still think the price is steep, but you make some good points and hell... it's a business ! If people are willing to pay
that price, and they are, then more power to you and them both

Best of luck with your conversions and thanks for your candor.

-Bones
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 12:55:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 12:59:08 PM EST by thebomber]

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
I really like the TE and the TN conversions. They are both nice and they both have advantages in my opinion. My only point was that I have the grease gun conversion already and it makes more sense for me to do a mod to a UMP lower than to purchase the conversions. I would purchase just a converted UMP lower from TN but I am sure they will not do that for fear of helping other conversions. It isnt that I dont like the setups available but I just dont want them and they do not offer a different kit that has just a lower.

Now had I not invested in the grease gun mag conversion already I would totally look at the TE conversion. It looks really nice and uses the real hk parts.




I was able to sell my GG conversion parts for $290 and my USC barrel for what I paid for a UMP barrel.

Bones.....gotta disagree with you on your comments. No offense but you evidently aren't familiar with the quality of Jeff's conversion and the amount of work that goes into it. As Jeff indicated, there are numerous processes that go into the conversion.

Material procurement
machining
welding
grindi­ng
more machining
bead blasting
finishing
assembly
shipment­

The TN conversion is inferior to Jeff's. Jeff conversion is nearly 100% HK were as TN's isn't. I compared my conversion to a real UMP and they were virtually identical. The only thing missing is the stock retention hook. I solved this with a very small black velcro dot. It's hardly noticeable.

There are very few USCs that will get converted. The ones that are all HK will be worth more in the end. You're currently building a MP5 clone and I thought you had spec'd real HK parts. I chose to do the same.

One other way to look at it is not how much you're spending but how much your investing. It also has a high CDI factor and draws a lot of attention at the range. More than a standard MP5.

FWIW

Bomber
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 4:54:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 4:55:40 PM EST by jimtash9]

Originally Posted By thebomber:
I was able to sell my GG conversion parts for $290 and my USC barrel for what I paid for a UMP barrel.

Bones.....gotta disagree with you on your comments. No offense but you evidently aren't familiar with the quality of Jeff's conversion and the amount of work that goes into it. As Jeff indicated, there are numerous processes that go into the conversion.

Material procurement
machining
welding
grindi­ng
more machining
bead blasting
finishing
assembly
shipment­

The TN conversion is inferior to Jeff's. Jeff conversion is nearly 100% HK were as TN's isn't. I compared my conversion to a real UMP and they were virtually identical. The only thing missing is the stock retention hook. I solved this with a very small black velcro dot. It's hardly noticeable.

There are very few USCs that will get converted. The ones that are all HK will be worth more in the end. You're currently building a MP5 clone and I thought you had spec'd real HK parts. I chose to do the same.

One other way to look at it is not how much you're spending but how much your investing. It also has a high CDI factor and draws a lot of attention at the range. More than a standard MP5.

FWIW

Bomber



Seeing your USC made up my mind for me bomber. Plus a lot of BS that I've had to put up with over my SW-52 really swayed me to TE. I don't really want to have to send my USC back if it jams and pay even more money to get it to work right like the "X" upgrade on my 52. I will be laughing my ass off if that indeed does happen with their conversion and be thankful it's not me.
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