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Posted: 8/18/2006 3:23:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2006 3:24:03 PM EDT by eggrolly]
All,

I have been making gear more or less for the last 4 years, after getting fed up with availability and not finding the right piece of kit.... one thing has continually cropped up during this time and that is... Gear use is for naught if you dont have the shooting proficiency/ability that warrants carriage of multiple magazines & equipment.

I would STRONGLY suggest & encourage looking at top notch training, and ammunition to support said training before blowing untold blingwads on the latest gucci gear, whether it be name brand, home grown or knockoff. You would be surprised at the amount of gear that gets shed during a course.

There are some here that believe that untold amounts of tacti-bling will bring with it crutch for proficiency, like a Harry Potter-esque Invisibility cloak, it WILL NOT. Gear only supports a skill, it is NOT a skill in itself. Through the mastering of skill and maintenance of proficiency will you be able to readily identify what WILL and WON'T satisfy mission / personal goals. *think, do you REALLY need the latest tactical vest/harness if all you'll be doing is going to the range once a month?*

Given the choice between the latest gucci gear and training, (speaking for myself only) it will be training EACH and every time.

EGG
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 3:57:53 PM EDT
Amen! Well Said!
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 4:51:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 5:44:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2006 5:45:36 PM EDT by eastcoastshooter]
edit** Thats what keeps the EE boards alive !
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 5:45:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 5:46:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2006 5:48:43 PM EDT by SilentType]
Well I agree...you've got to have different gear though for different situations. Like a tool box that needs to be filled with the right tools for different jobs so should you fill your gear closet.

If SHTF and I have to make my way into the deep woods on foot I'm not going to go with the CIRAS (It is just too darn hot and heavy with plates and all) and instead wear my RACK as it lets my back breath and the bib comes down if I want it. However, in an urban protect the home situation I like the CIRAS and can deal with it as long as I'm not adding a backpack or any additional gear it is an asset and not a hinderance. Once in awhile I'll take off the pouches leaving just my camelback and go running through the high school cross-country trails with it on working up a real good sweat in the process.

I do think it is funny though when you go to the carbine courses and see old guys with beer bellys trying to hump a tactical vest throughout an 80-90 degree day. Plus, when you've got all that extra gear on your waist and chest via the pouches you have to learn how to go prone and work corners with that stuff on.

I hope at some point they come out with body armor that is breathable and light weight, but strong enough to live up to the current SAPI IV or better.
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 5:57:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2006 5:59:38 PM EDT by SilentType]

Originally Posted By TonyF:
I'd even go a step further.

I've been saying this for the last year or so but I curse the global war on terror for the effect it has had on the training industry. We've all heard / read the dictum to *train as you will fight* and in so doing we've always encouraged the Patrol LEO or .mil student to come to class with their duty gear as that is most likely what they will be wearing if they are ever involved in a deadly force encounter.

OTOH, we now have civilian students showing up in courses in all manner of battle gear. I guess it's OK if they have the discretionary income and it doesn't cut into their budget for training but I'm betting in most cases that those with that kind of money are the exception rather than the norm. And I've read the argument that carrying a bunch of mags means more shooting. I suppose that may be so but it comes with a price.

I see a strange contradiction between the philosophy of *reality based training* and civilian students donning plate carriers and toting a dozen or more magazines. Outside of hurricane Andrew in '92, can anyone point to a situation where a civilian with a carbine in a deadly force encounter had cause to fire more than a mag or two?

Even Eagle Industries is now marketing an LE version of the Paul Howe rig with three (count them 1-2-3) FB single cell magazine pouches.

Rant off.

+1 Egg.


Umm, yeah... I can think of a lot of incidents throughout history when civilians needed more than a couple of mags...hundreds if we are talking throughout history and the world. But, I'll just list some incidents in our nation's history where civilians may have wish for or did indeed have a lot of ammunition on their person.

Nativist Period 1700's-1860
1829: Cincinnati, Ohio Riots begun by Whites to terrorize the Black community resulted in thousands of Blacks leaving for Canada.
1829: Charlestown Anti-Catholic Riots
1834: Massachusetts Convent Burning
1835: Five Points Riot
1836: Cincinnati, Ohio A pro-slavery riot took place
1841: Cincinnati, Ohio White Irish-descendant and Irish immigrant dock workers rioted against Black dock workers. When the Black dock workers banded together to defend their community from the approaching Whites, the White rioters retreated and then commandeered a 6-pound cannon and shot it through the streets of Cincinnati.
1844: Philadelphia Anti-Catholic Riots (May 6-8/July 5-8)
1849: Astor Place Riot
1851: Hoboken Anti-German Riot
1855: Louisville Anti-German Riots

Civil War Period 1861-1865
1863: New York City Draft Riot

Reconstruction Period: 1865 - 1877
1866: New Orleans, Louisiana
1866: Memphis, Tennessee
1868: Pulaski, Tennessee
1868: Opelousas, Louisiana
1868: Camilla, Georgia
1870: Meridian, Mississippi
1870: Eutaw, Alabama
1870: Laurens, South Carolina
1870: New York City Orange Riot
1871: Second New York City Orange Riot
1871: Los Angeles Anti-Chinese Riot
1891: New Orleans Anti-Italian Riot
1873: Colfax, Louisiana
1874: Vicksburg, Mississippi
1874: New Orleans, Louisiana
1874: Coushatta, Louisiana
1875: Yazoo City, Mississippi
1875: Clinton, Mississippi
1876: Hamburg, South Carolina
1876: Ellenton, South Carolina

Jim Crow Period: 1890 - 1914
1884 Cincinnati, Ohio The deadliest riot in U.S. history took place. It was started by a predominantley white mob that spanned the social-economic spectrum in reaction to their anger over the failure of a white-immigrant co-defendant to be convicted of murder in a sensationalized trial while their non-white was sentenced to death.
1898: Wilmington Race Riot
1898: Lake City, North Carolina
1898: Greenwood County, South Carolina
1900: New Orleans, Louisiana : Robert Charles Riot
1900: New York City, New York
1906: Atlanta, Georgia
1906: Brownsville, Texas
1908: Springfield, Illinois
1910: Nationwide riots following the heavyweight championship fight between Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries in Reno, Nevada on July 4

War and Inter-War Period: 1914 - 1945
1917: East St. Louis -1917 East St. Louis Riot
1917: Chester, Pennsylvania
1917: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
1917: Houston, Texas
Red Summer of 1919
1919: Washington, D.C.
1919: Chicago, Illinois
1919: Omaha, Nebraska
1919: Charleston, South Carolina
1919: Longview, Texas
1919: Knoxville, Tenn - 1919 Knoxville Riot
1919: Elaine, Arkansas
1921: Tulsa (1921) - Tulsa Race Riot of 1921
1923: Rosewood, Florida
1935: Harlem Race Riot
1943: Detroit Race Riot
1943: Harlem Race Riot
1943: Zoot Suit Riots, Los Angeles, California

Civil Rights and Black Power Movement's Period: 1955 - 1977
1964: Harlem, NY
1965: Watts
1966: Hough Riots, Cleveland, Ohio
1967: Detroit
1967: Newark
1968: Nationwide riots following the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr.
1970: Jackson State killings
1971: Camden, N.J. (1971) - Camden Riots
1972: Escambia High riots; Pensacola, Florida

Modern
1980: Miami
1980: Chattanooga, Tenn - 1980 Chattanooga Riot
1992: Los Angeles In a reaction to the acquittal of all LA police officers involved in the video-taped beating of the unarmed, outnumbered, and crawling, Rodney King riots broke out mainly involving Black youth in the Black neighborhood.
2001: 2001 Cincinnati Riots In a reaction to the acquittal of Steven Roach after the fatal shooting of an unarmed young Black male, Timothy Thomas, during a foot pursuit, riots broke out over the span of a few days.


And the above are just riots not natural disasters so YES, I can see the need to be armed to the teeth as a civilian and trained. I can also see how in most of the situations above, if not all, a civilian would be justified in using multiple rounds in defense.
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 7:07:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TonyF:
I'd even go a step further.

I've been saying this for the last year or so but I curse the global war on terror for the effect it has had on the training industry. We've all heard / read the dictum to *train as you will fight* and in so doing we've always encouraged the Patrol LEO or .mil student to come to class with their duty gear as that is most likely what they will be wearing if they are ever involved in a deadly force encounter.

OTOH, we now have civilian students showing up in courses in all manner of battle gear. I guess it's OK if they have the discretionary income and it doesn't cut into their budget for training but I'm betting in most cases that those with that kind of money are the exception rather than the norm. And I've read the argument that carrying a bunch of mags means more shooting. I suppose that may be so but it comes with a price.

I see a strange contradiction between the philosophy of *reality based training* and civilian students donning plate carriers and toting a dozen or more magazines. Outside of hurricane Andrew in '92, can anyone point to a situation where a civilian with a carbine in a deadly force encounter had cause to fire more than a mag or two?

Even Eagle Industries is now marketing an LE version of the Paul Howe rig with three (count them 1-2-3) FB single cell magazine pouches.

Rant off.

+1 Egg.



Because some of us are concerned about more than just a break in or a few looters
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 7:58:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2006 8:03:04 PM EDT by TonyF]
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 8:08:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2006 8:10:43 PM EDT by eggrolly]
so rattle off dates and names of events in history - what perpetrated these incidents who were involved, who was affected, how could they have avoided situations how can their particpation in said events be mitigated?

As a homeowner/property owner in an urban situation, you should be VERY aware of the legalities and the drawn lines. Why, because there will ALWAYS be more of them than there are of you. This is one course of concern and a lot of times not considered to the fullest extent. GEAR factors into this very late into this.

How many of you have prepared for the worst? How many have you actually exercised from a fully operational perspective with a full-on kit-out out to a self-determined evacuation point? Have you coordinated with family? Friends? Have you all of your vital documentation for yourself, family?

How have you prepared for relocation? Either by choice or necessity? It cracks me up to read the so-called bug out lists that people have come up in the past... CANS of soup, multiple pairs of JEANS, etc etc. Or another example is how someone saw a picture of some uber-tacticalsubmarinesquirrel wearing a piece of kit that they themselves MUST have. Why? Do you have the training or need that is required by that particular piece of kit?

There is a focus of equipping to address the concerns of now, to the limit of their training to that point, what about the next level, how would your mindset change if there is a change in your personal situation? Whats even more of concern is the notion that people are COMFORTABLE with their level or lack of training with their equipment that they have ascribed to.

The point being, gear should NOT be the focus, it should be the development of MINDSET, experience, plans of action/contingencies that should be on the forefront of everyones mind. The gear is secondary and will come to you when you have developed your abilities and planned courses of action.

Dont get me wrong, I like building gear, what I dont like is the notion of people getting gear because it looks cool, yet they themselves have no practical need (although perceived) for it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2006 8:47:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2006 9:15:36 PM EDT by 99superduty]
.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 1:04:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2006 1:05:53 AM EDT by terdferguson]

Originally Posted By eggrolly:
so rattle off dates and names of events in history - what perpetrated these incidents who were involved, who was affected, how could they have avoided situations how can their particpation in said events be mitigated?

As a homeowner/property owner in an urban situation, you should be VERY aware of the legalities and the drawn lines. Why, because there will ALWAYS be more of them than there are of you. This is one course of concern and a lot of times not considered to the fullest extent. GEAR factors into this very late into this.

How many of you have prepared for the worst? How many have you actually exercised from a fully operational perspective with a full-on kit-out out to a self-determined evacuation point? Have you coordinated with family? Friends? Have you all of your vital documentation for yourself, family?

How have you prepared for relocation? Either by choice or necessity? It cracks me up to read the so-called bug out lists that people have come up in the past... CANS of soup, multiple pairs of JEANS, etc etc. Or another example is how someone saw a picture of some uber-tacticalsubmarinesquirrel wearing a piece of kit that they themselves MUST have. Why? Do you have the training or need that is required by that particular piece of kit?

There is a focus of equipping to address the concerns of now, to the limit of their training to that point, what about the next level, how would your mindset change if there is a change in your personal situation? Whats even more of concern is the notion that people are COMFORTABLE with their level or lack of training with their equipment that they have ascribed to.

The point being, gear should NOT be the focus, it should be the development of MINDSET, experience, plans of action/contingencies that should be on the forefront of everyones mind. The gear is secondary and will come to you when you have developed your abilities and planned courses of action.

Dont get me wrong, I like building gear, what I dont like is the notion of people getting gear because it looks cool, yet they themselves have no practical need (although perceived) for it.


For the record, I probably agree with you. But, the same thing could be said for over 90% of the rifles on this board. I mean really, how many civilians really need a $3,000 carbine with lasers, night vision, suppressors, etc.? People want what they want. It's a sort of "homage". We all have a lot of things in our lives that we don't really need. People all have their own way of passing the time, so to speak.

To each their own, the more the merrier, live and let live, etc., etc. (besides, it puts food on your table, lol).
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 1:14:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terdferguson:
I mean really, how many civilians really need a $3,000 carbine with lasers, night vision, suppressors, etc.?



I do!
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 1:20:37 AM EDT
Another thought came to me after posting. Most of the gear owners probably only need a decent belt setup with a handgun, a couple of spare mags for said handgun, a couple of spare mags for the rifle, a decent knife, a decent multi tool, and a decent light and maybe some water (a Nalgene or something similar).

The above setup would probably cover anything you are likely to face in the U.S. short of an invading foreign army, zombie infestation, or the inevitable roving hordes of road warriors surely to come in an apocalypse type scenario.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:57:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 2:07:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
I for one completely despise the word "need" when used in ANY discussion/situation dealing with firearms, gear, and training.

"To each according to their need" is straight from The Communist Manifesto. In this society, I also hate to hear people tell me what "I need".
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 6:38:27 PM EDT

I just love the attitude that civilian equals incapable of being able to handle yourself with tactical gear...very funny. I've been in the military and am now a civilian and I have to say that I am a much better shot now than I ever was while on active duty. I have two good friends that haven't served a single day in the military, but could put a lot of military Spec Ops guys to shame in terms of physical condition (you see SEAL recruiters all the time at Iron Man events and other endurance competitions trying to recruit civilians for a reason). As for police officers they often dress-up as part-time SWAT cops with less training than a lot of folks on this board have had.

I agree that a person needs to train in a physical manner and become comfortable with the tactical gear that they wish to wear. However, I disagree that a civilian would never have any cause to carry extra ammunition...yes, even 10 mags. Maybe it is just me, but I like to be prepared and would rather have gear available than find myself in need reaching out for nothing. Perhaps some of the above individuals think that only the police or military should have a CIRAS or MICH, but I'll also wager they think the same about assault weapons.

There is a Second Amendment for a reason and it isn't so you can hunt deer folks. An armed citizen is the hallmark of any real democracy and if a civilian is not well equipped as well armed than really what is the point?


Link Posted: 8/19/2006 7:03:34 PM EDT
AND you have completely missed the point
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 7:20:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2006 7:22:09 PM EDT by Pilk]
Well said Egg....

I have and use a tac-vest and several ruck sacks, I have been under fire, but I have also spent THOUSANDS of my own money, as well as what my departments have spent in training to use the arms at my disposal.......FWIW the only kit I have purchased prior to actually having a true need was my Blackhawk special ops medic bag....I had a bag, but just thought that was the sh*^. that was many moons ago....the BH bag was a new idea then.

anyhow, very good point.


Pilk
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 5:39:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 8:40:22 AM EDT
My opinion is that unless you are some sort of collector, strictly speaking, then you should train with whatever gear you buy for whatever situation(s) you anticipate having to deal with.

Having said that, if your most likely scenario is a hurricane that knocks out power for 2 days in a nice neighborhood then it could be argued that you don't need a CIRAS with soft inserts and plates, 12 rifle mags, 8 pistol mags, etc. etc.

This much I would think is obvious to anyone with the ability to think objectively.

However, while realizing the above to be sound logic, I would not be so presumptuous as to tell anyone what they do or do not need. I don't much care if Johnny Highspeed in Poughkeepsie realizes he doesn't know how to get his Paraclete RAV on when the shit really does hit the fan.

Buy whatever you want, for whatever reason you want (including none). The dealers will thank you and you'll be happy. Whatever comes after that is no one's concern but your own.
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 9:04:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2006 9:05:26 AM EDT by Dawg180]
Training is paramount.

Weapons and equipment are tools, not talismans.

That being said, I would rather have armor and plenty of ammo and mags (and training) and not need it, then find that the situation I never though would occur actually happens and I am not equipped for it.

Here is a 'joke' for you: How do you spot a tactial gear poser? 12 mags, full armor, and no first aid kit...
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 9:32:44 AM EDT


Here is a 'joke' for you: How do you spot a tactial gear poser? 12 mags, full armor, and no first aid kit...


how true!
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 12:35:41 PM EDT
Once I got cooler gear... I shot way better............... And Women found me a lot more irresistible...

I think What Egg was saying is don't loose sight of the tree's thru the forrest. Gear is great and I love it myself, but the main focus should be on training and Mindset if you take your shooting serious.
I have a Plate carrier and Armor. Do I have any illusions that I will need it on a daily basis??? I hope I never need to use it, but like Hurricanes, Tornado's, Earthquakes and car accidents, it's insurance cause something bad only has to happen to you and your family ONCE in your life, and I don't know about the rest of you.... but I suck at predicting the future........

I make small modifications to my guns and gears and only when I deem it an improvement that will enhance my performance and that's it. Chances are good my SOTech Plate carrier will be out of fashion in a few years (Like it already is now), but I'll still be running with it, cause it works for my needs and I've trained with it and feel comfortable with it.

Don't buy gear just cause it's the latest fashion rage... buy it cause it fits a need for what you want it to do.
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 1:01:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 6:01:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eggrolly:
AND you have completely missed the point


+1

I'd rather be a well-trained marksman equipped with only a C&R boltgun and a pouch full of stripper clips than an un-trained doofus with no skills and all the latest Gucci Kit.

Luckily, I get to go to all the high-speed training AND have all the CDI gear.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 3:32:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terdferguson:
Another thought came to me after posting. Most of the gear owners probably only need a decent belt setup with a handgun, a couple of spare mags for said handgun, a couple of spare mags for the rifle, a decent knife, a decent multi tool, and a decent light and maybe some water (a Nalgene or something similar).

The above setup would probably cover anything you are likely to face in the U.S. short of an invading foreign army, zombie infestation, or the inevitable roving hordes of road warriors surely to come in an apocalypse type scenario.


Thats pretty much all I have and can afford. I also don't like having a ton of junk hanging off my body and my AR15, I like to be mobile without a lot of drag. If theirs ever such a scenario where I need a ton of loaded magazines to single handedly defend myself, I'll be retreating from it instead of running into it. I'll let the gucci guys have thier fun. I can scavenge the expensive loot off the bodies later.
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