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Posted: 7/5/2006 10:36:04 PM EDT
I had a couple criteria in mind while drawing this:
I think the M231 stock was an inspiration of simplicity based around it's independent function outside the buffer but the M231 wire job doesn't offer what I'd want in a stock.
I want to make one for myself but I'd like some feedback if anyone's interested in contributing to what I have already laid out. Crits & Comments welcome.. however off the wall or sage.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3630/cantdecide1ci.jpg

1) Functional - does what a stock should basically do
2) Minimal - light on materials, least amount of space (adds about 1")
3) Freedom - easy to maneuver. buttplate doesn't stick down into wrist while using as pistol (like an MP5 type stock/others do) I just want it out of the way-period.
4) Sturdy - not quite tough enough to bust in doors but definately made to last
5) Doesn't interfere with operation of my AR
6) Installs in seconds (on some buffer tubes)

Options:
1) adjustable cheek piece (forward/back~1.5", up/down~1/2")
2) adjustable stock (4 positions) simple operation with button on bracket)

Known Limits:
1) Forward assist. Design needs a refinement to accomodate that detail (my pistol doesn't have one) and that's why I started thinking about the cheek piece, because the rails have to go down a half inch.
2) It doesn't have a lot of reach but any more and the rails get in the way of the ejection port.
Link Posted: 7/5/2006 8:40:48 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 7/5/2006 8:48:25 PM EDT



Very nice!
Link Posted: 7/5/2006 9:31:22 PM EDT
I personally find your design very appealing.  As a helicopter pilot in the conventional military forces, it steams me that my PDW is a fricking M9...  For years now, I have been filling out surveys and asking for a true PDW modified carbine.  The XM-8 was going to have that sort of modularity, but I would gladly settle for a proven AR-style design that could be used in the same way...
Link Posted: 7/5/2006 9:46:16 PM EDT
Pretty!   Too bad my state doesn't allow a SBR...... nor a 'stocked' pistol.

I'm sure your product idea would sell, only "issue" is starting capital.

Link Posted: 7/5/2006 9:58:32 PM EDT
I think it looks sweet and I would buy one if they were available.
Link Posted: 7/5/2006 10:27:05 PM EDT
What CAD program are you using to draw that?
Link Posted: 7/5/2006 10:35:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/5/2006 10:38:22 PM EDT
How about building a block that would fit onto a buffer tube that is compatible with an off the shelf folding Uzi stock?   These are at CDNN for under $40

Link Posted: 7/5/2006 11:07:06 PM EDT
Pitch it to Bushmaster, that setup would be perfect for there carbon pistols.
Link Posted: 7/5/2006 11:28:49 PM EDT
Thanks for all the feedback so far.

JasonCook,
Thanks for giving this a push in the right direction (NFA sect).

jonoboy,
I'm using AutoCAD to draw the orthogonal and Lightwave to 'render' 3D views.

Mr45auto,
Thanks for the material/design reference. I took a look at the Uzi part and it's got a piece that looks promising but I don't know how much work I'd have cut out by making the rails Uzi stock fit around an Ar- buffer of the out until I measure an Uzi. It's either the same width or it's not.
The Uzi also doesn't fold the way I'd like mine to do (and I think I'm about do it in a way that it's going to be durable). Ultimately I consider it a resource for part of a part. Happens to be one I don't have (yet?) but I do have some quality aluminum to cut and I'm going to make this one mine all mine.
Definately like the sling mount on the Uzi. Is that on both sides? I should factor that function in too.. maybe just an adapter could work though.

adding another criteria right now: make inexpensively.

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/5310/cdnn1903314592641co.gif

Mr10anahaf,
I agree what I have in the original drawing would fit the Bushmaster carbon pistols just fine. It would fit in as being light weight too. For purposes of sharing the idea, I'd like it to fit as many different types as is mechanically reasonable to design. perhaps a few adapters to compensate for discrepencies in diameter.. or just jam a little shim in there. kidding. I have in mind a simple clamp so that this doesn't scratch up buffer tubes or put dents in them using set screws.

Link Posted: 7/5/2006 11:35:10 PM EDT
If you've got access to a milling machine I imagine you could adapt an aluminum block to the Uzi folder and then work on attatching that to a buffer tube.   I'd run a standard CAR buffer tube and cut it to the desired length and bolt it up to the notched rail on the bottom of the tube. You could then run the shorter length pistol buffer.   Sure it wouldnt push in or be adjustable for length but if you can set up the buffer tube at the length you want with the Uzi stock it would be a very solid setup for relatively little $$$.

If the buttplate sits too low, maybe cutting it and moving it a half inch or so higher would be helpful?

If you're unfamiliar with how the stock operates, you smack it downward and it scissors out to it's proper length.   It's actually an ingenious design.


Edited to correct the to into too ( damn grammar trolling my own post)
Link Posted: 7/6/2006 12:20:19 AM EDT
Mr45auto,
I see how that works now! That's a pretty neat Uzi gizmo.
I have no aversion to making modifications to something. I can mill it, cut it, weld it and make it happen. I'd just need to get one and tinker a bit. Suggestion duly noted.
I'll draw something up for that. I like that it's solid looking and could probably suffice to be used as an ice-axe in a pinch. Thanks.

Overall, I want to make a signature addition to my little collection with this fabrication and construct this entirely from things I have on hand (which is mostly aluminum and more aluminum). If this turned out to be an item that people really wanted to add to their accessories, (a few of you already mentioned that) I wouldn't want to have a dependency on another manufacturers supply chain or their distributors prices especially if I can have it made even better and of course, economically. This first one is just for the fun of it and I'm open to ideas.

Only standing my ground stating that most of all I want to build this thing for me but I'm asking all of you who might be reading this if you were me and you had come this far, what next?

I could add a bottle opener for a little more mass appeal.
Link Posted: 7/6/2006 5:02:14 PM EDT
some great ideas
Link Posted: 7/6/2006 5:04:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/6/2006 7:32:03 PM EDT
tag......love it
Link Posted: 7/7/2006 3:28:13 AM EDT
I would buy one now if you make, I WANT THAT RIGHT F'N NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!






Also, let me add................best post so far this month..
Link Posted: 7/7/2006 3:55:17 AM EDT
That looks very nice, what kind of buffer and spring are required for the short buffer tube?
Is that standard pistol?
Link Posted: 7/7/2006 5:58:34 AM EDT
Just my $0.02 after reading more......

The Uzi stock would not sit "In Line" with the styling of the AR. I think is would be odd since it would come off the gun at an angle. I also think the LOP of the Uzi carbine it a little long (I have long ass arms, but like a shorter LOP) and I think it would be even longer on an AR....maybe not.

The check piece on the original design will be in the way of the charging handle no matter where it would sit on the short buffer tube. It could rotate out of the way when charging the weapon, but who would want to have to do that.

P.S. I love the original one at the top of the page.....just noting some issues that may arise.
Link Posted: 7/7/2006 11:09:49 AM EDT
Everyone,
Trying to catch up. Thanks for all the thoughts and input! Was hoping folks might like it and see a future for it. I'm inspired to get this done because I really want one too! I'm fiddling with the design for spring tension action for the folding buttplate right now.. it works sort of like the lock on a folding knife> simple.
Seriously if y'all are interested, I'll make more than one (or have more made) as soon I get one working smoothly and affordably (for me - and I'm cheap). I want to get as much right as I can the first go around.

Punani,
The buffer tube shown is one like the Bushmaster pistols (no end cap)
I could easily set up the mount to fit around other types though using a two-piece bracket. This one slips on.

HK_DUDE,
Good point about the Uzi-mod. I was thinking the same sort of thing about how it might sit on the buffer after studying if for a bit. I suppose it could work for some..Not ruling it out as something to try someday (at least on paper).
Thanks for noticing the other little flaw in what I originally posted: the darn cheek piece.. Seriously though, it wouldn't be so little if it got in the way when one needs to giddy up and go in the heat of the moment and needs/wants to get a round off. Important to smooth that function over if I'm to keep that as part of the design. Hmm. I do like having the riser there but it's not a deal buster. As far as the charging handle goes..the stock does have to be opened to actuate it unless I made it so that it rolls around the tube along the barrel axis say, 180° (from twelve to six o'clock) and set it up to fit back into a detent once the system has been charged. Definately making me think about it differently.
Link Posted: 7/7/2006 9:06:25 PM EDT
As much as I would like to see this stock on one of my shooters the wire /arms or not clicking for me.


How are you making them stop in place and stop when fully extended?


You also might look at the concept of what MAC-10's use because the arms remind me so much of
eachother.

MAC-10's have a notch at each end, front and back where a detent stops them in place and holds them.


Link Posted: 7/7/2006 9:36:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/8/2006 11:28:31 AM EDT
rogue007,
It definately will click in place. I'm putting a couple notches on the rails and a push button release that has a rounded stainless pin to hold it in place in the mounting bracket. I'm making a fully extended stop but could add another couple along the way. However, the stock isn't very long so I don't see the need for many positions (opened & closed is a good start).

Sorry my sketches aren't particularly explicit but thanks for asking. They're purposefully over simplified to just illustrate the general idea. Hope I cleared things up describing my intentions. A picture is worth a thousand words though (good/bad).


David_Hineline,
I'm just going to keep my tolerances snug so there's no wiggle. Delrin inserts in the mount could keep it tight too and prevent metal-on-metal wear. As for materials, I'm using some 7075 T-6 aluminum that I have on hand but if this works like I want it to, I 'll use blackened, heat-treated steel for the finished piece: probably about as flexible as a quality 3/8" wrench.
That's a mighty fine idea for the charging handle.
Thanks for the intuition and experience> I'm not making this for a video game character if there had been any doubt.
Link Posted: 7/8/2006 1:03:34 PM EDT
VERY interesting.  
Link Posted: 7/18/2006 5:09:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2006 9:06:36 AM EDT
Pretty neat design, although you'd have to make uppers without FA/BD's.  The shoulder pad could be held in open/closed position by a push detent.
Link Posted: 7/19/2006 11:10:36 AM EDT
MisterPX,
Thanks. I think I follow what you're saying about the uppers. I believe I can work around the forward assist issue moving the rails down a little. not sure what you mean by BD's? Sorry if I'm missing the obvious..

I will start taking pics soon.
Link Posted: 7/19/2006 11:21:25 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 7/19/2006 11:41:36 AM EDT
BD = Brass Deflector....  I think.
Link Posted: 7/19/2006 11:52:10 AM EDT

BD = Brass Deflector.... I think.


Oh.....I was wondering too.

Start taking pics soon...please
Link Posted: 7/19/2006 3:46:53 PM EDT
Correct on the BD.  ALso, for the rails, are you going to use detents to hold them in the losed position?  For open pos, I can see a spring lever ( like the glock takedown lever) doing a good job at locking the stock open at various lenghts.
Link Posted: 7/22/2006 8:23:39 AM EDT

Quoted:
Pitch it to Bushmaster, that setup would be perfect for there carbon pistols.


Is there really a big market of people converting pistols to SBR?  

I wonder if Bushmaster might be worried about the potential legal hassle of selling something that would facilitate a quick and easy conversion of a pistol to an SBR.  


Link Posted: 7/22/2006 10:55:52 AM EDT
I haven't done a market analysis.
I have noticed a few folks expressing a little dissent over their desisions to try the AR-pistol. Although some owners seem as happy as can be, I have had some issues with the ergonomic handling of an AR pistol that probably had more to do with me than it did the pistol so I thought: why not build an SBR? It can be just as compact as a pistol and one can then use a VFG, etc etc etc. Plus - my way wouldn't require modifications or special tools to install.
I just decided to fix a problem my way and ask advice on my solution. I think making a few would be fun. Maybe a dozen for starters.

Now, as for the responsibility issue and all that (insert sound of knuckles cracking), as far as I'm concerned, it has little to do with me and relative, recent court rulings have demonstrated supportive positions - I'm going to drop the subject after making these comments: Bushmaster is NOT making this part. I AM. Furthermore, I AM RESPONSIBLE for the registration of MY device that the part's being used with and so would be anyone using it the way I intend it to. Are you implying that I SHOULD BE LIABLE for your indescretion if I decided to sell this part to you, or show you how to make it? How about if I was reselling a Hoover vacuum part that did the same basic thing by depicting an extended brush attachment that slips over the buffer tube and sell them in Shotgun News - would Hoover be liable? Would the ATF be able to seize assets and go bananas when they catch someone, who also happens to own an AR-15, with that Hoover part in their broom closet. Could intent be shown because there's an issue of SN on the coffee table? Should a car maker like GMC be liable when drivers modify their cars or when they get loaded and smash into pedestrians? If not, then how about the alchohol manufacturer and/or the store that sold it - anybody but/including the end user, right!? Where's the accountability? If I could get a nickel for every attorney that represented such twisted logic..or even a penny for the people that would ask them to represent their attempt to extort .. I'd use that to pay for my tax stamps. Hell, I'd set up a giant fund to help folks who can't afford their own but can demonstrate good judgement. Grr. going back to the shop and take it all out on some metal.

That said, this thread's not getting hijacked so, case closed. Now, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, the gizmo compact stock thing.. do you want one or what? Then I want to see your paperwork. Just kidding!
Link Posted: 7/22/2006 11:07:36 AM EDT
Relax.  I'm neither arguing with you, nor trying to imply anything.  


I was simply responding to Mr10anahaf's sugegstion that Bushmaster might be really interested in marketing such a device - by saying that a large manufacturer might not want to sell such a part, since so MANY people do not necessarily understand the convoluted gun laws, and do not necessarily understand that they would be committing a serious felony by putting such a device on their AR pistol.

As for what manufacturers SHOULD be liable for, I am sure that Bushmaster is very aware of the sad reality of how our fucked-up legal system works.  This, after all, is the company that was sued by victims of the Beltway snipers, simply because the lunatics used a Bushmaster rifle.  

That's why I would imagine that they (in particular) probably would not want to take any chances of being blamed for idiots that would install a stock like this on their pistol AR without first getting a Form 1 approved by the ATF.  Just a hypothetical observation, really.


I really wasn't trying to say anything about what you should or should not be doing (sorry if it came across that way).  I think it's a pretty neat and clever idea you've got there - I was merely responding to the post by the other guy.
Link Posted: 7/22/2006 11:33:12 AM EDT
I'll take the first one.  That'd be great for a 9mm SBR.
Link Posted: 7/22/2006 11:59:36 AM EDT
DK-Prof,
Now I see where you're coming from but I haven't talked to Bushmaster about this. (yet)
It just happens that their buffer tube and bolt carrier make for a pretty short operation and the rig I've laid out just slips on and tightens down.

Anyhow, with respect to my aggresive reaction, call it an attributional bias. I can appreciate the tangential relevance to the litigious aspects of conducting business in a world of opportunistic consumers who will, from time to time, abuse the legal system. It makes my blood coagulate and stop - sometimes resulting in a virtual aneurysm. Sorry it exploded on the image I had of you.

Seems your are in fact, quite reasonable (in that you too, like the part).

In my own defense I guess it's a scatalogical tendency of sorts being compelled to stir the turd.

M499,
I'm jotting that down. Not ready for any big press release I gotta test and fiddle a bit yet before I know how fast I can make one (prototype work is so SLOW)

Link Posted: 7/22/2006 12:03:39 PM EDT
Post some "work in progress" pics, please.  Do you have a working mock-up?
Link Posted: 7/22/2006 12:09:15 PM EDT
No camera. I gotta borrow one from a buddy. He's got a digital thing. I'll need a lesson on using that as I'm no photorapher. Anyhow, Yes. I have a working thingamajig with way too many holes and slots in it where I've tried this and that..looks pretty amateur but is beginning to work.
Link Posted: 7/22/2006 3:46:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2006 4:24:45 PM EDT
Looking forward to pics.
Link Posted: 8/2/2006 11:20:28 AM EDT
Sorry about the hold up everyone, duty calls and I gotta take care of my pops right now. The heat's been bringing him down and he's having problems with heart stuff and needs someone keeping an eye on him. I'll take care of you all too though.
Hope to be back on track soon. If I can grab a hold of a camera in the meantime, I'll snap some shots of the proto.
Link Posted: 8/2/2006 3:49:15 PM EDT
If you build it, I will buy one
Link Posted: 8/2/2006 4:08:20 PM EDT
Take care of your Dad first...family is more important.

We can wait........it looks like it will be a must have for me....probablt a couple.
Link Posted: 8/3/2006 3:24:13 AM EDT
I still want one....................sorry to hear about your unfortunate events.
Link Posted: 8/8/2006 8:43:55 PM EDT
The stock is nice, its just the shame its so hard to get an AR to run on those super short buffer tubes.
Link Posted: 8/14/2006 6:49:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2006 1:22:01 PM EDT
Hope your Dad is OK. We've got a lot of people in the hospital here in DFW this summer, so something is in the air.

I'm interested in one. Am holding on to the buffer tube I took off my AR pistol after I got the tax stamp, just in case this comes to fruitition.

wganz

Link Posted: 8/26/2006 1:48:16 PM EDT
Not sure what part of NM you are in but I'm happy to help out anyway I can. I think you have an incredible idea and would love to see it come to fruition.

Necessity is the mother of invention. People experimenting is where the next best thing originated from. I would advise talking to a copyright attorney and getting at least a patent.

Great job.
Link Posted: 8/30/2006 12:39:33 AM EDT
To all:
Putting things back on track. Had a hiccup in my little life.
My pops is doing better. (thanks for the setiments!) When it got hot and humid during the last part of July, his heart & thyroid started acting up. He gets really sleepless and then panic ensues. He's tougher than me but I still got his back. He's all right I've just had to shift my focus to him and stay with him for a few weeks.
I've been settling into a new place during that same time. Moved the mill so I have to tram out the head quick and pick up where I left off.

Even if I just get a few of these out there to the folks on this thread I consider it a more sucessful project than ever I imagined. If there's more to it - I'm game.

Tested:
I'm in the Albuquerque area. I wouldn't mind help with getting this basic proto is working (on other AR's besides the couple I have). I dropped the ball a few weeks ago and have some ground to cover yet on making my assembly smooth. Too many tweaks have made some problems. I'm not a seasoned machinist but proficient enough not to drill my hand and I can measure with precision. Pretty much just a guy with some tools and an eye for things that need to be fiddled with. I sent out drawings to get them notorized when I got started and all that but haven't spent big bucks with the patent process yet. Send e-mail/shoot the breeze.
Link Posted: 8/30/2006 6:50:39 AM EDT
awesome, back on track!



I was fixing to make it myself, I have it on paper but still dont know how to get the rails to stop
at the farthest pull and stay in position.



As far as the upper and buffer, I have it taken care of.
Link Posted: 9/6/2006 2:58:46 PM EDT
This would be badass for a SBR AR15! Can you still fire it with the stock closed? What material would make this out of!?
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