Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
PSA
Member Login

Posted: 3/7/2010 6:26:51 AM EDT
Looking for a trunk gun.  Need something reliable in VERY dusty conditions (like talcum powder silt).

I'll be getting 7.62x39.

I know the AK is generally considered the best choice for this kind of environment....but how does the VZ stack up?  

Whatever I get will be a folder, and the VZ will actually be cheaper since I'm okay with the factory folding stock.  I've heard issues about the factory AK side folder or under folder having wobble issues over time, so I'd be upgrading to an Ace Ltd USA  flush mount folding skeleton stock.

I looked originally at the Century Arms Int. Inc Yugo underfolder M70, but my research seems to say that the quality of CAI is hit and miss.

A friend recommended Lancaster.....which is substantially more money than CAI, but is lifetime warranty and seems to have a good rep for AKs.

I looked into Arsenal Saiga Sgl-21s, but the idiosyncrasies of the Saiga's seem to be more hassle than I want to deal with (I'd still have to add a folder and I don't care for the factory brake and want to install a slant or a PWS, neither of which are an option on the Saigas b/c of the thread pitch).  My initial attraction was the accuracy claims of the Saiga converted AKs over the standard AKs, but it's an AK....I don't know how much more accurate a Saiga would really be over a Lancaster with the chrome lined bbl anyway.

So, it seems I'll be looking at a Lancaster AK or a  D-Technik VZ.

Can anyone compare the recoil between the two rifles with a standard slant brake on the AK and the standard bbl extension (no brake) on the  VZ?

What about with a factory compensator or PWS on the AK and the Czechpoint-USA comp on the VZ?  Anyone fired both of those configurations?  If so, which had more felt recoil (IYO, I know that's somewhat subjective).

I know the VZ is a pound lighter than the AK which would make me think recoil would be worse but it's a completely different operating system so I'm unsure.  This may be critical as quick follow up shots will be whichever gun recoils less and that will weigh heavily in my decision.

Finally, accuracy between the two.....which is more accurate generally speaking?


Now, I know that depends on the rifle in question, the ammo, the shooter and what brand of AK or VZ you have (some use surplus bbls, some use new US mfg bbls, etc).....just give me your experience and what brand AK/VZ you have/had.


Thanks for your time and responses,
Sean
Link Posted: 3/7/2010 1:19:31 PM EDT
I've read somewhere that the VZ is slightly less reliable than a AK in rough conditions. My VZ is a lttle more accurate than the AKs I've fired, recoil seems about the same between the two. The VZ is smaller and lighter than a AK, it also has better ergos. If you don't like the VZ folder it can be changed out to a fixed stock with just a regular screwdriver.   Personally I like the VZ over the AK platform, that's my opinion.
Link Posted: 3/7/2010 2:00:17 PM EDT
One of these would make a great choice... The only downside IMHO is the mags and perm brake. Also not a bad idea to pick up a spare kit for parts in case you ever need them down the road. Stay away from Century monkey guns. Look for a InRange or CZ. They are light, very accurate, lock back on empty and are almost failure proof. If you don't already own a AK, I would probably go that route first because the parts and mags are more plentiful. Check out theakforum.net EE and you might find one...

Or the 107CR would be a great choice if you can find one. They are well made Bulgarian AK's...

Link Posted: 3/7/2010 2:42:47 PM EDT
I don't have a VZ58 but I have a Vepr in 223 and an Arsenal AK. I don't care for the Irons on the VZ58 or the AK's but both of my AK's have the side rail and are equipped with scopes. I have the irons as back up. If the Vz58 had this arrangement, I'd own one also.
Link Posted: 3/7/2010 3:57:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SeanK1ng:
Can anyone compare the recoil between the two rifles with a standard slant brake on the AK and the standard bbl extension (no brake) on the  VZ?

What about with a factory compensator or PWS on the AK and the Czechpoint-USA comp on the VZ?  Anyone fired both of those configurations?  If so, which had more felt recoil (IYO, I know that's somewhat subjective).


I haven't tried the Czechpoint compensator, but realistically the felt recoil is going to be very comparable between the two, depending on the exact muzzle attachment used on each rifle.  Follow-up shots are going to be a more important consideration, and again that depends on the muzzle attachment.  YMMV between rifles as well, so this really isn't a question with a straightforward answer, other than to say that it's ultimately irrelevant to your decision.


Finally, accuracy between the two.....which is more accurate generally speaking?


Now, I know that depends on the rifle in question, the ammo, the shooter and what brand of AK or VZ you have (some use surplus bbls, some use new US mfg bbls, etc).....just give me your experience and what brand AK/VZ you have/had.


Thanks for your time and responses,
Sean


My Century VZ-58 is a 4 MOA rifle, period.  Regardless of ammo, it will print a solid 4 inch group with 10 rounds at 100 yards.  Conceivably I might be able to reduce that group slightly if I had a good scope, but I'm fairly confident that it's doing what it's going to do.

Some AKs will print better, some will print worse.  Realistically, 4 MOA is all you're going to need to reach out to 200 yards and effectively hit human-sized targets.  If you want to go further than 200 yards, one might ask what your purpose really is, and why it's really necessary for a trunk gun to achieve first-round hits at 300, 400, or 500 yards.



The D-Technik rifle is good, but in my experience they're not really any "better" than the Century.  Every US-made version has various domestic components in it, that vary from source to source.  Some people strongly dislike the plastic trigger in certain VZ-58s.  Personally, I liked the Century's original front sight post / bayonet lug combination, since I wanted to be able to throw a bayonet on there for fun.  Finish quality varies, but generally the Century is crap, and the D-Technik's finish is reasonably acceptable in terms of durability.

In my opinion, the Kalashnikov doesn't really have anything in particular on the VZ-58 in terms of reliability.  I'm unsure what the extremely-long-term durability of the VZ-58's receiver might be with exceptionally high round counts, but that's not a major concern of mine - any firearm is ultimately a disposable tool on a long enough timeline.  VZ-58 magazines seem to be quite robust, far moreso than AR mags, but I'd hesitate to say that they're quite the equal in durability to the AK's.  Realistically this doesn't matter though unless you plan on living in the Australian outback without resupply for the rest of your life with only three magazines for the rifle.  And Czechpoint has spare surplus mags cheaply enough that I wouldn't hesitate to stock up on at least a dozen or two, which would probably last all but the most hardcore shooters at least a lifetime or two.
Link Posted: 3/7/2010 4:19:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
Originally Posted By SeanK1ng:
Can anyone compare the recoil between the two rifles with a standard slant brake on the AK and the standard bbl extension (no brake) on the  VZ?

What about with a factory compensator or PWS on the AK and the Czechpoint-USA comp on the VZ?  Anyone fired both of those configurations?  If so, which had more felt recoil (IYO, I know that's somewhat subjective).


I haven't tried the Czechpoint compensator, but realistically the felt recoil is going to be very comparable between the two, depending on the exact muzzle attachment used on each rifle.  Follow-up shots are going to be a more important consideration, and again that depends on the muzzle attachment.  YMMV between rifles as well, so this really isn't a question with a straightforward answer, other than to say that it's ultimately irrelevant to your decision.


Finally, accuracy between the two.....which is more accurate generally speaking?


Now, I know that depends on the rifle in question, the ammo, the shooter and what brand of AK or VZ you have (some use surplus bbls, some use new US mfg bbls, etc).....just give me your experience and what brand AK/VZ you have/had.


Thanks for your time and responses,
Sean


My Century VZ-58 is a 4 MOA rifle, period.  Regardless of ammo, it will print a solid 4 inch group with 10 rounds at 100 yards.  Conceivably I might be able to reduce that group slightly if I had a good scope, but I'm fairly confident that it's doing what it's going to do.

Some AKs will print better, some will print worse.  Realistically, 4 MOA is all you're going to need to reach out to 200 yards and effectively hit human-sized targets.  If you want to go further than 200 yards, one might ask what your purpose really is, and why it's really necessary for a trunk gun to achieve first-round hits at 300, 400, or 500 yards.



The D-Technik rifle is good, but in my experience they're not really any "better" than the Century.  Every US-made version has various domestic components in it, that vary from source to source.  Some people strongly dislike the plastic trigger in certain VZ-58s.  Personally, I liked the Century's original front sight post / bayonet lug combination, since I wanted to be able to throw a bayonet on there for fun.  Finish quality varies, but generally the Century is crap, and the D-Technik's finish is reasonably acceptable in terms of durability.

In my opinion, the Kalashnikov doesn't really have anything in particular on the VZ-58 in terms of reliability.  I'm unsure what the extremely-long-term durability of the VZ-58's receiver might be with exceptionally high round counts, but that's not a major concern of mine - any firearm is ultimately a disposable tool on a long enough timeline.  VZ-58 magazines seem to be quite robust, far moreso than AR mags, but I'd hesitate to say that they're quite the equal in durability to the AK's.  Realistically this doesn't matter though unless you plan on living in the Australian outback without resupply for the rest of your life with only three magazines for the rifle.  And Czechpoint has spare surplus mags cheaply enough that I wouldn't hesitate to stock up on at least a dozen or two, which would probably last all but the most hardcore shooters at least a lifetime or two.

I've seen both and I'm glad I bough the Czechpoint VZ 58 which was the same price as the Century one at the time.

Link Posted: 3/7/2010 5:37:26 PM EDT
Thanks for all the responses....I wasn't really expecting anything better than 3-4 MOA anyway....so that's good news regardless.  

After reading of recent problems with Lancaster....I'm pretty much nixing that idea.  I may go with an Arsenal AK instead....but it's going to be a lot more money than the VZ by the time I add the stock.   The VZ makes more sense economically vs. the AK I'd like to buy and add parts to.

I'm trying to keep whatever rifle I get fairly short (as much, admittedly, for looks as anything)....so I'd probably go with a slant brake on the AK (obviously I can't do that on the Saiga b/c of the 24x1.5 LH thread) and leave the VZ as is...unless I find a Century VZ2008 (or whatever they call it) with the threaded bbl.

Still up in the air....

Thanks again,
Sean
Link Posted: 3/7/2010 6:49:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SeanK1ng:
Thanks for all the responses....I wasn't really expecting anything better than 3-4 MOA anyway....so that's good news regardless.  

After reading of recent problems with Lancaster....I'm pretty much nixing that idea.  I may go with an Arsenal AK instead....but it's going to be a lot more money than the VZ by the time I add the stock.   The VZ makes more sense economically vs. the AK I'd like to buy and add parts to.

I'm trying to keep whatever rifle I get fairly short (as much, admittedly, for looks as anything)....so I'd probably go with a slant brake on the AK (obviously I can't do that on the Saiga b/c of the 24x1.5 LH thread) and leave the VZ as is...unless I find a Century VZ2008 (or whatever they call it) with the threaded bbl.

Still up in the air....

Thanks again,
Sean


http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/rifles/ak-47-and-rpk-rifles/p/vz2008-sporter-7-62x39-w-milled-receiver%2C-by-cai/cPath/209_214/products_id/3281

Then go buy all your spare parts and magazines from Czechpoint.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 7:07:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
Originally Posted By SeanK1ng:
Thanks for all the responses....I wasn't really expecting anything better than 3-4 MOA anyway....so that's good news regardless.  

After reading of recent problems with Lancaster....I'm pretty much nixing that idea.  I may go with an Arsenal AK instead....but it's going to be a lot more money than the VZ by the time I add the stock.   The VZ makes more sense economically vs. the AK I'd like to buy and add parts to.

I'm trying to keep whatever rifle I get fairly short (as much, admittedly, for looks as anything)....so I'd probably go with a slant brake on the AK (obviously I can't do that on the Saiga b/c of the 24x1.5 LH thread) and leave the VZ as is...unless I find a Century VZ2008 (or whatever they call it) with the threaded bbl.

Still up in the air....

Thanks again,
Sean


http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/rifles/ak-47-and-rpk-rifles/p/vz2008-sporter-7-62x39-w-milled-receiver%2C-by-cai/cPath/209_214/products_id/3281

Then go buy all your spare parts and magazines from Czechpoint.




Ya, that's exactly what I was thinking as well.  The Century seems to give you the most bang for the buck and as you said.....there's really not a big difference.   I like the fact that it already has the brake.  I'd probably swap the wood/plastic furniture for the Czechpoint synthetic. One question:  I really llike the molot grip for AKs.  Any idea if the VZ grips are similar enough to an AK that you can use the grips interchangeably?  The only other thing I'd add would possibly be the new peep sight from Czechpoint.

Thanks,
Sean
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:27:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2010 10:29:07 AM EDT by Mattl]
VZ is more accurate, within the limitations of a very limited round.  3-4 MOA should be achievable.

Recoil while nothing more than a push is more noticeable with the VZ, it is after all 2-3 lbs lighter.

The stock iron sights are far from ideal on either.  The VZ's standard folding stock will actually flex slightly under fast fire, so it is likely worth it to spend some cash on the polymer folder.

Mine is a D-technik
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 7:24:02 PM EDT
I strongly doubt that an AK grip will work on the VZ without some definite modifications.
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 2:19:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
I strongly doubt that an AK grip will work on the VZ without some definite modifications.


Ya, I doubt it too.....FAB defense in Israel makes grips for AKs and VZs and has different part numbers for each even though the outward appearance of the grips are very similar.

I might try a MDArms grip....and see if I can make it work.

By the way, primarily based on your comments, I'll be getting a Century VZ-2008.   This is just supposed to be a trunk gun so it doesn't need to be pretty or expensive.

I appreciate your and everyone else's input.  I considered an AK.....but it just got too darn complicated/expensive to get what I wanted.

Thanks again,
Sean
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 4:46:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SeanK1ng:
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
I strongly doubt that an AK grip will work on the VZ without some definite modifications.


Ya, I doubt it too.....FAB defense in Israel makes grips for AKs and VZs and has different part numbers for each even though the outward appearance of the grips are very similar.

I might try a MDArms grip....and see if I can make it work.

By the way, primarily based on your comments, I'll be getting a Century VZ-2008.   This is just supposed to be a trunk gun so it doesn't need to be pretty or expensive.

I appreciate your and everyone else's input.  I considered an AK.....but it just got too darn complicated/expensive to get what I wanted.

Thanks again,
Sean


Just remember that you're going to want to refinish it sooner or later.

And don't forget: pull trigger to disassemble, pull trigger to reassemble (Note: this works better if there aren't any rounds in the chamber).

Link Posted: 3/10/2010 5:25:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
Originally Posted By SeanK1ng:
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
I strongly doubt that an AK grip will work on the VZ without some definite modifications.


Ya, I doubt it too.....FAB defense in Israel makes grips for AKs and VZs and has different part numbers for each even though the outward appearance of the grips are very similar.

I might try a MDArms grip....and see if I can make it work.

By the way, primarily based on your comments, I'll be getting a Century VZ-2008.   This is just supposed to be a trunk gun so it doesn't need to be pretty or expensive.

I appreciate your and everyone else's input.  I considered an AK.....but it just got too darn complicated/expensive to get what I wanted.

Thanks again,
Sean


Just remember that you're going to want to refinish it sooner or later.

And don't forget: pull trigger to disassemble, pull trigger to reassemble (Note: this works better if there aren't any rounds in the chamber).



Man, from the 'striker fired' to the extractor to the pull trigger to disassemble.....sure seems a lot like a Glock.  Not necessarily a bad thing.

Thanks again,
Sean
Link Posted: 3/10/2010 11:50:20 PM EDT
i have a mak 90 and vz58 from cz usa,  though i prefer the vz58 over my chicoms.  im sitll a big fan of the chinese variants.  
doin a comparo a while back between my mak90 and vz startin at 25 yards then it rained out, and have not tried 50 yet.


last weekend took out my 84s-1 and my vz to the range for some fun at 60 yards



the muzzle brake on the vz is from czechpoint and
Top Top