Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 6/12/2017 11:51:55 PM EDT
I have been searching through the various forums on this topic and can't find a definitive answer. Maybe you fine folks can help.

I have been trying to get a 9mm 124gr RN load to reach 1200fps. Here is what I have to work with and have used a combination of 3 books, 3 magazines, and self-reported loads from the interwebs.

Test gun is a HK P30L, which has about a 4.75" barrel. I like using this gun because I've heard HK tests it at 2x max pressure specs for the 9mm. It just hit 12000 rounds, most of which has been Winchester Nato rounds, and is still going strong.

Titegroup
Power Pistol
CFE Pistol

124gn RN bullets from Berry's and XTreme

My gun can reliably cycle 1.170" OAL but I load to 1.150" as that is what the Win Nato rounds are. Because of variability in case lengths, final OAL range from 1.145" to 1.155".

Relaoding on a Dillon Square Deal B

I don't have a chronograph so been trying to get near or at max loads.

Titegroup 4.0-4.5gn.
The highest I have found is in the Hogdon Basic Reloading Manual (free thin publication at my local shop) for 4.4gn for a 125gn FMJ and puts it at 1130ish fps. Because the heavier the bullet the less powder you use, I saw 4.5gn as a safe load for 124gn.  Indeed it was snappy, but no more so than my Winchester 124gn Nato rounds. Other manuals had 4.4gn as the max for 124gn but had a much shorter OAL, like 1.05". Shot 500 rounds of 4.5gn just fine, but toned it down to 4.0gn and have loaded about 2000 of these, shooting about 500.

Power Pistol - 6.5gn. Well within parameters of all the books I have. Loud boom and heavy flash. Love it. Loaded 1000 and shot about 250 so far.

CFE - the max load seems to be 5.3gn. But Hogdon's website has 5.5gn at 1230fps out of a 4" barrel. Which is odd, since some users reported near 1150fps with just 5.0gn out of a 5" barrel. Hogdon's 2014 Annual Reloading Manual has 5.5gn at under 1150fps for the 1.150" OAL.  I've loaded 300 and will shoot them later this week.


Yes, I load 1000 at a time per load. I'm OCD enough that I buy 1000 primers, 1000 bullets, and make my powders go at least 1000 or 1250 rounds per pound to keep things "rounded".


What are the max loads and velocities you guys are getting?
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 8:11:14 AM EDT
I am loading well under your loads with the plated bullets, but I am probably not going to hit 1,200 FPS.

I am loading 4.1 gr. of TiteGroup at 1.150 with the 124 gr. Berry's or Xtreme plated, and I find that to be an awesome load.


-----
Disclaimer: As usual, I do not assume liability for this recipe, it just a snapshot of a load that I have used successfully with my gun and my loads. Anyone reading this should always work up from low to high checking for pressure signs.
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 8:41:32 AM EDT
6.5gr PP and a 124gr Gold Dot at 1.12" got me 1175 in a G19.
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 10:31:20 AM EDT
I loaded a bunch of 124gr FMJ With 4.3 Titegroup @ 1.15 COL with a very light crimp.  They scatter a bit at 7yds, not very accurate at all.  
My next go around with 124's will be with 4.-0-4.1.
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 12:04:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 1:43:08 PM EDT
I've been trying different 9mm loads basically for the fun of it and can tell you the "feel" of the load doesn't mean much.

You really need to chronograph them.

I'm shooting a light compact 9mm and was surprised by how LESS snappy a good top end load with 147gr XTPs was compared to some 100gr plated I loaded. Feel is just not accurate.

Motor
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 2:04:27 PM EDT
OP:

- sounds like you are doing your research.  Smart move.

- you are loading to 1.150" - also smart, especially as you are loading on the "warm" side / near max.  Longer - at least in the case of the HK - means better accuracy, better feeding, lower pressure and greater safety margin.

- the HK is a modern, exceptionally strong design. It can handle 1,200 fps 124 grain loads; in contrast:  antiques, weaker designs, and blow-backs can't handle hotter 9mm loads.

If you insist on continued testing, first:  BUY A CHRONOGRAPH.  Second, invest in Quickload to get at least some sort of science-based estimate about your loads.

Finally:  if you must:  read up on "9 major" or "9mm Major."  Don't load it if you don't need to.  But be aware that SOME 9mm handguns routinely digest 9mm ammo loaded to over 1330 FPS with 124s.  Again - don't do it.
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 3:10:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2017 3:12:12 PM EDT by green_bullet]
Thank you everyone. I appreciate the input. I've been meaning to get a chrony for a while but every time I see a special on bullets I jump on it as it's the most expensive component, and I'm addicted to reloading, hence the 1000 round batches. I'm itching to test my velocities though. I've set aside 50 rounds of each load to compare velocities in the P30, P30L, and the P30SK.

I did notice some bad accuracy with 4.5gn of Titegroup. 4.0gn seemed pretty good.

Originally Posted By Dominion21:

Finally:  if you must:  read up on "9 major" or "9mm Major."  Don't load it if you don't need to.  But be aware that SOME 9mm handguns routinely digest 9mm ammo loaded to over 1330 FPS with 124s.  Again - don't do it.
View Quote
I don't plan on hitting beyond 1200fps. Berry's lists 1250fps as the max velocity for their projectiles. My goal is to get something very close to Winchester's NATO rounds, which are about 1150fps.
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 3:29:15 PM EDT
buy a $100 chrony

just do it

UNIQUE and POWER PISTOL work well for good high velocity loads

.
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 4:30:32 PM EDT
I'd just look at the manuals for the top velocity powders if you aren't going to chrono it.  I load for accuracy and in 9mm with Tightgroup
I use 4.2-4.3g with 124gr jhp loaded to max length for my chamber.  My load is "snappy" and accuracy started showing up at the "snappy" point.

The same charge is accurate and soft with 115gr bullets.
Link Posted: 6/13/2017 8:19:42 PM EDT
Just 1,200 fps?  

- in that case OP, use Power Pistol and buy a cheap chronograph.  Load up to 1,200.

I have used Power Pistol to get to Major.  And your gun is a strong modern design; it will yawn at 1,200.

I am not familiar with loading CFE.  Don't use Titegroup for max velocity loads.
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 8:30:57 AM EDT
I may have a new favorite load. 5.5 grains of CFE behind the 124 grain projectile. It felt very close to Win Nato and was very accurate.

Chronograph: my indoor range has crap lighting. I can't use a cheap caldwell one. I'll have to save for a magnetic one. Some folks at the range apparently use DOPLR machines!
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 11:08:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 11:52:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By green_bullet:
I may have a new favorite load. 5.5 grains of CFE behind the 124 grain projectile. It felt very close to Win Nato and was very accurate.

Chronograph: my indoor range has crap lighting. I can't use a cheap caldwell one. I'll have to save for a magnetic one. Some folks at the range apparently use DOPLR machines!
View Quote
Cool  

I bought CFE-P when nothing else was available, was pissed about it, but ended up liking it
It's like a clean UNIQUE

Find a new range to shoot outside, and chrony.  even if you have to drive a while, shooting outside is worth it

.
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 12:43:49 PM EDT
1200 fps is HOT for a 115 grain bullet. My question would be why do you want to drive them that fast?

I always stick to velocities that reflect what I would get when buying commercial ammo.

5.0 grains of Power Pistol drives my 121 grain Hornady .356" HAP bullets @ 1065 fps. 5.2 will run them up to 1100 fps. These loads virtually duplicate the velocity range of most store bought ammo in this weight class.

I went with the 5.0 grain load because it's accurate, reliable and easier on the equipment and me.
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 12:45:28 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Barrel mounted ones can't be used on a pistol.
View Quote
The one at cabelas has a picatinny mount
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 12:49:12 PM EDT
I run 124gn ammo. My carry ammo is Federal HST and my favorite practice ammo is Winchester nato. Practice runs 1150-1180 fps and HSTs run slightly over that so I want reloads at about 1200fps

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By borderpatrol:
1200 fps is HOT for a 115 grain bullet. My question would be why do you want to drive them that fast?

I always stick to velocities that reflect what I would get when buying commercial ammo.

5.0 grains of Power Pistol drives my 121 grain Hornady .356" HAP bullets @ 1065 fps. 5.2 will run them up to 1100 fps. These loads virtually duplicate the velocity range of most store bought ammo in this weight class.

I went with the 5.0 grain load because it's accurate, reliable and easier on the equipment and me.
View Quote
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 1:04:19 PM EDT
Titegroup is for target loads only, don't push it.

6.0gr power pistol produced 1250fps with a 124gr berrys 1.150 out of my cz p09 suppressor ready.

5.1gr cfe did 1150fps.
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 1:20:38 PM EDT
So you're chasing a velocity level you'll never be able to quantify if/when you attain it? And that velocity level is your only goal?
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 1:36:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 4:00:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dano523:
make sure that your barrel is fully supporting the case, and you have increased the recoil spring tension so the pistol is not just beating it self to death with the slide still moving too far as the back of stroke.
View Quote
What does this mean? Barrel fully supporting the case?
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 4:31:01 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Motor1:
I've been trying different 9mm loads basically for the fun of it and can tell you the "feel" of the load doesn't mean much.

You really need to chronograph them.

I'm shooting a light compact 9mm and was surprised by how LESS snappy a good top end load with 147gr XTPs was compared to some 100gr plated I loaded. Feel is just not accurate.

Motor
View Quote
I agree with this man. "feel" is a bad way to judge a load. Different powders and load combinations will have a different pressure curve and I believe what one mostly "feels" is slide speed . In some cases the load might "feel" about the same or even softer than some known safe load but at some point the pressure curve spikes into a dangerous area.

Generally I am not inclined to push plated bullets towards the upper reaches of published data.

I believe that if you buy 9mm in bulk jacketed bullets are pretty close to the cost of plated
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 4:51:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2017 4:58:39 PM EDT by Dano523]
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 5:03:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 9:11:13 AM EDT
Give Hodgdon HS-6 powder a try.

With 124gr XTP, 6.4grs HS-6, and CCI 550

Small Pistol Magnum primers.

I'm getting 1200-1250 from all my 4" 9mm pistols.
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 11:08:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2017 11:16:51 PM EDT by green_bullet]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By nhsport:



I agree with this man. "feel" is a bad way to judge a load. Different powders and load combinations will have a different pressure curve and I believe what one mostly "feels" is slide speed . In some cases the load might "feel" about the same or even softer than some known safe load but at some point the pressure curve spikes into a dangerous area.

Generally I am not inclined to push plated bullets towards the upper reaches of published data.

I believe that if you buy 9mm in bulk jacketed bullets are pretty close to the cost of plated
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By nhsport:



I agree with this man. "feel" is a bad way to judge a load. Different powders and load combinations will have a different pressure curve and I believe what one mostly "feels" is slide speed . In some cases the load might "feel" about the same or even softer than some known safe load but at some point the pressure curve spikes into a dangerous area.

Generally I am not inclined to push plated bullets towards the upper reaches of published data.

I believe that if you buy 9mm in bulk jacketed bullets are pretty close to the cost of plated
What are some brands/places to get them? I've only ever seen bulk Berry's or XTreme


Originally Posted By johndm1967:
Give Hodgdon HS-6 powder a try.

With 124gr XTP, 6.4grs HS-6, and CCI 550

Small Pistol Magnum primers.

I'm getting 1200-1250 from all my 4" 9mm pistols.
Yes I loved HS-6. Metered very well and I had a good solid feel of it. Yes yes, don't base on "feel". I used 6.5 grains with standard small pistol primers. It was fairly accurate.

Here are some of the casings from my 5.5 grains of CFE Pistol. That was very accurate.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k87/PyrPatriot/IMG_4263_zps9ajvq8b9.jpg


So far none of the rounds I have loaded have had a misfeed. None of the casings look damaged. Out of 7000 casings I have reloaded since April, only one was reloaded using a damaged casing (line going down the length of the case, caught it as I was moving from bulk storage to range boxes - helps see if I missed seating any primers completely, a common occurrence on the Square Deal B).
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 11:09:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 11:21:42 PM EDT
Nvm, I see XTreme's website sells jacketed 9mm 124gn for the same price as their copper plated bullets
Link Posted: 6/21/2017 10:10:30 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dano523:


Understand that on the bottom of the case, you have solid webbing, then the cavity walls come up from there.

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu64/A-Pocat/ammo9mm/9mm-cartridge-split.jpg?1282845948

Although there needs to be a slight radius in the bottom of the barrel so the round can slip into the chamber, if you are shooting higher pressure loads, you want no part of the case wall above the web not supported (want the radus taper to stop at the web of the case, not at the upper thinner walls section instead).

http://38super.net/Extra%20Figures/Support-vs-Not.jpg
http://38super.net/Pages/supported.html

Hence standard 9mm working pressure loads, the case wall is strong enough that it not fully supported case does not cause problems (unless that brass is just old and weak), but when you start diving into +p loads, that part of the un-supported case can let loose to cause case blow out.
And just a FYI, but with 9mm Major loads, you do not reload the spent brass a second time.  It may still be fine for standard 9mm loads, but using it for another +P type load is just asking for a case failure; taking out a $3k rig on the spot when the case lets loose.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m54/nfe6848m/Gaping_hole_2.jpg

And loading for about a .003" jump, hence the second barrel in the below photo,
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/thunk20test20bbl20pic_zps307e474a.jpg

With my rounds specifically loaded for one of my rigs looking like this in the end,
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Dano523/SAM_0002_zpss8ucv5qm.jpg
View Quote
Yep. My reloads are all fully supported
Link Posted: 6/21/2017 11:04:42 PM EDT
Load data can also be found on powder manufacturers websites.
Link Posted: 6/22/2017 9:39:15 PM EDT
Power Pistol should get you there, no problem.

At the 6.5gr you're using, you're probably there already.

I use Winchester Autocomp for all my fast loads though.
Link Posted: 6/23/2017 10:56:24 AM EDT
Any medium speed burning powder with 124gr bullets will hit 1200.  When I say medium Im talking about CFE-P, HS-6, Power Pistol, etc.  

TiteGroup is not a good choice as it will get over pressure fast in 9mm when loaded hot.  

Id honestly take a look at the BE forums, and look specifically at 9mm Major loads.

Myself, I load 147s with TG for a cheater load :)
Link Posted: 6/23/2017 12:15:55 PM EDT
screenshot from a thread I posted a while back....now
in the archive

Attachment Attached File


Attachment Attached File
Top Top