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Posted: 8/4/2015 2:52:01 PM EDT
Hello everyone,

I'm looking to do a pdw/pcc to run one of my suppressors on more permanent platform.

I'm looking at doing a 93r replica or a cz scorpion.

This is mostly just a range toy.

The "93r" will be lighter and more compact.

The cz would have better stability and a longer sight radius.

Just looking for some insight.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 6:09:48 PM EDT
A 93r would honestly be kinda awesome.

No idea how you'd do one. Or the stock.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 6:22:05 PM EDT
The CZ would be easier, but I would love to see a 93r clone.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 6:23:57 PM EDT
I was not aware it was possible to make a 93R clone...

Link Posted: 8/4/2015 6:33:55 PM EDT
What's a 93r clone?
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 6:49:53 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
What's a 93r clone?
View Quote


Beretta 93R machine pistol.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 6:49:57 PM EDT
What all is gonna be involved in the 93r clone?

Are you talking about a straight up copy sans 3 round burst? With angular slide, etc?

Off the top of my head, you'd need a dummy selector switch, angular contoured slide, extended ported barrel, forward grip, stock, grips, etc.

It would be cool, but the CZ might be more economical.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 6:54:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2015 7:04:07 PM EDT by JsARCLIGHT]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GTHKTX:
What all is gonna be involved in the 93r clone?

Are you talking about a straight up copy sans 3 round burst? With angular slide, etc?

Off the top of my head, you'd need a dummy selector switch, angular contoured slide, extended ported barrel, forward grip, stock, grips, etc.

It would be cool, but the CZ might be more economical.
View Quote


93R's are very different than Beretta 92's. Their parts (if you could even find them) will not fit on a 92 without extensive modifications, including but not limited to a completely new lower grip frame.

A "proper" clone would practically be a from-the-ground-up endeavor requiring a pretty talented gunsmith.

Edit: And unless I'm remembering wrong Beretta made some factory 92 SBRs back in the late 70s that are highly sought after collector's items today. Those guns had 92 frames and slides but used modified 93 stocks. No forward grips from what I remember though, nor the extended ported barrel or other features of the 93R's... just a Beretta 92 with a similar folding stock and the extended mags.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 8:19:17 PM EDT
this is more of a poor mans modern "93r"

im not looking to please the purest, that proves to be far too costly.

im going for the look and feel of the 93r without the 15k+ entry fee

probably a m9a1 as a base, forward grip, 93r stock, metal trigger, better sights (2 dot) skeleton hammer, ported barrel , threaded barrel and a suppressor

so as you can see not totally correct.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 10:35:06 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gumby510:
this is more of a poor mans modern "93r"

im not looking to please the purest, that proves to be far too costly.

im going for the look and feel of the 93r without the 15k+ entry fee

probably a m9a1 as a base, forward grip, 93r stock, metal trigger, better sights (2 dot) skeleton hammer, ported barrel , threaded barrel and a suppressor

so as you can see not totally correct.
View Quote


Not correct, but also not possible. The 92's grip frame does not have enough meat in the bell of the grip to attach the twin pin hinge mechanism for a 93R stock, plus a 93R's grip is slightly wider than a 92's (due to the added meat) so you would have to shim the hell out of the pins... not to mention finding an actual 93R stock for sale that is not a flimsy airsoft part. The last real 93R stock I saw for sale was over $500... for just the stock... and it was missing the pins. Plus you would need the rear loop / mainspring housing (which the stock assembly also attaches to) as well as modified grip panels as the hinge juts up into the grip panel area. And 93R grip panels will not fit a 92... you could just tab cut the 92 grip panels but that would look ugly as sin IMO.

Then you have the second problem with using a 92 as a 93R host: the forward grip and the barrel. The reason the 93R's barrel is so long and top ported is to get the muzzle blast up and away from your fingers, and also to provide a little bit of "oops" room in case your grip slips off... which is another factor of the 93R, the elongated trigger guard. Which is there to thread your off hand thumb through to aid in not losing your grip on the angled foregrip. There will be no such provision with a 92, and not enough room to attach a finger stop to prevent hand overtravel unless you install one of those CAI folding grip things they made for Glock SBRs.

Which gets to the question... why not just build a Glock 17 SBR? Yes it is not as sexy as an Italian handgun but it would be infinitely cheaper, offer you far more options, keep the same general footprint as a 93R and be so much simpler to make with literally tons of prefab, snap on stocks and parts to choose from.

Not to just totally piss on your parade but I've gone down the road you are looking to go down... it is long, winding, ridiculously expensive and inevitably leads back on itself. The 93R's are unique beasts that have never had an adequate clone on the market, kind of like a Walther MPL or a Beretta M12... they are just really really REALLY difficult to clone... and the difficulty is just made twice as hard when there are cheaper, more common options on the table for that footprint of weapon. I've handled and fired a real 93R. They are clunky to shoot, about as accurate as throwing the bullets down range, the stock is uncomfortable as hell and the whole thing is better appreciated as a wall hanger or safe queen than as a legitimate small arm. I've also shot my dealer's Glock 18 with vert grip and stock and feel the same way about it. Machine pistols went the way of the dodo for good reason and they really only exist as novelties now. Sure, everyone wants a novelty every now and then and lord knows half or more of my own personal gun collection are novelties (I can feel my PS90 SBR in my safe sighing as I type this). Just know that you are walking down a very long road chasing a 93R clone unless you have mad gunsmithing skills and access to a hidden 93R parts cache no one has found yet.

On the flip side of your coin a CZ Scorpion SBR can be had for like $1200 with stamp right now ($800 gun, $200 stock kit and $200 stamp), all of it plug and play and most likely in high numbers when the parts start shipping. I own a Scorpion and have my form 1 back on it. It is a nice gun... a little plasticky for my tastes (I still prefer my HK K guns to it) but a solid shooter.

In the end it is all up to you, I'm not being a dick I just want you to know what you are potentially getting yourself into.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 10:58:16 PM EDT
I might offer a suggestion of getting a railed model of the 92 to use a pic rail folding grip. Then form an adapter to fit under the grips to allow you to attach a stock. Just my ¢.02.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 11:45:59 PM EDT


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:
93R's are very different than Beretta 92's. Their parts (if you could even find them) will not fit on a 92 without extensive modifications, including but not limited to a completely new lower grip frame.





A "proper" clone would practically be a from-the-ground-up endeavor requiring a pretty talented gunsmith.





Edit: And unless I'm remembering wrong Beretta made some factory 92 SBRs back in the late 70s that are highly sought after collector's items today. Those guns had 92 frames and slides but used modified 93 stocks. No forward grips from what I remember though, nor the extended ported barrel or other features of the 93R's... just a Beretta 92 with a similar folding stock and the extended mags.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:





Originally Posted By GTHKTX:


What all is gonna be involved in the 93r clone?





Are you talking about a straight up copy sans 3 round burst? With angular slide, etc?





Off the top of my head, you'd need a dummy selector switch, angular contoured slide, extended ported barrel, forward grip, stock, grips, etc.





It would be cool, but the CZ might be more economical.






93R's are very different than Beretta 92's. Their parts (if you could even find them) will not fit on a 92 without extensive modifications, including but not limited to a completely new lower grip frame.





A "proper" clone would practically be a from-the-ground-up endeavor requiring a pretty talented gunsmith.





Edit: And unless I'm remembering wrong Beretta made some factory 92 SBRs back in the late 70s that are highly sought after collector's items today. Those guns had 92 frames and slides but used modified 93 stocks. No forward grips from what I remember though, nor the extended ported barrel or other features of the 93R's... just a Beretta 92 with a similar folding stock and the extended mags.
92SB


http://www.berettacollection.com/9mm/9mm_org.htm#92
 
 
Link Posted: 8/5/2015 2:23:51 AM EDT
Instead of a 93r clone, why not get an original Inglis Hi Power with the shoulder stock?
They're curio & relics, so you don't even need to register them as SBRs.
Just be careful the stocks are original and not Chinese knock offs.

Here's one on GB. There's several more for sale.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=498531573
Link Posted: 8/5/2015 9:44:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2015 4:11:48 PM EDT by gumby510]

No worries I don't see this as you being a dick or pissing on my parade. I asked for input and your doing  exactly what I asked for. So thank you for your input I do truly appreciate it.

Your right about the glock, I don't want to do one of them. No sex appeal, plus they don't fit my hand.

I'd run a suppressor to get the added length on the barrel to keep my hands safe.

Plus I don't see it being too difficult to do, that is if your ignoring/ok with the slide not being right.

I happen to have a full machine shop at my disposal.

This is the ruff idea. Start with the airsoft version so I have ruff templates to start with and start milling the parts out of the proper grade steels or other metals.

For the trigger guard area I was thinking of milling a piece of steel to give the proper mounting for the hand grip and the extra area for the thumb hole. Cutting part of the existing trigger guard out and welding in the milled piece.

For the stock I'd probably just be able to reverse engineer it and milling it out of steel or aluminum and milling the grip and frame to look proper for the stock attachment.

This is all just a idea at this time, I'll start with buying the airsoft parts and truly get a good idea of what I'm in for.
Link Posted: 8/5/2015 10:08:27 AM EDT
If you have the equipment and the fabricating skills to undertake the project then that will reduce your costs to materials and time, which is something a lot of us don't have the luxury of.

Also something to be aware of some of the airsoft 93R's are not dimensionally accurate (like a lot of airsoft stuff). I bought a few of them a long time ago when I was trying to cobble together my own clone and the two that I had, I forget who made them but one was plastic and the other was mostly metal, were different from each other and could not take each other's parts. Only one of them had the stock and the stock it had was flimsy. Then again the real 93R stock I handled in person was not that much sturdier... their design is very clunky and chincy like those plastic FAB Glock stocks. There is a lot of flex and give in them that is exacerbated by their sliding / folding design.

I wish you luck if you chase the raffica dragon. Post pics if you take the plunge.
Link Posted: 8/5/2015 9:12:21 PM EDT
The question is basically "cz skorpion or phantom ghost vapor gun."  Not a terribly hard choice.
Link Posted: 8/22/2015 12:41:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2015 12:42:46 PM EDT by gumby510]
After toying around with an airsoft version and comparing it to a 92fs I've decided to go with the 93R "clone" this process will hopefully take me under 6 months. I'll take pictures along the way and keep you guys updated. I have a game plan and a proper mockup, looks like total length with suppressor will be 26.5in without being 19.5in.

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/22/2015 1:25:45 PM EDT

  Good luck and if you ever think you have posted enough photos post  a few more just to be safe.
Link Posted: 8/24/2015 6:04:36 PM EDT
93R parts kit right here! you're welcome ;)

http://www.firearms4less.com/beretta93r/
Link Posted: 8/24/2015 10:12:52 PM EDT
So, what is the first step to building a 93r clone?
Link Posted: 8/25/2015 9:43:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2015 10:05:52 AM EDT by gumby510]
Well for me it was buying a all metal airsoft version with the correct stock to decide if it's worth taking on and having the parts needed to make templates off of. Tracing the trigger guard area to the end of the underside of the frame. Make a wood template or cast it in epoxy to match and adjust as needed to match the real 92 frame. Once everything is correct mill the template out of the proper grade and heat treated aluminum and then bond and weld to the frame.

Stock wise I've already modified the airsoft steel and aluminum version to the lop I want, and replaced the hardware with stainless and the proper grade hardware. I'm adjusting the buttplate (making it taller and wider for better ergos)

I'll be using a 92d once I find a good price on one. With a 92/96d the slide will look more correct.
Link Posted: 8/25/2015 4:26:03 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MAngel_M4:
93R parts kit right here! you're welcome ;)

http://www.firearms4less.com/beretta93r/
View Quote


Holy hell that's expensive!!!  I thought that guy hawking the $4000 (incomplete) Steyr TMP parts kit was pricey.  

But, where else are you going to find a kit? I doubt an SOT is going to torch one these days!
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 9:05:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 9:08:22 AM EDT by cherenkov]
I too would love to see a Replica 93R or close representation.

There was a very few imported factory 92S pistols with factory mounted folding stocks evaluated by some police agencies in the late 70s early 80s.  I have seen one in the flesh with factory letter about 20 years ago.  

The stock appeared to be a direct copy of the 93R or very similar mechanism.  The pistol had a mounting hole in the front of the frame for part of the stock locking and a modified mainspring screw that had an attachment point for the stock as well.

It did not have the folding fwd grip or elongated trigger guard.

the 93R is very cool, and very refined looking.  almost artistic (in my opinion).

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