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Posted: 8/1/2002 11:25:00 AM EDT
I was thinking of grabbing a sks and a case of wolf ammo for a good shtf weapon, super reliable and simple but from what I have heard the 7.62 fmj isn't that great of a stopper it just tends to penetrate thru the target so I was wondering if the wolf hollow points do much more damage in 7.62? i want a effective stopper but don't want to buy top of the line ammo which would kill the point of the cheap gun and cheap ammo that I am going after. any thoughts?
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 1:22:10 PM EDT
The hollow points out of an SKS have failed my hunting buddy twice now. He got both deer but not before he poked 'em full of holes. Maybe the softpoints are better?
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 2:22:11 PM EDT
1911 Greg- If you're talking about a hunting cartridge, I'm sure there's better out there, but if you're a tinfoil hat, end of the world kind of guy, one interesting tidbit to bear in mind- I read recently that some Russian Special Forces are reverting to 7.62x39 as the newer 5.45 cartridges don't have any vehicle/obstacle penetration properties that the old 7.62x39 cartridge had.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:53:47 PM EDT
The 7.62x39mm is awesome on humans under 200 yards.

Saying a 7.62x39 isn't any good????? Ask that to a vietnam vet who has been hit buy that bullet....or one of the Navy SeALs that were pinned down on the tarmack at Panama.....You can't ask the rest of the U.S. serive men who were hit by that round, because they are dead!!!

As far as deer go,,,I've taken half dozen CA and Idaho Mule deer with it under 125 yards. It' works awesome. Of course I used a soft point bullet, not a hollow point.

The hollowpoints used in Chinese or Russian ammo is not designed like a true "hollow point" bullet. The little hole in those bullets is used for the manufacturing process in encasing a steel core surrounded by lead and finally the copper jacket. That particular bullet is not designed to perform like a traditional "hollow point" bullet.

On a side not, I've used my little 10 round SKS on wild boar, ferral pig, tons of coyotes, and last but not least....a CA black bear. One shot, one kill under 60 yards. The bear was only about 150 lbs, but it's still a tougher animal than a big assed human intent on killing you.

To answer your question, I'd say the SKS with Wolf ammo is a great emergent urban combat weapon at close ranges (under 150 yards). You can't beat it for the money you'll spend on the gun and ammo. Of course the gun/ammo combo is no "tack driver", it will consistenly kill a human if hit in the torso area. If it doesn't kill him outright, it will at least take him out of the fight with a torso shot.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 5:13:23 PM EDT
I think you could do worse than the 7.62x39 for defensive purposes. I don't have any first hand knowledge of Wolf in 7.62, but I shoot a lot of it in .223- stuff works for me. I have taken two deer with my SKS using Chinese steel core ammo many years back. This wasn't by choice, as I had inadvertently mixed in the Chinese stuff with my soft points. The point is, both deer never new the difference. Both dropped on the spot, roughly 75yds away. I've heard good things about the surplus 7.62X39 Yugoslavian ammo. Maybe something to consider.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 6:37:21 PM EDT
Kind of morbid, but in 1989 when Patrick Purdy shot 35 kids in a schoolyard, only 5 recieved fatal wounds. That's not too good of an average
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:24:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By guardian855:
Kind of morbid, but in 1989 when Patrick Purdy shot 35 kids in a schoolyard, only 5 recieved fatal wounds. That's not too good of an average



Not a flame, but I always look at this example as being suspect. Where were these poor kids hit- Arms? Legs? Other non-vital areas? I would question that idiots shooting rather than the caliber itself. If you catch a 7.62 round in the center mass, it would be highly unlikely you would survive. That would hold true for almost any centerfire rifle cartridge. To believe otherwise would be plain foolish.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:27:21 PM EDT
SHOT PLACEMENT. The 7.62X39 will be fine.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 8:55:12 PM EDT
I'm just guessing, but if you're hit in the head by a 7.62x39mm, you'll probably die.

USPC40



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Link Posted: 8/1/2002 9:06:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I was thinking of grabbing a sks and a case of wolf ammo for a good shtf weapon, super reliable and simple but from what I have heard the 7.62 fmj isn't that great of a stopper it just tends to penetrate thru the target so I was wondering if the wolf hollow points do much more damage in 7.62? i want a effective stopper but don't want to buy top of the line ammo which would kill the point of the cheap gun and cheap ammo that I am going after. any thoughts?



From the ammo faq:


Fact: Data on hundreds of shootings collected by the Army Wound Data and Munitions Effectiveness Team and data from civilian shootings with 7.62×39mm ammunition, like from the AK-47, bear out the less than stellar lethality of the round.


See: Q. Isn't 7.62 NATO much better for long range penetration than 5.56 anyhow? Why would I want to use 5.56 when I could send 7.62 downrange instead?

7.62x39, particularly the steel core stuff, doesn't do much damage really.

Of course, HP/open tip might be different. I haven't played much with anything but FMJ in 7.62x39.

The real advantage of some of the weapons chambered for 7.62x39 is that they can be had for pretty cheap and they are mechanically very simple.

"Big tech" if you will.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 11:26:27 PM EDT
The SKS is a fine little rifle. I have seen tons of these rifles in use (most probably haven't been cleaned since being imported) and I have never seen one of them yet that malfunctioned. They hold 10 rounds and can be reloaded in a speedy fashion using cheap, readily available stripper clips. There is also a ton of accessories on the market for them. Just slap yourself a synthetic stock on one, put a sling on if it doesn't have one, then buy some strippers and Wolf and you are ready to go. The original stocks tend to be a little short for me and the aftermarket ones make them much more comfortable.

In regards to the 7.62x39mm round, I would venture to say that those who call it "puny" or "not a very good stopper" have never been shot by it. This round probably has less effect than a .308 or 30-06, but it wouldn't surprise me if it outperformed some of the smaller caliber cartridges. I would rather have it than a .223/5.56 in cases where the .223 doesn't fragment. Even with FMJ, if the bullet hits a vital area, it will have affect. Add in SP's and it should be very effective. I once had a friend who shot a rather large bodied 8 point whitetail with a Mini-30 and cheap 7.62x39 Russian SP's. The meat processors who packed his deer (they have dealt with thousands) asked what caliber he shot it with because they said the wound was one of the wildest they ever saw. They had thought he used some sort of very powerful .300 caliber range magnum because it had been so severe. That leads me to believe this round has very good potential with SP's. And the SKS's I have seen will function fine with these SP rounds. And they are very cheap.

This gun should make a good deer getter for you, as well as plinker or even self defense gun if needed. I'm not sure what your definition of SHTF is, but if it's home defense, I would rather have a good 12 gauge. I tend not to plan for many of these wild SHTF scenarios that you hear all the time, because I just don't see them happening. But I guess the SKS would be a good choice too for preparing for the unknown. But just don't spend too much money because of this....A SHTF scenario such as invasion by foreign army or mass chaos nationwide is highly unlikely. But do keep a disaster supplies kit with emergency items for stuff such as floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes and Winter storms, depending on where you live, as these events are much more likely to happen.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 4:16:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By USPC40:
I'm just guessing, but if you're hit in the head by a 7.62x39mm, you'll probably die.

USPC40


Interestingly enough, in the course of my job a couple of years ago, I spoke with a VA employee who works in the Blind Rehab area. He is blind as a result of getting shot in the head with an AK or SKS in a short-range firefight in VN. The bullet severed the optic nerve but otherwise he's in good shape. He found out I wrote a book on AR's and we got to talking about the M16. He really liked the 16's in VN -- although not a shooter by inclination, he said in his experience they were reliable, light and very effective. (Sorry, I can't remember the year he was over there.) He asked a bit about the ballistics of the AK/7.62X39 vs the M16/5.56mm, and I noted that if he had been hit with an M16 in the same place as he was with the 7.62x39 FMJ he might not be around to tell about it, or might have had much more severe damage due to bullet fragmentation and secondary missiles (pieces of skull blown through the brain like shrapnel.

Normally I don't ever ask combat vets anything about their experiences unless I have to as part of the job, or unless I know them very well and know they don't mind talking about it, but he brought it up. He was very calm about the whole thing (he has had 30 years to get used to it....) And while there are lots of posers out there, he is not a wannabee or fake vet -- his documentation on his wound, etc. is flawless. He is a very nice guy who has accomplished a great deal in his post-war career and helps lots of veterans.
John
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 5:10:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mach1:

Originally Posted By guardian855:
Kind of morbid, but in 1989 when Patrick Purdy shot 35 kids in a schoolyard, only 5 recieved fatal wounds. That's not too good of an average



Not a flame, but I always look at this example as being suspect. Where were these poor kids hit- Arms? Legs? Other non-vital areas? I would question that idiots shooting rather than the caliber itself. If you catch a 7.62 round in the center mass, it would be highly unlikely you would survive. That would hold true for almost any centerfire rifle cartridge. To believe otherwise would be plain foolish.



So when the SHTF the bad guys are going to stand still at known distances while you shoot at them from a bench rest?
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 5:31:22 PM EDT
Come again?
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 6:06:14 PM EDT
A couple of links as to how accurate the 7.62x39 can be. Out of an AK anyway.

assaultweb.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/004330.html

assaultweb.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/004312.html

A link on 7.62x39 damage.
assaultweb.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/004175.html
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 6:56:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2002 7:01:18 PM EDT by tatjana]
Fackler on the 7.62x39 round:


Madman shoots 35 in Stockton schoolyard; 30 of those hit survive. That would have been the appropriate headline. Why did the media dwell almost exclusively on the five that did not survive?

A military type AK-47 rifle was used. Full-metal-jacketed military type bullets were used. That 86% of those children recovered from their wounds comes as no surprise to those who understand this particular bullet's wounding
potential.

Most full-metal-jacketed AK-47 bullets do not deform significantly on striking the body, unless they strike bone. They characteristically travel point-forward until they penetrate 9 to 10 inches of tissue (if a bullet yaws, turning sideways during its tissue path, it causes increased disruption). This means that most AK-47 shots will pass through the body causing no greater damage that produced by handgun bullets. The limited tissue disruption produced by this weapon in the Stockton schoolyard is consistent with well documented data from Vietnam (the Wound Data and Munitions Effectiveness Team collected approximately 700 cases of AK-47 hits), as well as with controlled research studies from various wound ballistics laboratories.



Of the fatalities in this shooting the victims were struck in the:

1 Head
1 Liver
1 Both lungs
1 Heart
1 Aorta and Spinal Cord

There was no damage to any organ not hit directly by a bullet.

Better concentrate on shot placement if your going to be using 7.62x39 FMJ.

Obviously, open tip/hollow points might be more effective.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 9:50:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2002 9:54:25 PM EDT by Belloc]

Originally Posted By tatjana:
Of the fatalities in this shooting the victims were struck in the:

1 Head
1 Liver
1 Both lungs
1 Heart
1 Aorta and Spinal Cord

There was no damage to any organ not hit directly by a bullet.

Better concentrate on shot placement if your going to be using 7.62x39 FMJ.

Obviously, open tip/hollow points might be more effective.



Indeed. I would love to see some of this in your ammo testing.
www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfrproductsheet.eye?symbol=X76239&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3Q9Tnk0Mk1uZ3pPVzF0SUZKMWMzTnBZVzQlM­0QmdXNlbGlzdD1ub25lJmJyYW5kbGlzdD1ub25lJmltYW­dlPW9u



Winchester 123 gr JSP (X76239): penetraion=15”, Recoverd Diameter = 0.56”.
...As long as the bullets yaw, fragment, or deform, the better 5.56 x 45 mm loads generally offer superior terminal performance compared to most 7.62 x 39 mm loads, except the Winchester 123 gr JSP, which offers roughly equivalent terminal performance."


But if you going to stick with surplus here is a link with more info:

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000369.html

The shooter in Cali was probably using steel core which tends to travel a good long way (10-12 inches) before beginning to tumble. Some of the lead core surplus will yaw after as little as TWO inches. Big difference.

Link Posted: 8/3/2002 12:30:42 AM EDT
What we really need is a 123gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. They expand very quickly in soft tissue. I handload 120gr Ballistic Tips in 6.5x55 Swede- absolutely devastating on deer sized game.
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