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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/7/2005 5:32:48 PM EDT
I have enough common sense to know it is a roughly .308 projectile like the 7.62X39, .308 win, and .308 nato.

Is 7.62X54 the same as .308 nato? Is the casing the same? I know the .308 win is slightly different from the .308 nato as far as .308 win is considered hotter.

I have never owned a 7.62X54 and just wanted to ask. I thought about getting a m44 for a novelty and just wanted to know what I was getting into.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:27:15 PM EDT
The Europeans measure their calibers with projectile dia and case length. So with 7.62x39 you have a 7.62mm dia projectile and a case lenght of 39mm. To complicate matters the Russians measure the dia differently which resaults in a slightly wider bullet (.311 in. vs .308 in.) although many reload for the 7.62x54R with .308 projectiles.

With regard to case length, the Eropean description of .308win is 7.62x51 so you can immediatly see that 7.62x54R is 3mm longer than .308win. Also the R at the end signifies that it is a "rimmed" round as opposed to the "rimless" .308win

Because of the slightly larger case capacity the 7.62x54R can be loaded hotter than .308win, but the difference is not really worth shouting about.

As for the difference between .308nato and .308win one is a military load made to specifications that allow it to be fired in a range of different weapons of various countries and still deliver similar performance regardless who made the ammo. .308win is a commercial round made for the civilian market and is manufactured to many different specifications from cheap plinking ammo to precision target ammo.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:35:05 PM EDT
That's what I wanted to know. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:46:41 PM EDT
The 54R goes back to at least 1891 hence the 91/30 refurbished russian rifles form Mosin Nagant that many of us own. It predates 7.62x51/.308 by 50+ years. It after all that time is still inservice today. Nato round is a little more predictable in performance largely due to manufacturing standards. 54R is at the end of its rang at 600-800 meters whereas the 51Nato can score consistently at 800.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:32:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 9:41:15 PM EDT by SmegHead]
I've heard the R is for Russian. Just to add to the confusion. 7.62 Russian, 7.62 Soviet(M1943), 7.62 NATO.
Confused yet???
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:05:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SmegHead:
I've heard the R is for Russian. Just to add to the confusion. 7.62 Russian, 7.62 Soviet, 7.62 NATO.
Confused yet???



If a cartridge has a R like 7.62x54R it means it's rimmed. Some cartridges are listed like 6.5x55 SR(Japanese), that means the cartridge is Semi-Rimmed. Most modern ammo is rimless, belted or rebated (case head is smaller than rear of case).

7.62 Russian (7.62x54R) dates back to the time of the Czar's, and 7.62 Soviet (7.62x39) was developed under Soviet rule.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:54:47 AM EDT
Yeah like .22LR... Long rimmed... LOL!!! I'm just being a goof, don't mind me...
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:03:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Nato round is a little more predictable in performance largely due to manufacturing standards. 54R is at the end of its rang at 600-800 meters whereas the 51Nato can score consistently at 800.



To say that it is at the end of its range at 600-800m is misleading. Certainly I would not be expecting tight groups at 800m from surplus 7.62x54R, however when fired from a machinegun the round remains effective out to 2000m and the same is true for 7.62 Nato.

Purpose loaded sniper ammo in 7.62x54R is accurate enough to hit a man sized target at 800m this is what it is designed to do. Handloaded 7.62x54R should deliver similar accuracy to handloaded .308win with a slight advantage to the .308win since I believe the design of the cartridge is inherently more accurate than the older 7.62x54R.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:25:27 AM EDT
For an explanation of the various different types of cartridge designations, see THIS

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:37:41 AM EDT
If any of you guys are looking for pretty good factory loads, Winchester produces it and it is pretty damn accurate. Plus it's not corrosive like all of the ComBloc surplus running around.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:19:34 PM EDT
it's amazing it's still being used in the world today, over 100 year old caliber!

I also, can't see a special handload .308 outperforming the same special handload for the 7.62x54R.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:12:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 7:12:46 PM EDT by Darkest2000]

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
it's amazing it's still being used in the world today, over 100 year old caliber!



Same with .45ACP and 9mm Luger...all close to 100 years old.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:55:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
it's amazing it's still being used in the world today, over 100 year old caliber!



Same with .45ACP and 9mm Luger...all close to 100 years old.



They all work, and they work well, so no reason for them not to be around is my opinion.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 7:54:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 7:56:22 AM EDT by MauserMark]

Originally Posted By ManiacRat461:

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
it's amazing it's still being used in the world today, over 100 year old caliber!



Same with .45ACP and 9mm Luger...all close to 100 years old.



They all work, and they work well, so no reason for them not to be around is my opinion.



yeah I guess your right.

Was thinking it was the oldest rifle cartridge still around, forgot about pistol calibers.

but we all know the modern Russian SVD's can outperform the PSG1...........

-mark
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 8:21:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By ManiacRat461:

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
it's amazing it's still being used in the world today, over 100 year old caliber!



Same with .45ACP and 9mm Luger...all close to 100 years old.



They all work, and they work well, so no reason for them not to be around is my opinion.



yeah I guess your right.

Was thinking it was the oldest rifle cartridge still around, forgot about pistol calibers.

but we all know the modern Russian SVD's can outperform the PSG1...........

-mark




In civilian calibers 44-40 is still around and it was originally chambered in the 1866 winchester rifle...

.22SR is still around and it was chahmbered in the 1873 Winchester rifle....

the old 45/70 Military cartridge is still popular today for hunters and target shooters (in the meets where such a weapon is preferred)


There are many man old cartridges that are well over 100 years old (don't forget 30-30, .303 etc, and htat is just rifle calibers)
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 4:31:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By ManiacRat461:

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
it's amazing it's still being used in the world today, over 100 year old caliber!



Same with .45ACP and 9mm Luger...all close to 100 years old.



They all work, and they work well, so no reason for them not to be around is my opinion.



yeah I guess your right.

Was thinking it was the oldest rifle cartridge still around, forgot about pistol calibers.

but we all know the modern Russian SVD's can outperform the PSG1...........

-mark



The .22 LR is the oldest cartirdge still in production.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:43:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 7:24:08 PM EDT by sharky30]
7.62x54R


7.62x51 aka .308

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 6:42:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sharky30:
7.62x54R
www.ammoman.com/images/76254r-180.jpg

7.62x51 aka .308
www.courter.org/guns/ammo/762x51.jpg



Is that where you put them?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 7:22:17 PM EDT
oh crap. they must not like hotlinking
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:01:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By ManiacRat461:

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
it's amazing it's still being used in the world today, over 100 year old caliber!



Same with .45ACP and 9mm Luger...all close to 100 years old.



They all work, and they work well, so no reason for them not to be around is my opinion.



yeah I guess your right.

Was thinking it was the oldest rifle cartridge still around, forgot about pistol calibers.

but we all know the modern Russian SVD's can outperform the PSG1...........

-mark



The .22 LR is the oldest cartirdge still in production.



There was a .22 short,and .22 long before the .22LRF!! And the king daddy of them all in 1890 the WRF!!! The WRF was the .22 mag for about 75 years!!!


Bob
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:13:51 PM EDT
Back during the turn of the century, weren't they still using blackpowder? Wouldn't the 7.62x54R be an orignally blackpowder round used as a smokeless powder round when the ruskies switched over? Or was it one of the earliest smokeless powder cartridges? Which doesn't make much sense to me because during the time the czar ruled supreme, the ruskies were usually lagging in technology.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:22:54 PM EDT
The Mosin was one of the early smokeless powder weapons. Interestingly, many or most of them were made under contract in the US.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:27:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The Mosin was one of the early smokeless powder weapons. Interestingly, many or most of them were made under contract in the US.


Ah I see. The Johnson rifle of the US took 'till serial # 800,000 to convert to smokeless(all the other rifles before that would blow up in your face with smokeless). Smokeless powder was one hell of a revolution that most modern shooters take for granted.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:47:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The Mosin was one of the early smokeless powder weapons. Interestingly, many or most of them were made under contract in the US.


Ah I see. The Johnson rifle of the US took 'till serial # 800,000 to convert to smokeless(all the other rifles before that would blow up in your face with smokeless). Smokeless powder was one hell of a revolution that most modern shooters take for granted.



Yes thats another thing you can blame the French for!!!!


Bob
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:15:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The Mosin was one of the early smokeless powder weapons. Interestingly, many or most of them were made under contract in the US.


Ah I see. The Johnson rifle of the US took 'till serial # 800,000 to convert to smokeless(all the other rifles before that would blow up in your face with smokeless). Smokeless powder was one hell of a revolution that most modern shooters take for granted.



Yes thats another thing you can blame the French for!!!!


Bob


Well the French don't take drop dutrability for granted. That's for sure.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:19:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 10:27:31 PM EDT by Andreuha]

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Purpose loaded sniper ammo in 7.62x54R is accurate enough to hit a man sized target at 800m this is what it is designed to do. Handloaded 7.62x54R should deliver similar accuracy to handloaded .308win with a slight advantage to the .308win since I believe the design of the cartridge is inherently more accurate than the older 7.62x54R.


(not picking on you in particular Mattl, just that general opinion)

When people compare the two calibers, they're comparing their tricked out rem 700 or savage 500 that's fed a steady diet of matchkings to used and abused soviet surplus that's fed corrosive machinegun grade ammo.
Accuracy when comparing .308 to 7.62x54R has NOTHING to do with 'inherent accuracy' of the cartridges design. Theoretical accuracy is identical between the two rounds, if not better in 7.62x54R [.311 bullet is slightly larger, x54R case is bigger]. What realized accuracy does have to do with is the simple fact that nobody commercially loads 7.62x54R to match spec, and nobody makes a modern percision rifle in 7.62x54R -- I return to the beginning of my post.

Besides, the only people who give a shit about soviet surplus 'x54R rifles are A: history buffs, and B: folks who can't afford 'x51-chamber rifles. I belong to the former, and don't plan to own more than a handfull as items of interest - possibly more kept in a crate as potential SHTF handouts, but that remains to be seen.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:49:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The Mosin was one of the early smokeless powder weapons. Interestingly, many or most of them were made under contract in the US.


Ah I see. The Johnson rifle of the US took 'till serial # 800,000 to convert to smokeless(all the other rifles before that would blow up in your face with smokeless). Smokeless powder was one hell of a revolution that most modern shooters take for granted.



Yes thats another thing you can blame the French for!!!!


Bob


Well the French don't take drop dutrability for granted. That's for sure.



No kidding and they wanted smokeless gunpowder so as not to give away thier position,so they could sneek away!!

They invented Para-cutes because they wanted to sneek out of planes!

And Ice-cream just for the hell of it!!!!!


Bob
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