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Posted: 11/20/2001 9:15:45 PM EDT
Some people think the little 5.56 round is an ineffective round for defensive purposes. The Military M193 and M855 FMJ rounds are more effective (effective being defined as the size of the permanent wound cavity) than ANY 12 gauge load, any pistol round, and the US military .308 or .30-06 FMJ rounds (or their hollowpoint or softpoint variants) at typical combat distances (100 meters or less).

quote,
"http://communities.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/whyanar15.msnw"

So go kick ass!

Link Posted: 11/21/2001 5:15:16 AM EDT
I really doubt a .223 can drop a deer like a 30-06 can... for home defense I'll take a 12G over a .223 anyday.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 5:20:00 AM EDT
???????????????????????????????????
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 5:22:39 AM EDT
As Jander notes, it's all about wounding.

5.56mm military ball excels at wounding if there's enough tissue depth (4") and the velocity of the bullet remains above 2700fps. This bullet creates a larger wound than any .30 caliber.

Shotgun is a second choice.

Pistols and pistol caliber subguns or carbines a third choice.

Yeah, and I've got real combat experience. Much more than a weekend or two .

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 5:23:30 AM EDT
IMO it really doesnt matter much what caliber you shoot if you cant or dont hit what you are aiming at. whatever you choose "practice"..where you live also matters...in an apartment complex?...next to propane tanks?..next to an orphanage?...or on a 1000 acre farm butted up against a national forest?...It may also matter who is going to use the rifle/pistol/shotgun for self defense...a smaller stature person or one who is recoil shy might benefit from a lesser recoiling lesser blast noise type fiream..Reliabilty is another factor to consider...as well as ease of operation..simple is better but semi auto against multiple targets may be a worthwhile consideration..If one can afford it a battery of rifles pistols shotguns is a good idea..right tool for the right job..different family members having different favorites
If I could only choose one weapon and I lived in the city..the 12 gauge shotgun would be my choice in the country my short barreled bolt action 308..but if my wife or daughters were to need the weapon as well I would probably drop down to a 20g or a 9mm handgun ..living in the country as I do ..I tend towards the AR15 and the shotgun as well as the 22 ..for varmints as well as intruders..To me an AR-15 a 45 ACP auto a short barreled 308 a 12g pump shotgun and a 22 rimfire all with appropriate optics and back up sights is good insurance from all types of predators
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 5:25:08 AM EDT
This sounds a lot like:

So, which round would you rather me shoot you with?
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 5:40:53 AM EDT
found this quote about the "less than effective"-ness of the .223, most of the stuff on this guys site doesn't sound like bs and he has a lot of good info on military rifles and handguns all the way back to ww1 if you can manage to wade through all his dumbass java crap and star-trek stuff.


On 16 June 1962, one platoon from the 340 Ranger Company was on an operation...and contacted three armed Viet Cong in heavily forested jungle. Two VC had carbines, grenades, mines and one had a sub-machinegun. At a distance of approximately 15 meters, one Ranger fired an AR-15 full automatic hitting one Viet Cong with three rounds in the first burst. One round in the head took it completely off. Another in the right arm, took it completely off too. One round hit him in the right side, causing a hole about five inches in diameter...it can be assumed that any one of the three wounds would have caused death.


shoga.wwa.com/~dvelleux/m16rifle.html

shoga.wwa.com/~dvelleux/


Link Posted: 11/21/2001 5:51:30 AM EDT
Why is everyone so concerned with military ball ammo? Has anyone ever heard of "expanding" ammo? You know SP's, BT's, and HP's? Is it just because it's cheap and plentiful? I'll take a nice SP over ball anyday.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 5:57:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2001 5:52:46 AM EDT by PbRx]
Let's see, if I am being attacked by:

a deer with murderous intent: My pick-up truck.

a woodchuck bent on raising hell: a .22 lr (so the neighbors won't call the cops)

a Taliban/Al-Queda: a bat (why waste ammo?)

all human attackers: anything that make a really loud noise, preferrably in rapid succession. I would prefer not to wound or to kill - too messy to clean up, physically and legally, even if you are 100% justified.

Link Posted: 11/21/2001 6:05:32 AM EDT
In the real world all you have to do is point a firearm at most crimnals and the fight is over, but If you have to shoot, just make sure you hit your target and chances are you win.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 9:17:15 AM EDT
You can't fix a truck with just a hammer. Weapons/ammo are tools, each has there own place and time.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 10:17:23 AM EDT
Well at least CHUCK seem's to know what he is talking about.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 10:35:11 AM EDT
Army medical research in 1988, confirmed by later ballistic research, has confirmed that (1) all bullets longer then their diameter will tumble in animal tissue, (2) tumbling bullets cause only small additional wounds, much like hollow points, and (3) the massive wounds caused by M193 and M855 Ball are caused by bullet fragmentation tearing the walls of the temporary cavity resulting in 150mm wounds. Temporary cavity requires rifle velocity target strikes (pistol bullets have very minor temporary cavities if at all) and the fragmentation of these rounds does not occur below 2500fps, or about 150 meters.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 11:42:03 AM EDT
I don't believe that you where even in the millitary, I think your just one of those guy's who think's he was, "or just a plain out lier". 30+ years ago sure the gun's wasn't as reliable because the bore wasn't chromed, and just because a few special op's guy's got wasted in Somalia that's no reason to blame the weapon, it's their own fault. It's all about wound size anyway not about knocking someone on their ass.

So Fuck Off!
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 12:05:57 PM EDT

Ask the Rangers about the amazing stopping power of the 5.56mm in Somalia.


1. They had very short barrels (low velocity) 2. They were shooting SS109 bullets
3. The targets were very thin and didn't allow for optimum fragmentation


Why do you think that the police still choose to use the old 12 gauge pumps?


1. To pander to the lowest common denominator. (dummy proof)

2. Very intimidating.

Link Posted: 11/21/2001 12:06:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 12:07:02 PM EDT
The 5.56 as a defenisive round, kind of depends on the setting. Its been a long time since I have been a jungle setting, I would take the 5.56 over the .30 carbine, barley. House to house the 5.56 everytime, although not in an AR15 type rifle, my M17s or other bullpup would be my first choise. In the gulf I really missed my FAL, I did not even own it yet, but I missed it non the less. In Panama a few years before that, my M1D was my baby, but I was a sniper at the time. I know now the scope sucked, then, it was great. Now in the burbs of Colorado Springs I keep a Win 1300 defender and a lowly .38 ready to go on the home front. My carry is a DW M15 .357 2.5", the AR is resurved for the range, as is the M17s, and the FAL. Defense? Nope thay are semi versions of assult rifles and in the assult they excel.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 12:18:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rg00red:

More effective than 12 gauge? Umm...NO! ....



Range, and little things like that figure into the equation also, don't they?
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 12:37:43 PM EDT


Ask the Rangers about the amazing stopping power of the 5.56mm in Somalia


There are lots of issues unresolved with that, which have been talked about IN DETAIL by people in the know. Both on this site and on the AR15-L e-mail list.



Ask a Vietnam vet what they think of the M-16


Uhh Chuck is a Vietnam vet. So is Dr. Fackler (LTC US Army (ret)) who did the research on the 5.56 round that Jandler100 points out.



The 12 gauge is a well-known close-range stopper. A Brenneke slug will leave a near 1" diameter hole in the enemy. Why do you think that the police still choose to use the old 12 gauge pumps?


Several problems with that statment:
1) Tradition (some people hate to change - your post seems to prove that). (how many PDs still carry revolvers)

2) Cost (it costs money to change)

3) Large Animals (some rural departments have to put down large animals - like Moose - and the 12 gauge is a much better round for those kind of critters)

4) Departments that are 'in the know' and have the money ARE issue 5.56 rifle, in particular the M16/AR15. Many departments allow that can't afford them do allow their LEOs to privately purchase them for carry.


Link Posted: 11/21/2001 12:56:46 PM EDT
One of you guys put this into perspective for me alright. If ball ammo is so great why is it that there is not one Game and Fish Agency in the country that will let you use ball/fmj for hunting (it's about killing something, is'nt it?). And my last question is if you're useing the 5.56/.223 for defensive purposes, and are not constrained by the Geneva Convention why not the SP type bullets?
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 1:12:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CIB:
One of you guys put this into perspective for me alright. If ball ammo is so great why is it that there is not one Game and Fish Agency in the country that will let you use ball/fmj for hunting (it's about killing something, is'nt it?). And my last question is if you're useing the 5.56/.223 for defensive purposes, and are not constrained by the Geneva Convention why not the SP type bullets?



Not all Ball ammo, just M193 & M855. Besides if you do use it you will damage more meat than needed (you missed the photo post a few months back of one AR15.comer who took a deer with M193).

We (the US) are NOT constrainded by the HAUGE Convention. We did not sign it, but we do follow it. What does SP give you that M193 & M855 does not? Especially since if you withing the 'performance zone' these FMJ loadings will make larger holes in the target.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 1:18:01 PM EDT

On 16 June 1962, one platoon from the 340 Ranger Company was on an operation...and contacted three armed Viet Cong in heavily forested jungle. Two VC had carbines, grenades, mines and one had a sub-machinegun. At a distance of approximately 15 meters, one Ranger fired an AR-15 full automatic hitting one Viet Cong with three rounds in the first burst. One round in the head took it completely off. Another in the right arm, took it completely off too. One round hit him in the right side, causing a hole about five inches in diameter...it can be assumed that any one of the three wounds would have caused death.



I've talked with my dad about this in the past. He told me that this story is largely fiction, although most folks were very suprised that the 5.56 wounded as much as it did. The above story may have been fabricated to help "sell" the concept of SCHV, once the initial AF purchases were made. The little 5.56 makes ugly wounds in tissue as mentioned by Chuck above, but the story quoted is a myth.

My dad would know too.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 1:27:12 PM EDT
Forest, I did not say that we were constrained by any convention, just said that if you were "not". Last week I had a friend kill a deer with a 50gr. Nosler BT, the only thing I have seen do more damage is a 130gr. .277 BT. For what it's worth I've seen several guys that have been hit with the 62gr. military loading, as well as several hit with 7.62 M60 loading, none of them looked like that deer. Though 7 of them were just as dead.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 1:29:41 PM EDT
Other than taking up space on a discussion board and giving everyone a chance to speak their mind, this debate is pointless.

First 99% of break-ins occur while people are away from home. So in that situation your prized weapons (unless secured) are going to the pawn shop, and the pawn broke will determine which is the most valuable.

Now for the 1% that happen while someone is at home, it is usually some drugged-out loser looking for a quick way to make money to score more dope, or a dumb burgler or kid who doesn't know you are home.

Thankfully, I have never been in that 1%, but I have been really freightened before and can guarantee you that you will be scared shitless, and lucky if you can find your weapon let alone make a rational decission.

If the situation ever presents itself, hopefully you will...
1. Grab and ready your weapon,
2. Make yourself as small a target as possible, 3. Call 911
4. Yell "I have a gun, have called 911 and will shoot you if you come into the room." (Leave 911 on the line so they have a recording of you warning the intruder, for liability reasons.)
5. Don't leave the room until the police show up.
(It's not what Mel Gibson would do, but Mel is on a sound stage, not your dark bedroom at 3:00 am with a racing pulse, ringing ears, etc.)

This should thin out about 99% of the 1%. (Really, would you hang around, open a door or walk through a doorway if someone yelled that to you?) Remeber, criminals don't want to get caught, shot or work too hard. And you just presented them with all three likly options at once. Plus, regardless of all of our "John Wayne" bravado, we really don't want to kill somebody unless we have no other choice.

Now the 1% of the 1% that decides to come through the door is fair game and deserves to be punctured. As they come through the door, You should get 2-3 good shots at 10', if you hit them, with anything bigger than an airsoft pellet, they will not bother you again.

Now at this point your biggest risk is going to jail because some prosecuter decides to crack down on people taking the law into their own hands or your .223/.308 round goes through the perp, through the wall across the street and kills your neighbor.

So don't use any politically incorrect ammo, (i.e. Black Talons, reloads, etc.) that could be presented to a jury to prove what a blood-thursty nut case you really are. If you are not using a shotgun, a good old fashioned hollow-point or HydraShock round should work just fine.

Now if you want to open up a real fun thread, let's decide what to do if you were lucky enough to have a little red Toyoto pick-up carrying 15-20 Tallys drive up your street looking for a fight. I know I've dreamed about it!
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 1:35:16 PM EDT

Now if you want to open up a real fun thread, let's decide what to do if you were lucky enough to have a little red Toyoto pick-up carrying 15-20 Tallys drive up your street looking for a fight. I know I've dreamed about it!


LOL!!!! That's easy! I'd unload on them with my quad 50! 20mm is expensive so the Vulcan stays silent....
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 1:37:45 PM EDT
newtoma is correct on all counts. However, before yelling anything about a gun, I'd let them hear me rack the pump on my 870...
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 2:10:41 PM EDT
"30+ years ago sure the gun's wasn't as reliable because the bore wasn't chromed,"

That's not why it wasn't reliable , the weapon was designed to use a specific powder which the military decided didn't generate the proper pressure, so they substituted another powder which caused excessive fouling, etc... Oh never mind, go read a freakin' book about the development of the M-16 and be educated.

"and just because a few special op's guy's got wasted in Somalia that's no reason to blame the weapon, it's their own fault."

Dude, you had to have won some kind of Dumbass Award for that post. I have some buddies over on a Somalia Forum who would sure give you a lesson in manners and ballistics. The M-16 variants used in Somalia were far removed from the Vietnam issue. Damn dumb dumb, oh never mind... Besides, it wasn't the rifle, it was the rounds they used. Contrary to what a lot of people have posted, the M855 round is designed to defeat body armor, so it's not the best round if you're shooting thin dudes on hash in the streets of Mogadishu.

The round used in the A1's did cause serious tissue damage, including blowing off of heads, limbs, etc... I've seen ballistics reports, as well as after action photo's thanks to my Uncle's (retired SF Colonel) special photo album from Vietnam. Three tours makes him a definitive source in my book.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 3:56:36 PM EDT
Troy´s link must be made mandatory to all new arm chair commandos, read that and save the time, to rant about things you do not know, for something useful.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 6:14:54 PM EDT
I tend to believe Fackler that the .223 is a pretty effective FMJ round so long as the velocity is above 2700 fps, better than 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 as far as wounding.

He also did a chart showing the wound produced by 30-06 silvertips, and it dwarfs the .223 FMJ wound. It penetrates farther and wound channel is much larger. You do not need to go through 5" of tissue for the round to fragment either.

In my experience with man-sized game, the 30-06 (and therefore 308) are overkill. Overkill is not a bad thing, but I think you are suffering from more recoil and carrying less ammo than you could. I am not sure if the .223 is underkill, Fackler tends to indicate it is not, but it sure is easy to shoot. I feel pretty comfortable with .223, and think I can shoot it more accurately and faster than I can with a 308.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 6:16:29 PM EDT
I have a copy of Fackler's 30-06 graphic, if anyone wants to post it I can e-mail it to them. It is really awesome.
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 9:26:27 PM EDT
I'd go with what Chuck and others have said. Given adequete velocity, 5.56mm military ball will cause devastating wounds in soft tissue, thereby making it more than adequete for defensive purposes. But what do I know? I'm just a newbie
Link Posted: 11/21/2001 11:52:31 PM EDT
CIB - ball is legal in Texas - got over 4 million deer and untold numbers of hogs, so it's not a small, isolated case. I ASSURE you that 5.56 works.

Tate
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 12:27:17 AM EDT
Damm, I had a batch of 110 grain semi jacketed hollow pionts,.30cal. I loaded these carbine bullets into my 30 06 cases. they functioned flawlessly in my Garand and were blazing fast. I have often wondered what effect they would have on a human. Any Ideas? As I recall they zipped at 3000 fps, at max. load 3200 fps.
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 3:14:03 AM EDT
Perhaps the most effective weapon for home defense might be a small thermonuclear device rigged to pressure pads placed at every door and window.Additionally containers of sarin gas,strategically placed throughout the house on a mechanical( remember the emp pulse will disable all electronics)timer would allow you awaken your family and don gas masks before the intruders have recovered from the blast and shockwave of the bomb.These prelimary tactics should give you ample time to find and load your weapon of choice,be it rifle pistol,or shotgun,don hearing and eye protection,and prosecute a search and destroy mission for the bad guys.
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 5:08:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tate:
CIB - ball is legal in Texas - got over 4 million deer and untold numbers of hogs, so it's not a small, isolated case. I ASSURE you that 5.56 works.

Tate



Tate, I know that ball ammo works, I've used it in combat. I never said that it did'nt. What I'm asking and nobody seems to get is why would'nt a bullet designed to fragment works better than one that usually breaks at the cannelure and into 3-5 pieces? Have you guys never used today's modern hunting bullets? Or saw the results of said bullets? I'll restate the thing about Game and Fish dept's to 95% don't allow military or fmj, why?
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 5:27:42 AM EDT
I love my AR-15, but if .223 is such an effective load, why do more deer hunters use .308 and .30-06?
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 5:30:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sf46:
I love my AR-15, but if .223 is such an effective load, why do more deer hunters use .308 and .30-06?



......and expanding bullets! LOL!!!!
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 11:28:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2001 11:23:14 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 3:41:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By CIB:

Originally Posted By sf46:
I love my AR-15, but if .223 is such an effective load, why do more deer hunters use .308 and .30-06?



......and expanding bullets! LOL!!!!



Simple:

- Though few hunters will ever take a shot beyond 100 yards, no one wants to go into the field with a rifle that might prevent them from going home with that imagined deer that presented "the perfect 500 yard shot."

- .223 rounds are easily deflected by even light foliage. Hunters don't always want to wait until the deer is completely out in the open to take a shot.

- Though there are plenty of good hunters who could (and in some states, DO) take deer with .223, recognizing its limits in range and cover penetration and staying within them, a large number of hunters are inexperienced, and would end up wounding a lot of animals due to poor aim or taking ill-advised shots (too long, too much brush, etc.). Since Fish & Game usually make their rules based on the "lowest common denominator" of hunter, they usually choose a minimum bullet that is very forgiving of mistakes.

- Fragmenting FMJ bullets make a big mess of an animal, and most hunters want to kill an animal as quickly as possible while damaging the meat/pelt as little as possible. SP bullets do a better job of meeting this conflicting demand. People in combat aren't interested in meat or hides, just in removing the opponents ability to fight.

-Troy




People in combat aren't interested in meat or hides, just in removing the opponents ability to fight.

All depends were you were at i hate to find my skull sitting in some arabics office being used has an ashtray.
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 6:40:13 AM EDT
O.K., O.K. I'm through playing devil's advocate. Though you still have'nt convinced me the FMJ is the best in every situation. Perhaps that is a topic for another day.
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 1:54:09 PM EDT
That sound of a pump being worked is probably why most police departments keep them.
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 3:35:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By newtoma:
That sound of a pump being worked is probably why most police departments keep them.



I think the reason the Cop's use shotguns is because of nonleathel ammo beanbags, rubber slugs, etc! especially today's "NONLEATHEL" sociaty.
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 3:50:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 4:25:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2001 4:24:45 PM EDT by CIB]
I will agree whole heartedly with that statement!

FMJ got everyone of those guys.

Link Posted: 11/23/2001 4:33:55 PM EDT
hell yea my man nuff said.............
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 4:48:11 PM EDT
Iam shure about the task force ranger situation was that a suit and neck tie polititian got those ranger's killed they asked for armour support "DIDNT GET IT" why! don't know! has for ss109 performance issue think about this you are under rules of engagement! these somali fighter's were in fact using women has cover hiding behind a unarmed woman shooting from underneath there arm's the rangers were under extreme diffulculty! don't
blame faulty weapons, rangers, blame the suit's
in washington for denying proper support they
asked for and were denyed
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 5:49:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2001 5:52:48 PM EDT by ttman]
having watched the History Channel's documentary on the M16, BOTH were valid reasons why the gun was not up to par on reliability.

as for the .223 being superior to .30 calibers for large game... ...it's LUDICROUS. the .223 was designed as a varmint cartridge. you're only fooling yourself if u think otherwise. the .223 is not the solve all, end all, miracle cartridge some of u would like to believe. I've heard stories of hunters hacing to shoot deer 7,8 times to kill it, with the .223. I know shot placement is important, but please have some mercy on the poor animal.

as a home defense load, ANY hi-power centerfire rifle cartridge is OVER-KILL & presents overpenentration problems. a 20G or pistol round will do just fine, IMO.


Originally Posted By Fallschirmjager:
"30+ years ago sure the gun's wasn't as reliable because the bore wasn't chromed,"

That's not why it wasn't reliable , the weapon was designed to use a specific powder which the military decided didn't generate the proper pressure, so they substituted another powder which caused excessive fouling, etc... Oh never mind, go read a freakin' book about the development of the M-16 and be educated.


Link Posted: 11/27/2001 3:04:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2001 2:57:13 PM EDT by Derek45]

Originally Posted By imposter:
I have a copy of Fackler's 30-06 graphic, if anyone wants to post it I can e-mail it to them. It is really awesome.



Here you go. 30-06 round
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 3:34:40 PM EDT
"OOOOOH! IT MAKE'S ME BLUE!"
"OOOOOH! I TALK TO FOOL'S!"


I Float like a butterfly, Sting like a Bee!
That's why they call me the M16!


Link Posted: 11/27/2001 4:33:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By newtoma:
Now at this point your biggest risk is going to jail because some prosecuter decides to crack down on people taking the law into their own hands or your .223/.308 round goes through the perp, through the wall across the street and kills your neighbor.


I have seen a test done where .223 actually penetrates less in homes than most handgun rounds(.45, 9mm, etc)
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 5:05:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
We (the US) are NOT constrainded by the HAUGE Convention. We did not sign it, but we do follow it. What does SP give you that M193 & M855 does not? Especially since if you withing the 'performance zone' these FMJ loadings will make larger holes in the target.



According to the FM 27-10 (Laws of Land Warfare) the us is a party to the Hague Convention No. IV of 18 October 1907, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land (36 Stat. 2277; Treaty Series 539), cited herein as H. IV, and the Annex thereto, embodying the Regulations Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land (36 Stat. 2295; Treaty Series 539), cited herein as HR.


the specifics of this treaty include "It is especially forbidden * * * to employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering. (HR, art. 23, par. (e).) "
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