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12/6/2019 7:27:02 PM
Posted: 9/12/2014 12:28:10 AM EST
Hey gang. I need some advice. As some of you may know, Washington's new SBR law has been questioned by some who claim that you can't "make" your new SBR in the state of Washington because possession/transfer etc. is specifically stated as being legal in the law, but "making" is not. I don't buy that interpretation, but as a result, some Washingtonians are opting to be abundantly cautious and plan on using the process outlined in the NFA Handbook in which you can use a 5320.20 to transport your parts to a different state in order to get 'assistance' (from a smith, friend, whatever) making your SBR...and once made, they will bring it back into WA ("transporting" an SBR is implicitly stated as being legal in Wa law). Quote from the NFA Handbook:

If the applicant on the Form 1 lacks the skill, ability, and/or equipment to manufacture the NFA firearm, the applicant, after receipt of the approved Form 1, can have the firearm created or modified at a premises other than shown on the approved Form 1 as long as the creation or modification was done under the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of the firearm. If the location is outside the applicant’s State and the firearm being made is a short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, destructive device, or an unserviceable machinegun which is being reactivated, the applicant will also need to request permission to transport the firearm interstate as required by 27 CFR 478.28.
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If that was the plan, lets say you were going to go to a friends house to get his/her "help". What would you put down in block 5: Reason for Transport? I'm concerned that if I put "assistance with making the SBR" or something along those lines then the examiner will kick it back saying something like "SBR has to be made in the location indicated on the Form 1" or something like that (even though their handbook says it's kosher!). Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but would it be smarter to just put something generalized? Does "all legal purposes" get approved?
Link Posted: 9/12/2014 7:54:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2014 7:55:52 AM EST by BigWaylon]
Every one of mine says "all lawful purposes" or "all lawful reasons", depending on what I remembered to type. Same thing that's on all if my Form 1s.
Link Posted: 9/12/2014 10:04:35 AM EST
I've always put "for all legal purposes" and have never had an issue. Don't overthink it. Just get it done.
Link Posted: 9/12/2014 2:36:56 PM EST
Will do, thanks for the info guys!
Link Posted: 9/12/2014 11:28:18 PM EST
So if you take it out of state to make, who's name, city and state will you have engraved on the lower?
Link Posted: 9/12/2014 11:32:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2014 11:35:07 PM EST by SirSqueeboo]
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Originally Posted By SgtRock2:
So if you take it out of state to make, who's name, city and state will you have engraved on the lower?
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You/trust/corp are the manufacturer, the "home" is what is engraved, not its geographic location at the time.
Link Posted: 9/13/2014 12:21:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2014 12:24:11 AM EST by jekbrown]
What he said. AFAIK this is the only exception to the "engrave the city/state where the SBR is made" rule...

I'm very glad that the ATF allows this process, because an idiotic decision by an AG and/or a judge could easily f up the Washington law. It was horribly written. Striking all current references to SBRs would have instantly and unquestionably "unbanned" them at the state level, but nooooooooo...
Link Posted: 9/13/2014 7:32:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2014 9:57:11 AM EST by BigWaylon]
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Originally Posted By SirSqueeboo:

You/trust/corp are the manufacturer, the "home" is what is engraved, not its geographic location at the time.
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Originally Posted By SirSqueeboo:
Originally Posted By SgtRock2:
So if you take it out of state to make, who's name, city and state will you have engraved on the lower?

You/trust/corp are the manufacturer, the "home" is what is engraved, not its geographic location at the time.

Both of those bits of info are incorrect for a Form 1 build. I don't know how WA can have an exception to the rule for the location being engraved.

You are a maker, not a manufacturer. The location engraved is the physical location where the firearm was made/assembled. It has nothing to do with the actual home or business address of the maker, although it's quite often the same as one of them. That's what the regulations clearly state.

Manufacturing is a whole different set of forms, taxes, laws, etc...and the location is indeed where the place of business is physically located.
Link Posted: 9/13/2014 5:24:02 PM EST
It's not WA that has the exception, it's ATF in the handbook. If you drive across the border and never lose possession of the gun while it's being made (with help) you don't need to transfer it, and I'm pretty sure ATF wants you to put the trust address in the engraving. I mean, it's theoretically possible that a gun could be made in multiple states (bbl goes on in or, but stock and engraving is done in WA), what are you supposed to do, list all the cities/states?
Link Posted: 9/13/2014 6:25:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2014 6:35:55 PM EST by BigWaylon]
Not talking at all about a transfer.

The gun isn't "made" until you put the upper on the lower. You could build the lower anywhere you want, and build the upper anywhere you want...then drive to the town near you with the shortest (or most interesting) name, attach the upper to the lower, and that's the info that should be engraved. Not saying it makes a lot of sense, but that's how the statutes are written.

Most trusts don't have addresses, just the trustees.

Here's the relevant portion of 27 CFR 479.102 regarding firearm identification/markings:

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm;


Doesn't say anything about where you live or work...which is different than what you see listed for manufacturer.

Granted...how that location is ever proven/verified vs what is engraved is a whole different rabbit to chase.
Link Posted: 9/14/2014 9:29:37 AM EST
So if an SBR was made in another state, in the scenario referenced in the original post, and it says "Portland, OR" on it, would I then need to do a 5320.20 to permanently change the address where the gun is kept? I mean, if the ATF considers the gun to have been "born" in Oregon, it seems like you would...
Link Posted: 9/14/2014 10:45:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2014 10:48:43 AM EST by BigWaylon]
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
So if an SBR was made in another state, in the scenario referenced in the original post, and it says "Portland, OR" on it, would I then need to do a 5320.20 to permanently change the address where the gun is kept? I mean, if the ATF considers the gun to have been "born" in Oregon, it seems like you would...
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Those are the same questions I'm asking myself. I'd like to see how the ATF interprets that.

The issue (to me) is you've applied to Make (the title of the Form 1) the firearm in WA, so that's the laws that the ATF is using when approving/disapproving the form. Then, WA has a gray area that may mean you can't make it (which doesn't seem right, else the ATF would've disapproved the application). Now, you want to take parts out of state, make a firearm, then bring it back into the state. So, in the example it's actually being made in OR. Crossing the state lines seems as if it would require a 5320.20. But, it wouldn't be for a permanent move because the Form 1 already shows it in WA.

It's like 3-4 gray areas all rolled into one.

Bottom line (to me) would be you submitted a Form 1 to make the firearm in WA, and that's what was approved by the ATF. A transfer would be on a Form 4. The only way to legally possess one, would be to have an approved "make" or "transfer" form.
Link Posted: 9/14/2014 1:56:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2014 2:11:32 PM EST by jekbrown]
I would tend to agree. I plan on using 5320.20s and 'making' in Oregon under the allowances from the NFA handbook. Just to be safe. I work in security...and if I lose my ability to legally carry a gun, I lose my career. Therefore, I want to jump through every available hoop. Many in WA are just saying "screw it" and making their SBRs in WA. IMO, the state law allows for that....but a crazy judge can break a steel ball in a rubber room if you let him. I figure it's safer to use the 'you can make it in another state if you need help' exception, just in case a WA judge every goes nutty (not all that unlikely!), all my stuff will still be legal. Oregon doesn't care...Feds will have approved everything so they are good...and Washington can't ban the making of something in a different state so.....I should be good.

At this point, as I swim across the channel where the gray sea meets the gray river, the question is what to put down for the city/state where the gun was "made". Yes, I know the letter of the law says 'where it WAS made'...but as you said, I was authorized to make in WA (ATF's perspective), the Trust's "home" is in WA...and considering that it's a temporary back/forth kind of thing it's not a stretch to think that the ATF would want you to put Vancouver, WA on the engraving. That's what's on Form 1, that's the address of the Trust, and that's my home address....and no one else will ever be the legal owner/possessor (gun smith or whatever)... so....
Link Posted: 9/14/2014 2:07:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2014 2:08:36 PM EST by BigWaylon]
Just to be clear...you'd only need one 5320.20. Pointing that out because you added an "s" when you posted it. You don't need it for crossing the line, just to be in the other state. So, you don't need one to cross into OR and one to cross back into WA.

The registry will show you're in WA, so fill one out for the location in OR you're going. Go ahead and put a full year for the timeframe (I.e. 10/1/14-9/30/15). That was you can go be in OR with no advance notice for the next year. (You can also fax the form in, even though the form says the signatures must be in ink).

Good luck on the build...and congrats for being able to finally own one in Oregon.
Link Posted: 9/14/2014 2:12:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2014 2:17:32 PM EST by jekbrown]
form only lets you put 3 guns down...

Thanks to this site, I have the form figured out...I just dunno what to engrave. None of the other states have such poorly written SBR laws, so this isn't exactly a topic of frequent discussion!
Link Posted: 9/14/2014 2:21:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2014 2:22:02 PM EST by BigWaylon]
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
form only lets you put 3 guns down...

Thanks to this site, I have the form figured out...I just dunno what to engrave. None of the other states have such poorly written SBR laws, so this isn't exactly a topic of frequent discussion!
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Good point. I have to send in 2 pages every time as well. Just glad I don't need them for suppressors.

The engraving seems straightforward. You'd engrave where it was made...plus, that would confirm is was never made in WA. but if you'd rather have it match the F1, who's going to question it?
Link Posted: 9/14/2014 4:11:57 PM EST
Im in the same situation, form 1 coming back soon. I know it doesnt matter but just recently the ATF responded to a member here in the hometown forum and said to engrave the addy of the trust. I know you cant trust what they say but im really leaning towards engraving WA on my receiver. Im sure the "make" issue will eventually be cleared up and nobody is ever going to question it anyway. Still on the fence though.
Link Posted: 9/15/2014 11:23:00 PM EST
overall this is so fucking annoying.. seriously. leave to a whole bunch of enviro-lefty-cunty-assholes. yes I went there
Link Posted: 9/16/2014 6:07:33 AM EST
This whole scenario seems frivolous to me, as ATF would not approve the F1 if they believed it could place you in violation of WA law by making the thing.

That said, I'd engrave the WA location.

I would also only do one 5320.20. It would be to show/request movement from the other state into WA. Reasons being:
1) It's not a SBR until you "make" it, therefore you don't need permission to take the parts out of WA. (OK to be super technical, let's say don't leave WA carrying ALL of the required SBR parts. You are then unquestionably NOT in possession of a SBR).
2) Your intent here is to document it was built out-of-state right? So doing a 5320.20 to get permission going out of WA doesn't support that, but just one showing it going in would. I'd also put something about "initial maker assembly occurred in XX state" on the form. You may have to talk to tech branch if an examiner gets confused by all this, but that approved form should provide excellent defense in the unlikely event WA state comes for you.

This is all just my non-lawyer guesswork opinion, of course.
Link Posted: 9/16/2014 11:01:04 PM EST
Please don't bring up the goofiness of the WS law with the Tech Branch - at least not until all my eform1's come back.
Link Posted: 9/18/2014 8:01:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2014 9:52:39 AM EST by Gopherboy128]
[Shitty comment deleted]
Link Posted: 9/19/2014 6:49:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2014 6:52:34 PM EST by jekbrown]
hey hippie, if you really were active in the WA sub-forum and the SBR threads there, you know I posted a shitload of times from the pro-"making is OK" camp. I was the guy quoting the handbook, state law, federal law etc. while the haters weren't referencing a damn thing. I even coined the term "Nail Biter Interpretation" to refer to the idea that making would be illegal under the current wording of the law. So it's not like I don't think it's legal.

That said, all it takes is one guy in a robe or a rogue AG or cop or prosecutor and this situation could be totally f'ed up. I carry a gun for a living. If I get busted on a gun charge, I will lose my job--so this isn't a game, for me anyway. By "busted" I don't mean convicted. Even a charge will cause my armed security license to be suspended, and without that license I can't work. I also happen to live right on the border and go to Portland daily. Even if there is only a 1 in a million chance that I'd ever get in a legal entanglement over this, it's worth it to me to submit a 5320.20 and assemble/make the SBRs across the river. If it never comes up, or WA amends the law, or whatever...no skin of my teeth. It's gonna cost 49 cents plus whatever an envelope and a piece of paper costs. Cheap insurance. I'd rather have zero risk than a small amount of risk.
Link Posted: 9/19/2014 7:17:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2014 7:23:27 PM EST by BigWaylon]
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Even if there is only a 1 in a million chance that I'd ever get in a legal entanglement over this, it's worth it to me to submit a 5320.20 and assemble/make the SBRs across the river. If it never comes up, or WA amends the law, or whatever...no skin of my teeth. It's gonna cost 49 cents plus whatever an envelope and a piece of paper costs. Cheap insurance. I'd rather have zero risk than a small amount of risk.
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I'll save you the $.49 and the cost of the envelope.

You can fax in a 5320.20, regardless of the fact the form says signatures must be in ink.

Here's one I did recently for all of 2015...notice my fax stamp across the top?

Link Posted: 9/19/2014 9:02:54 PM EST
If you're already going through the nail-biting act of doing this, and the form reads "signatures must be in ink," I'd go all the way and spend the 49 cents. Some lawyer, man in the robe, rogue squadron, or whatever, might decide they can quash it because you didn't follow what the form said.

?Again, not a lawyer...
Link Posted: 9/19/2014 9:14:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
If you're already going through the nail-biting act of doing this, and the form reads "signatures must be in ink," I'd go all the way and spend the 49 cents. Some lawyer, man in the robe, rogue squadron, or whatever, might decide they can quash it because you didn't follow what the form said.
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They're in ink...printer ink. Says so right there on the box.
Link Posted: 9/21/2014 4:32:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2014 4:33:07 PM EST by Recusance]
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Originally Posted By BigWaylon:

Those are the same questions I'm asking myself. I'd like to see how the ATF interprets that.

The issue (to me) is you've applied to Make (the title of the Form 1) the firearm in WA, so that's the laws that the ATF is using when approving/disapproving the form. Then, WA has a gray area that may mean you can't make it (which doesn't seem right, else the ATF would've disapproved the application). Now, you want to take parts out of state, make a firearm, then bring it back into the state. So, in the example it's actually being made in OR. Crossing the state lines seems as if it would require a 5320.20. But, it wouldn't be for a permanent move because the Form 1 already shows it in WA.

It's like 3-4 gray areas all rolled into one.

Bottom line (to me) would be you submitted a Form 1 to make the firearm in WA, and that's what was approved by the ATF. A transfer would be on a Form 4. The only way to legally possess one, would be to have an approved "make" or "transfer" form.
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Originally Posted By BigWaylon:
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
So if an SBR was made in another state, in the scenario referenced in the original post, and it says "Portland, OR" on it, would I then need to do a 5320.20 to permanently change the address where the gun is kept? I mean, if the ATF considers the gun to have been "born" in Oregon, it seems like you would...

Those are the same questions I'm asking myself. I'd like to see how the ATF interprets that.

The issue (to me) is you've applied to Make (the title of the Form 1) the firearm in WA, so that's the laws that the ATF is using when approving/disapproving the form. Then, WA has a gray area that may mean you can't make it (which doesn't seem right, else the ATF would've disapproved the application). Now, you want to take parts out of state, make a firearm, then bring it back into the state. So, in the example it's actually being made in OR. Crossing the state lines seems as if it would require a 5320.20. But, it wouldn't be for a permanent move because the Form 1 already shows it in WA.

It's like 3-4 gray areas all rolled into one.

Bottom line (to me) would be you submitted a Form 1 to make the firearm in WA, and that's what was approved by the ATF. A transfer would be on a Form 4. The only way to legally possess one, would be to have an approved "make" or "transfer" form.

I just talked to the ATF about this. I was moving "residence" in the same state and they want a 5320.20 for filled out and mailed to them so they can update where the firearm is kept......she said it's the exact same form as I would use if I were taking the SBR to Idaho for a training or hunting trip. you just fill out some of the lines differently. (I don't have one to look at right now so I can't say what lines would be different.)

Point being the ATF said it's the same form if you are permanently moving the residence of the firearm or just going hunting for a week. the gun is not getting re-engraved to my new home, it still has my old home city and state.
Link Posted: 9/21/2014 4:45:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2014 4:46:56 PM EST by BigWaylon]
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Originally Posted By Recusance:
I just talked to the ATF about this. I was moving "residence" in the same state and they want a 5320.20 for filled out and mailed to them so they can update where the firearm is kept......she said it's the exact same form as I would use if I were taking the SBR to Idaho for a training or hunting trip. you just fill out some of the lines differently. (I don't have one to look at right now so I can't say what lines would be different.)

Point being the ATF said it's the same form if you are permanently moving the residence of the firearm or just going hunting for a week. the gun is not getting re-engraved to my new home, it still has my old home city and state.
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A couple things.

1. Temporary transport and permanent move definitely use the same form. They used to take letters in lieu of for permanent moves, but that's no longer the case.
2. For a Permanent move, you simply check "no" in the box (box 2) where it asked if items will be returned to the original location, and then put "permanent change of address" in the reason (box 5) field (it's actually the example given on the form). You can see both of those items in the form I posted earlier.
3. They want a form filled out for an in-state move for the reason they gave you. However, there's no requirement to send it. Not going to hurt to send it, but you can't find a statute that requires notification for in-state moves.
Link Posted: 9/21/2014 6:54:55 PM EST
+1 to the above 3 things.
Link Posted: 9/22/2014 12:34:25 AM EST
No question that I'd need a 5320.20. The only question, really, is what city/state to engrave. The black/white of the law would seem to trump the various great areas and exceptions at play here. I'm gonna put Portland, OR on the guns made in Portland. I'm also going to put "initial making, per the NFA manual section 6.4, and all other lawful purposes". On the 5320.20. Maybe not necessary, but it'll make me warm and fuzzy inside to have a form with an ATF signature on it, explicitly stating what is going on.
Link Posted: 9/22/2014 1:11:31 PM EST
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
No question that I'd need a 5320.20.
We know you know, BigWaylon was just replying to Recusance's general comments.


The only question, really, is what city/state to engrave. The black/white of the law would seem to trump the various great areas and exceptions at play here. I'm gonna put Portland, OR on the guns made in Portland. I'm also going to put "initial making, per the NFA manual section 6.4, and all other lawful purposes". On the 5320.20. Maybe not necessary, but it'll make me warm and fuzzy inside to have a form with an ATF signature on it, explicitly stating what is going on.

Do you mean the NFA Handbook? Keep in mind the preface reads, "This publication is not a law book. Rather, it is intended as a "user friendly” reference book enabling the user to quickly find answers to questions concerning the NFA. Nevertheless, it should also be useful to attorneys seeking basic information about the NFA..."
"The book is the product of a joint effort between ATF and the National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association."
NFATCA, remember them?

I wouldn't reference it, since it's not law. I would put "Initial making of this SBR occurred in Portland, OR. I wish to transport into WA to my home address, as indicated in blocks 1 and 7."


Block 2 would be checked "No".

I also think you can engrave your WA address and it won't change a thing. The law reads ..."the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm" 27 CFR 479.102

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Link Posted: 9/22/2014 1:39:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2014 1:40:58 PM EST by BigWaylon]
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
I also think you can engrave your WA address and it won't change a thing. The law reads ..."the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm" 27 CFR 479.102
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See...that's the tricky part to me.

Because he's a maker...he's not a manufacturer.
Link Posted: 9/22/2014 10:13:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2014 10:14:35 PM EST by jekbrown]
it's a little late now, I sent the 5320.20 in already! I was thinking more along practical lines, where the examiner (or whoever does 5320.20s) gets the form and looks at the reason...and says, "initial making, wtf?" The NFA handbook is a reference for us, I figure it could work the other way as well. Anyone who skims through 6.4 will know exactly what I'm trying to do. It's not law, just a reference to their handbook. In any case, they'll either approve it or they won't...hopefully I'll find out soon!
Link Posted: 10/6/2014 7:06:25 PM EST
update: faxed in my forms on 09/22/14 at 7am, got them back on 10/06/14. I used the "initial making, per the NFA manual section 6.4, and all other lawful purposes" in block 5, and it was approved. Yeah, I know that may not mean much legally because the NFA handbook isn't a legal doc and their approval doesn't necessarily mean that they approve of the "out of state work around"....but it makes me feel better having something in black/white, where if I ever did wind up in court, it could be used to help establish reasonable doubt and all that fun stuff.
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