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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/23/2005 8:21:30 AM EDT
We were out shooting my buddies winchester 1300 with an 18'' barrel. 12ga gets downright uncomfortable after awhile. He shot it 20 times and had a nice bruise. I shot it about the same amount...while I didn't bruise I still wasn't enjoying it so much.

How do you think a 20ga with 3'' mag shells would do in a SHTF/home defense roll? It would definetly be much easier to control. Winchester makes a 20ga defender which is what I was looking at.

Ahh...I'm ready for the flames...and the "your a pussy" comments. Damn AR15 made me hate anything that recoils
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:19:11 AM EDT
Here is what I belive

1st Whats important is you know how to use the firearm and are comfortable with it

2nd anyone living with you IE: wife older children should be comfortable and capable of shooting the gun

3rd The guy who is on the other end doesn't care if its a 10ga a 50 cal or a 22 mag he would rather you not point it at him

Get what you feel is best it's your house and your defense

and most crooks are so crazy or such cowards that they will leave once a shot is fired weather it is from a 20 ga or a 470 Nitro Express
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:28:05 AM EDT
Take into account that 20 gauge shotguns are generally made on a smaller action and are lighter in weight than the corresponding 12 gauge model. If you feed them heavy loads (like 3 inch magnums) they will often kick just as much or even more than the 12 guage. Try the 12 gauge with some "reduced energy" loads and see if it helps. The other option would be a gas operated model which has the benefit of softening the recoil impulse.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:28:12 AM EDT
I understand your pain and discomfort. I have been doing a lot of research and experimentation trying to find something comfortable.

The suggestion on switching to "reduced recoil" shells is a very good suggestion. There is a whole lot less kick, but from my tests they seem to be just as lethal/effective.

The other issue is, does the gun fit you? Is the stock too long? Too short? Is the angle/drop at comb wrong? This is easy to check. Shoulder the gun in your shooting position, and observe how much of the recoil pad is making contact with your body. The less the pad contacts, the more energy is concentrated into a tiny area (painful!). If the stock is too long, you are put in an awkward position, and this also results in undue pain.

The remedy for this is another stock. If the original stock is too long, there are countless options in shorter length stocks. I'm tall so most stocks are too short for me and the angle is wrong. I have switched to pistol gripped buttstocks and they work well. They have a slightly greater angle so the recoil pad is lower. Another advantage is the pistol grip transfers some of the felt recoil to my hand from my shoulder. This helps tremendously.

I have also increased length by using the slip-on recoil pads. The slip-on pads are soft so they contour to my shoulder and the whole pad makes contact. I recently tried one of the SVL (Sims Vibration Laboratory) LimbSaver recoil pads. Wow what a difference! I put it on a little NEF youth 12gauge ( this has got to be the lightest 12 gauge in existence). With the LimbSaver pad I fired full power 2 3/4" buchshot loads with no discomfort at all. None. I usually have a bruised/marked-up shoulder from any 12gauge I shoot, but not this time. I fired some reduced recoil slugs too. I'll try full powered slugs next time.

While we're talking shoulders, I'll mention shooting position. When you are shooting, swing your strongside elbow out. Don't have it low or tucked into your ribs. There is something about swinging the elbow out that puts the muscles in a better position to take the recoil. If there are any shooting instructors reading this, they'll back me up on that.

Back to your original question, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 20gauge for defense. The Winchester Defenders are excellent guns. I don't have any experience with the 20gauge Defender, but I am building my own from a 20gauge Ranger 120 (youth model). The 20gauge Defender is only 4 oz. lighter than the 12gauge, so weight is negligible. If you shed 4 oz. in a handgun, that is a major weight reduction, but the Winchester Defenders are 6lbs 8oz for the 12 and 6lbs 4oz for the 20. You need to change weight by the pound in a shotgun to feel any difference.

One of the good reasons to get the Winchester 20gauge over any other brand is that it accepts all the aftermarket accessories and stocks that the 12gauge does. That is not the case with Mossberg or Remington. That is important because there are little to no accessories made for anything other than 12gauge guns.

I don't know if you would have to use 3" shells in the gun. I have had good success with 2 3/4" 20gauge ammo. Ammo is something you need to consider. There is a huge and wide selection and variety of 12gauge ammo. If you close your eyes and imagine something insane, chances are somebody makes it in 12gauge. But the selection in 20gauge defense loads is somewhat limited. Do some ammo shopping before you finalize your decision.

I touched on a myriad of items, but I hope it helps.

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:54:44 AM EDT
I have a rem 870 20ga. I shoot 3 in mags out of it all the time. It definately has less recoil than a 12 ga. The stock on it is removable. It has a pistol grip that stays on all the time, but you can attach the stock to the back of the pistol grip. With or without the stock, I can shoot it all day long and it doesn't bother me. The only thing about using a 20 ga is that its hard to find accessories for them. Everything is made for 12 ga, but you can usually make them work with a little modifying
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:33:36 PM EDT
See, that's what I'm talking about- you can take a stock, mag tube extension, whatever, right off of a 12 gauge Winchester and it will bolt right up on a 20 gauge Winchester. No modifications necessary. That is another reason I like the Winchesters so much.

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:45:39 PM EDT
Hell a 410 up close with a slug is going to make someones day bad. 20 guage will do with the right round. Buckshot is all you need inside a house.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:51:33 PM EDT
A 20g will work just fine.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:52:11 PM EDT
get a 10 guage shotgun.. hehe you will be paying for many a repair if you fire that sob in the house
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:17:26 PM EDT
I have shot a lot of Remington 3'' nitro magnums through an old winchester shotgun I hunt with. Recoil isn't bad.

The 12 gauge fits me well. Would be nice if the stock was a tad shorter. I hate long stocks since I started shoot my AR with the stock on the 2nd hole.

I think the 20ga would just be easier to shoot and also allow for faster follow ups.

Anyone know if you can get a longer barrel for the defender 20ga? For hunting tree rats.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:54:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
I have shot a lot of Remington 3'' nitro magnums through an old winchester shotgun I hunt with. Recoil isn't bad.

The 12 gauge fits me well. Would be nice if the stock was a tad shorter. I hate long stocks since I started shoot my AR with the stock on the 2nd hole.

I think the 20ga would just be easier to shoot and also allow for faster follow ups.

Anyone know if you can get a longer barrel for the defender 20ga? For hunting tree rats.



The Defender is an 8-shot. All the other Winchester 1300 models aren't. I'm not saying there are no longer barrels, but it is highly unlikely.

You are wanting 20gauge, a slightly longer barrel, and the stock could be a tad shorter. You are luck! You need the 1300 Ranger Compact. It is 20gauge, the barrel is 22" long with screw in chokes, and the stock is 1" shorter than the standard guns. www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=512&type_id=036&cat=012C

I've got the older version of this. I had to put a longer stock on it with my build. Mine was used and came with a Modified choke tube only. I bought a Full choke tube from these guys www.choketube.com/
That's a real hard one to remember. Anyway, it has been out squirrel hunting every year for the past 2 or 3 years and has taken its share of squirrels at distances up to 50 yards.

I am going to "Defender-ize" it eventually. The 12gauge mag tube extensions fit the 20gauge Winchesters and these guns will take the +3 tubes. The ATI mag tube extension was a disaster, so I'll try the Choate next. I'll probably get a Speedfeed IV Tactical Stock www.speedfeedinc.com/?location=products
and get an IC choke tube from Carlson's. I'm still not sure if I am going to replace the slide or not. That short slide is kind of neat, but I may need to switch to the slightly longer (tactical or police is the term mentioned in the parts catalogs) slide. I still can't make up my mind on that. When I finally get it all converted, it will be a one of a kind "rural assault shotgun". It will continue to hunt and keep me from being hunted.

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:26:30 PM EDT
I guess I have no need to use this shotgun to hunt with. Because I still have my old Winchester. Guess I am trying to reason another gun purchase . I have taken squirrel at pretty good distances with that gun. I took my first deer with a slug from that gun. By pure luck I may add.

I have a Glock 19 and a 16'' AR15 for home defense already. But I think I definetly MUST HAVE a shotgun as well you know...for penetration reasons
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:27:40 PM EDT

I am going to "Defender-ize" it eventually. The 12gauge mag tube extensions fit the 20gauge Winchesters and these guns will take the +3 tubes. The ATI mag tube extension was a disaster, so I'll try the Choate next. I'll probably get a Speedfeed IV Tactical Stock www.speedfeedinc.com/?location=products


2guntomwww.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif


I'don't know anything about 12gauge mags being the same as 20s, but I've used Tac Stars on 2 builds now, a winchester and a remington. They work for me. I think ATIs are plastic, that's what my catalog said, so I ordered Tac Star.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 7:02:39 AM EDT
You are correct; the ATI mag tube extension is plastic. That is a problem. When you put a clamp on it, it compresses the extension and causes all kind of trouble.

I've got one made by Tac Star on my Remington 870. It is a +2. The darned thing needs to be 1/2" - 3/4" longer. I can't always get the last shell in.

I thought the Choate tubes were expensive at first. I didn't realize that they came as a kit. In the kit you get a clamp and a bright colored follower. When that is factored in the price ain't bad. Another reason I'm trying Choate is that not everybody makes a +3 for the Winchesters.

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:53:53 PM EDT
put some number one buck in it and it will take down anything that you may find roaming around in your home that doesn't belong there
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:58:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:05:42 PM EDT
You can make anything you want with reloading tools but you would definatly lose some shot in the shell
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 9:15:41 PM EDT
The first firearm my father ever bought me, a Winchester model 1200 Youth 20ga, is sitting right next to my nightstand with 3in #4 buck in it. I recived it for a christmas presant when I was 7 yrs old. I didnt get many years use out of it as I quickly upgraded to a 12ga for hunting. However, in the last 10 years, I have all but given up hunting and the 1200 has found a new duty as a home defense arm. It still has the stubby ass "youth" stock on it. Every once and a while Ill take it when I go shooting, Its so much nicer to ring off rounds than my 1300 is. Burning a full tube of 3in mags in a 1300 is no joke.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:10:11 AM EDT
Why don't you put a longer stock on that 20gauge? Or do you like the shorter LOP? Where'd ya' get #4 buck in 20gauge?

2guntom
2guntom.com
454 Casull
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:04:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 11:27:21 AM EDT by SBCZILLA]

Originally Posted By 2guntom:
Why don't you put a longer stock on that 20gauge? Or do you like the shorter LOP? Where'd ya' get #4 buck in 20gauge?

2guntomwww.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
2guntom.com
454 Casull





Never needed to put a longer stock as there were already 3 12ga in the family safe. Also, I made a mistake about it being a 1200, its a model 120, as Im sure all of you know. The #4 buck is quite old, I inherited a pile of shells when my grandfather passed, they are the old purple Winchesters,the ones made right after they went to plastic hulls, back when buckshot still came in a box of 25. I ended up getting about a case of them, every once and a while I take a handfull of them out and they still perform without flaw.

Just out of curosity, I laid the 120 down beside my 1300 Defender, and its overall length is only about 3in longer than the 1300.

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