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Posted: 6/14/2006 6:57:17 PM EDT
Between a 12 gauge ca 18" and a 308 carbine, using any available ammo type for either weapon, which one makes the most potentially catastrophic wound in a human type target?  

Thinks CQB.  

Buck shot, 165 grain A-Max, 12 gauge saboted hydroshock slugs, other 308 high frag round...

Which weapon/ammo combination do you beleive will drop a man most quickly w/ all other things being equal?
Link Posted: 6/14/2006 7:54:53 PM EDT
[#1]
12ga. But I'm not a ballistics expert
Link Posted: 6/14/2006 9:10:15 PM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
...makes the most potentially catastrophic wound in a human type target?  
...CQB.  
Which weapon/ammo combination do you beleive will drop a man most quickly w/ all other things being equal?



A shotgun, used accurately at knife-fighting distances, ends the fight. period.

HKO
Link Posted: 6/14/2006 9:13:22 PM EDT
[#3]
I think 12 gauge by far... by far.
Link Posted: 6/14/2006 9:30:33 PM EDT
[#4]
probably depends on the distance
Link Posted: 6/14/2006 9:40:12 PM EDT
[#5]
In CQB definitely the shotgun. The .308 will pretty much zip right through something more at close CQB range compared to the larger round of a shotgun slug or dispersion of buckshot. If you get out to a distance where the accuracy and velocity of the shotgun round whether slug or Buckshot with spread being too far off or too slowed than the .308 would win.
I wouldn't want to be hit by either though.
Link Posted: 6/14/2006 9:55:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Are we talking one shot from each gun, or the total damage that can be inflicted with a 12g vs a .308?

In other words, are we comparing 21 shots with a .308 to 8 shots with a 12 g?  Or are we talking just a single shot from each?
Link Posted: 6/14/2006 9:56:32 PM EDT
[#7]
SHOTGUN FTW!
Link Posted: 6/14/2006 9:58:23 PM EDT
[#8]
From my brother, who's an EMT, has informed me that the more holes you can poke in someone the harder it is to patch up said holes.  Which, #1 buckshot or even #4 buckshot does a very very very good job of out to about 75 feet.  I'll take a rifle beyond that 75 to 100 foot range, but inside of that an 18" barrel shotty with buckshot is my choice.

Link Posted: 6/15/2006 2:27:57 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
Are we talking one shot from each gun, or the total damage that can be inflicted with a 12g vs a .308?

In other words, are we comparing 21 shots with a .308 to 8 shots with a 12 g?  Or are we talking just a single shot from each?



I guess we are comparing them shot for shot at extreme close quarters.  So One round of 308 vrs one round of 12 gauge.

If you are all familiar with the whole thing about rifle projectiles of certain types of construction that are moving at supersonic velocities and fragmenting in tissue and causing the cavity type wound instead of the mere channel type wound.  

This is what makes 5.56 m193 so efffective at wounding even though it is a varmit round.  For example, this round can make a gopher or a crow basically explode.  Similarly, when it hits a man, it can make about a crow's worth of mass of his body explode, hence the wound cavity rather than just the wound channel.  But this effect is a combination of the velocity and the fragmentation of the projectile.  308 projectiles travel equally fast and with the right bullet construction, for example a Hornady A-Max, they could make an animal larger than a crow explode, like maybe a neutra rat.  Furthermore, they can make a correspondingly larger portion of a man explode.  You can see the ammo oracle for data on this just so you know I am not pulling it out of my ass.

The channel wound mechanism is for heavier and slower projectiles such as 45 acp, a heavy bonded rifle bullet, or a 1 oz slug.  If the animal you are shooting is big enough like a cape buffalow, a 165 grain A Max is not the best choice b/c even though it has the explosive cavity woundig potential, the size of that wound is going to be relatively too small, the animal is too thick skinned and tough, and the wound won't be deep enough to hit its vitals.  But men are not so big and tough and a 308 A Max has sufficient penetration and mass to work as a "cavity wounder"

A load of shot, in a tight enoug pattern, makes another type of cavity wound.  It creates 9-12 individual wounds that when striking media in a close enough pattern make a cumlative wound that might be said to be greater than the sum of its parts.  

Anyway, the question, is: If you are gettting charged by a meth head and you shoot him in the gut, would a certian 308 cartridge or a certain 12 gauge cartridge cause the more catastrophic wound?
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 11:01:17 AM EDT
[#10]
155gr A-MAX. Most deadly thing you can fire off your shoulder without going to a .50 BMG.
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 2:57:40 PM EDT
[#11]
12GA
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 3:03:28 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
155gr A-MAX. Most deadly thing you can fire off your shoulder without going to a .50 BMG.



yep, strange how the 155gr beats out the heavier bullets in gel tests.
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 3:13:12 PM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
Anyway, the question, is: If you are gettting charged by a meth head and you shoot him in the gut, would a certian 308 cartridge or a certain 12 gauge cartridge cause the more catastrophic wound?



Oh, then its the Mossberg 590 A1 with 00 buck and the bayonet attached.
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 3:14:28 PM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Anyway, the question, is: If you are gettting charged by a meth head and you shoot him in the gut, would a certian 308 cartridge or a certain 12 gauge cartridge cause the more catastrophic wound?



Oh, then its the Mossberg 590 A1 with 00 buck and the bayonet attached.



#4 buck > 00 buck

much wider swath of tissue destruction while still providing sufficient penetration.
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 3:15:56 PM EDT
[#15]
Only days ago one of my cohorts shot a guy in the face at 6 feet with a 12 slug.


Not pretty.
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 3:20:56 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:
From my brother, who's an EMT, has informed me that the more holes you can poke in someone the harder it is to patch up said holes.  Which, #1 buckshot or even #4 buckshot does a very very very good job of out to about 75 feet.  I'll take a rifle beyond that 75 to 100 foot range, but inside of that an 18" barrel shotty with buckshot is my choice.




Link Posted: 6/15/2006 3:32:45 PM EDT
[#17]
CQB?

Winchester 00 buck for me.
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 4:40:03 PM EDT
[#18]
I read a report a while ago (it was on the internet, so maybe take it with a grain of salt) of a coroner who described an upper thoratic hit with a 155gr TAP .308 round as "virtually unsurvivable". Its the load I keep in my FAL, first mag anyway. Frags like 5.56mm, and penetrates 14" or so.
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 8:16:29 PM EDT
[#19]
I would not like to be hit by anything at CQB/contact ranges, let alone from any long arm.
5.56, .308, 12 GA., 20 GA,..... NO THANK YOU.

That said.....

All of those would cause catastrophic wounds at close range.

But when you figure in mass, velocity, size, number of projectiles, etc.....
a shotgun, at close range, can REMOVE body parts (arm, leg, head...)
...or you just might be able to read a newspaper.... through the wound channel.  

HKO


Link Posted: 6/15/2006 10:53:56 PM EDT
[#20]
My experience with very close-range shotgun shots is that they (a 20ga with #4 in my case) make a barrel caliber sized through-and-through hole.

All things considered, I think I'd be okay with either- though I'd feel better if the shotgun were a reliable semi.

If my rifle had to be .308, and I got to choose the rifle, I think I'd pick a short-barreled FAL loaded with 155gr AMAX.
Link Posted: 6/15/2006 11:37:04 PM EDT
[#21]
12ga (w/ slug or buck)

there is a pic of projected ballistics testing and 00buck on the torso made it hambuger
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 2:27:50 AM EDT
[#22]
an ounce of powder... that'll kick.

I was speaking with a police officer friend of mine who has been invloved in some situations where the shotgun needed to come out.   I don't know what kind it is other than a pump.  He said he has ended more disputes when the perp heard the sound of the pump action, than from actually firing it.  

It's a scary sound.  But even if your attacker doesn't stop from that, 00 buck will stop him at cqb.

Also with a shotgun you don't need to be as precise.  At 3  in the morning if someone is invading your home, adreneline or not, you're not going to be your best shot.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 3:26:11 AM EDT
[#23]
at 40 yards, a 12 gauge slug will not go through the top lid of a washing machine.soft material not a prob. for the 12 gauge. i will take .308 any day
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 3:51:43 AM EDT
[#24]
My ER doc friend says shotgun wounds are the worst things he sees, and that he makes them even worse when he fishes out all the pellets.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 4:10:20 AM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:
an ounce of powder... that'll kick.

I was speaking with a police officer friend of mine who has been invloved in some situations where the shotgun needed to come out.   I don't know what kind it is other than a pump.  He said he has ended more disputes when the perp heard the sound of the pump action, than from actually firing it.  

It's a scary sound.  But even if your attacker doesn't stop from that, 00 buck will stop him at cqb.

Also with a shotgun you don't need to be as precise.  At 3  in the morning if someone is invading your home, adreneline or not, you're not going to be your best shot.



That's utter nonsense. Your friend's real world experience has no validity, and the keyboard commandos will be along soon to tell you so.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 4:14:15 AM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
155gr A-MAX. Most deadly thing you can fire off your shoulder without going to a .50 BMG.



yep, strange how the 155gr beats out the heavier bullets in gel tests.




+1 it's what's in the FAL thats next to me
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 5:58:11 AM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:

Also with a shotgun you don't need to be as precise.  



At the ranges we're talking about in most people's homes, you absolutely need to be precise with one.  The shot patterns don't open up nearly as rapidly as you might think.  
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 7:09:02 AM EDT
[#28]
It is simply amazing the vast amount of BS that threads such as this will bring out.

People with "opinions" that don't have a clue.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 7:13:41 AM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:
It is simply amazing the vast amount of BS that threads such as this will bring out.

People with "opinions" that don't have a clue.



Why don't you like your box o truth thread about the shotgun to this thread? I can't remember if you did a test on a "155gr A Max" 7.62 round or not, but it would be interesting to see your results.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 7:25:55 AM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It is simply amazing the vast amount of BS that threads such as this will bring out.

People with "opinions" that don't have a clue.



Why don't you like your box o truth thread about the shotgun to this thread? I can't remember if you did a test on a "155gr A Max" 7.62 round or not, but it would be interesting to see your results.



That would be great.  I made this thread b/c I wanted comments based on real data, either from LEO/MIL or from guys who have done/seen tests/demonstrations.

Please post link.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 7:30:03 AM EDT
[#31]
Painless, I think I found your website.  Interesting...
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 7:51:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Bird shot out of a .410 coach gun is just as lethal as a .50 cal!
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 8:02:01 AM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:
Painless, I think I found your website.  Interesting...



Here it is:

www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

Sorry for the delay, I was running errands.

Threads such as this often get responses such as, "I think A is better than B.  But I don't actually have a gun and have never shot anything."

I never cease to be amazed at how some folks will offer "opinions" when it is obvious that they do not know what they are talking about.

And I don't really mean that as a "slam" against anyone.  But if you don't actually know something from experience or from reading articles written by folks that have the experience, then just read the thread and don't offer "opinions".

There.  Rant off.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 8:04:17 AM EDT
[#34]

Quoted:
Bird shot out of a .410 coach gun is just as lethal as a .50 cal!



While I appreciate markm's humor, I sometimes don't believe that he appreciates that some folks wil read stuff he posts like this and actually believe it.

Mark, you ought to always include a smiley when you are kidding.

Some folks will still believe it, but it will at least cut down on the percentage.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 8:09:25 AM EDT
[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Painless, I think I found your website.  Interesting...



Here it is:

www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

Sorry for the delay, I was running errands.

Threads such as this often get responses such as, "I think A is better than B.  But I don't actually have a gun and have never shot anything."

I never cease to be amazed at how some folks will offer "opinions" when it is obvious that they do not know what they are talking about.

And I don't really mean that as a "slam" against anyone.  But if you don't actually know something from experience or from reading articles written by folks that have the experience, then just read the thread and don't offer "opinions".

There.  Rant off.



+1 to that OP

The first skill of critical thinking is making a distinction between fact or hard data and speculation.  After that probably comes logic.  Not something that was ever emphasized to my generation.  We were too busy being told not do to drugs, how to put condoms on bannas, and to feel good about ourselves no matter what even if we were complete loosers.  

Does anyone have any links to any gelatin tests w/ A-Max 308s?  
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 8:33:42 AM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:
My ER doc friend says shotgun wounds are the worst things he sees, and that he makes them even worse when he fishes out all the pellets.



Does he see many people shot in COM with a rifle?
No - they just go straight to the morgue.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 8:44:09 AM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My ER doc friend says shotgun wounds are the worst things he sees, and that he makes them even worse when he fishes out all the pellets.



Does he see many people shot in COM with a rifle?
No - they just go straight to the morgue.



And here we see the problem with "first hand accounts".

I believe Rodent has correctly reported what his friend has told him.  I believe that his friend is telling the truth, as regards the wounds he operates on.

But the question is:  Are the wounds he sees really representative of what happens in all firefights?

As thedoctors308 points out, maybe the reason doctors don't see a lot of 7.62 X 51 wounds is because people shot with them bypass the emergency room and go straight to the morgue.

As a policeman, I saw several people killed with .22 pistols.  They were all very dead.

Should I therefore say. "I saw a lot of people killed with the .22.  The .22 is the most deadly round out there."

Actually, the reason I saw so many killed with the .22 was because the people in that part of town tended to arm themselves with .22's, back in those days.  Therefore, my personal experience was slanted by circumstances and any conclusions I draw from my sample will be false.

That is why statements of, "My buddy is an EMT and he says....", are usually not valid when trying to draw conclusions about the lethality of a particular weapon.

Expensive and exhaustive studies have been done, considering thousands of gun shot victims.  The results have been published and many of them are available on the Ammo Forum and the Ammo Oracle.  Read and learn.

Only your life may depend on that knowledge.

Link Posted: 6/16/2006 9:06:56 AM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bird shot out of a .410 coach gun is just as lethal as a .50 cal!



While I appreciate markm's humor, I sometimes don't believe that he appreciates that some folks wil read stuff he posts like this and actually believe it.



If they can't sense the humor and sarcasm in a post like that, they're too stupid to own guns.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 9:23:23 AM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bird shot out of a .410 coach gun is just as lethal as a .50 cal!



While I appreciate markm's humor, I sometimes don't believe that he appreciates that some folks wil read stuff he posts like this and actually believe it.

Mark, you ought to always include a smiley when you are kidding.

Some folks will still believe it, but it will at least cut down on the percentage.



It keeps the Dumb Dumb's LESS LETHAL!!
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 9:25:43 AM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:
They were all very dead.



I thought .22s were only rated for "a little bit dead"
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 11:22:41 AM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They were all very dead.



I thought .22s were only rated for "a little bit dead"



They were as dead as chastity.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 3:02:46 PM EDT
[#42]
I have never shot anyone and I hope I never have to.

With that said, the most horrible wound picture of a human being that I have ever seen on the internet was inflicted by a 12 gauge shotgun. Some of you may have seen it... it's the one where the guy was shot in the leg at close range with a shotgun and there's no "meat" left on the leg. Just a bone or two. And the "hole," if you can call it that, is large enough so that you can easily stick a couple soda-cans in there.

At close range, the shot-spread from a 12 gauge is so tight that you can literally sever limbs with buckshot.

If you shoot a limb with a bullet (.308, 7.62x39, 9mm, etc.) it'll pretty much make a clean hole through the limb. It may be nasty with all of the shredded muscle, veins, and shattered bones... but the limb will still be there (even though it may have to be amputated if it's really really bad).

I've seen pictures of people leaking out their brains after being shot by 5.56 and other really nasty things... but that 12 gauge wound was the most horrifying. I imagine that if someone sticks a 12 gauge in his mouth, there wouldn't be anything left of the head.
Link Posted: 6/16/2006 3:22:31 PM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:
I have never shot anyone and I hope I never have to.

With that said, the most horrible wound picture of a human being that I have ever seen on the internet was inflicted by a 12 gauge shotgun. Some of you may have seen it... it's the one where the guy was shot in the leg at close range with a shotgun and there's no "meat" left on the leg. Just a bone or two. And the "hole," if you can call it that, is large enough so that you can easily stick a couple soda-cans in there.

At close range, the shot-spread from a 12 gauge is so tight that you can literally sever limbs with buckshot.

If you shoot a limb with a bullet (.308, 7.62x39, 9mm, etc.) it'll pretty much make a clean hole through the limb. It may be nasty with all of the shredded muscle, veins, and shattered bones... but the limb will still be there (even though it may have to be amputated if it's really really bad).

I've seen pictures of people leaking out their brains after being shot by 5.56 and other really nasty things... but that 12 gauge wound was the most horrifying. I imagine that if someone sticks a 12 gauge in his mouth, there wouldn't be anything left of the head.



You know, there's like 6 different stories regarding that wound.  Others include that it was AK-inflicted on a solder in Iraq, and that it was a motorcycle accident.

The moral of the story is: don't believe anything you read online.
Link Posted: 6/17/2006 10:44:17 PM EDT
[#44]
I can't belive this hasen't been posted yet.

go the ar15.com way and get both . savage (I think) makes a drilling in 12 ga and .308 or .30-06 .
get one and pull both trigers at once. or one then the other.

personaly I don't see much of a differance between the 2 on a center mass hit. the deer ( which is as close to a post mort on a human I can get ) that I've cleaned that have been hit with either are pretty messed up. the .30 round that hits only ribs makes a big hole when it leaves , like fist sezed. the buck make lots of little holes but messes up the insides pretty bad.

on another note . a friend of mine likes to use .30-06 acc. with a 40grn bullet. they only go about 2-3" deep. he tries to take a neck shot if he can . they don't even break the shoulder on a direct hit. I've told him to use the .30 cal bullets but he believes every thing he hears. and fast bullets kill better than slow ones 4k fps vs 2.8k fps
Link Posted: 6/18/2006 12:08:39 PM EDT
[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have never shot anyone and I hope I never have to.

With that said, the most horrible wound picture of a human being that I have ever seen on the internet was inflicted by a 12 gauge shotgun. Some of you may have seen it... it's the one where the guy was shot in the leg at close range with a shotgun and there's no "meat" left on the leg. Just a bone or two. And the "hole," if you can call it that, is large enough so that you can easily stick a couple soda-cans in there.

At close range, the shot-spread from a 12 gauge is so tight that you can literally sever limbs with buckshot.

If you shoot a limb with a bullet (.308, 7.62x39, 9mm, etc.) it'll pretty much make a clean hole through the limb. It may be nasty with all of the shredded muscle, veins, and shattered bones... but the limb will still be there (even though it may have to be amputated if it's really really bad).

I've seen pictures of people leaking out their brains after being shot by 5.56 and other really nasty things... but that 12 gauge wound was the most horrifying. I imagine that if someone sticks a 12 gauge in his mouth, there wouldn't be anything left of the head.



You know, there's like 6 different stories regarding that wound.  Others include that it was AK-inflicted on a solder in Iraq, and that it was a motorcycle accident.

The moral of the story is: don't believe anything you read online.



The one where the guys missing the whole front of his face? I've heard it was a motorcycle accident and also heard the guy bit down on a blasting cap.
Link Posted: 6/18/2006 3:26:26 PM EDT
[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have never shot anyone and I hope I never have to.

With that said, the most horrible wound picture of a human being that I have ever seen on the internet was inflicted by a 12 gauge shotgun. Some of you may have seen it... it's the one where the guy was shot in the leg at close range with a shotgun and there's no "meat" left on the leg. Just a bone or two. And the "hole," if you can call it that, is large enough so that you can easily stick a couple soda-cans in there.

At close range, the shot-spread from a 12 gauge is so tight that you can literally sever limbs with buckshot.

If you shoot a limb with a bullet (.308, 7.62x39, 9mm, etc.) it'll pretty much make a clean hole through the limb. It may be nasty with all of the shredded muscle, veins, and shattered bones... but the limb will still be there (even though it may have to be amputated if it's really really bad).

I've seen pictures of people leaking out their brains after being shot by 5.56 and other really nasty things... but that 12 gauge wound was the most horrifying. I imagine that if someone sticks a 12 gauge in his mouth, there wouldn't be anything left of the head.



You know, there's like 6 different stories regarding that wound.  Others include that it was AK-inflicted on a solder in Iraq, and that it was a motorcycle accident.

The moral of the story is: don't believe anything you read online.



The one where the guys missing the whole front of his face? I've heard it was a motorcycle accident and also heard the guy bit down on a blasting cap.



This picture is one of someone missing most of his ankle / foot, but just like the "blasting cap marine" picture there are a lot of stories surrounding it.  I'd like to know what the real story was behind both those photos.
Link Posted: 6/18/2006 3:32:56 PM EDT
[#47]
Here is my contribution to the thread:

Some Thoughts on the Combat Shotgun
Copyright © 1997 John Schaefer

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000153#000000

12 Gauge Penetration Tests
10% Gelatin
Load Number of Pellets Penetration
@ 7 yards
000 Buck 8 14" - 16"
00 Buck 9 13" - 15" (muzzle velocity = 1290fps)
1 Buck 16 12" - 14"
#4 Buck 27 9" - 11"
#6 Shot (Hard shot) 280 9" - 10" (@5 yd)
1 oz Foster Slug - 18"
450 gr SABOT Slug - 21"


155 AMAX. Notice the neck length - 0":
www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000433#000002

Link Posted: 6/18/2006 5:12:45 PM EDT
[#48]
If you go to this site, there are alot of pictures of ballistic gel shots showing shotgun wound patterns with many different loads.
You can compare them to the A-max gel shot and determine for yourself.

www.tacticalworks.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html
Link Posted: 6/18/2006 5:48:31 PM EDT
[#49]
I'd have to say the shotty probably does a bigger number on someone in a CQB environment.  

I saw a guy get hit in the chest (once) with what looked like a 12 guage at somewhere less than 6'.  The dude looked like he completely bled out (it looked like he dropped a gallon) and died before he even hit the ground.  

I also saw a training vid once where some guy tried to end it all by touching off his 12 guage under his chin, unfortunately he survived.  There was nothing left at all of his face or lower jaw, really all he had was a screaming pile of shattered bone and shredded meat on his shoulders.  It's really hard to gross me out on that kind of thing but I don't think I'll ever forget that one.

Head wounds with either a .308 or a 12 guage are pretty spectacular, but for body shots I think the shotty is a more efficient killer at close ranges.

Fearless
Link Posted: 6/18/2006 6:00:57 PM EDT
[#50]

Quoted:
probably depends on the distance



i agree 100%
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