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Link Posted: 5/11/2023 7:23:41 AM EDT
[#1]
Yeah I got an email the other day myself.  He's just a one-man operation here, and BTDT.  I'm gonna wait it out.
VP
Link Posted: 5/11/2023 8:47:43 AM EDT
[#2]
I'm glad there's been some movement and his stories are consistent!  I'll give it until the end of may, early june.  It sounds like he'll have inventory to build from at that point.

Fingers crossed we get our units in hand shortly!
Link Posted: 5/11/2023 4:42:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Diz:
Yeah I got an email the other day myself.  He's just a one-man operation here, and BTDT.  I'm gonna wait it out.
View Quote

When you receive yours can you post beam comparisons and compare the build quality?
Link Posted: 5/12/2023 4:15:50 PM EDT
[#4]
It has arrived! And it's bright as fuck on visible. I'll play with the IR settings tonight but it's supposed to pour for like 3 days straight.

Next to his peq






Link Posted: 5/12/2023 5:42:40 PM EDT
[#5]
Wow that thing is sexy.

For sure when I get both IS and SG I will post up.
Link Posted: 5/12/2023 6:49:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Diz:
Wow that thing is sexy.

For sure when I get both IS and SG I will post up.
View Quote

The finish isn't the best/most even but it feels super solid. I definitely like it so far. Well see how it performs later
Link Posted: 5/12/2023 7:36:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AKoch31:
It has arrived! And it's bright as fuck on visible. I'll play with the IR settings tonight but it's supposed to pour for like 3 days straight.

Next to his peq
https://i.imgur.com/6sd8cFg.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/XlLyFWm.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/gMcUxz7.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/gGVlyPH.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/AAtJJTS.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/oIlGVqb.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/2dITjxL.jpeg
View Quote


wow looks amazing, i cant wait for mine either. Let us know how it holds up!
Link Posted: 5/12/2023 9:04:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Hot damn that is good looking. Might be placing an order myself to see it next year 😉
Link Posted: 5/13/2023 6:28:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Yeah, finish is a secondary consideration for me, as I will be Dura Coating it.

If you want one, sign up now and be prepared for a long wait.  

Man the form factor is amazing, and almost half the foot print of the PEQ-15.

And the SG should be rolling out in a few weeks, I hope.
Link Posted: 5/13/2023 10:49:08 PM EDT
[#10]
As soon as he enables taking orders again i'll put one in, guessing he is labeling them out of stock until he can get a handle on the boards and back log
Link Posted: 5/14/2023 7:16:23 AM EDT
[#11]
He has a track record of making numerous small tweaks, right before he rolls out, and this typically delays things a few weeks.  And once they get out in the wild, there will be little things that crop up and then need to get fixed.  So based off the PEQ-15 track record, they will steadily improve.  Depends on where you want to jump in.  I'm hoping the PEQ's provided so many lessons learned that the development time of the NGAL will be shortened.
Link Posted: 5/14/2023 8:32:30 PM EDT
[#12]
That NGAL sure is sexy. I ordered a PEQ15 LA5 from him in March, told me he would be shipping it out sometime last week but the week has already passed and still nothing. I know he's running a one man show but I'm starting to get antsy
Link Posted: 5/16/2023 2:06:11 PM EDT
[#13]
I've been trying to track down my unit and when it'll go into production. Below is his email concerning the ngal with new pcb board that solves the parasitic leeching of certain battery types. Really looking forward to seeing more of these getting into our hands shortly!

"Hi,

The new board will be here next week.
I'll start the build straight away.

Thanks
jx"

Link Posted: 6/15/2023 8:45:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ShoulderThingGoesUp] [#14]
In B4 the mods and their sponsors lock this thread too.  Until we can buy legal, non grey market LAMs the ban of discussing (not even selling lol) clones is pure corporate cuckoldry.  Until the site sponsors pushing this want to start manning up on the FDA and selling us real equipment… this is pure bootlicking bullshit.  These aren’t clone g24s where I could buy the real thing….  they are basically banned items that are only obtainable without significant financial and legal risk by buying overseas clones.

Almost no one here can even buy these items new.   The only market being “hurt” is the second hand grey market of stolen peqs and only extremely tangentially.  This is basically tacit support of banning civilians owning and purchasing fp IR gear and arfcom should be embarrassed.
Link Posted: 6/15/2023 10:17:16 PM EDT
[#15]
This...
Link Posted: 6/15/2023 11:14:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ShoulderThingGoesUp:
In B4 the mods and their sponsors lock this thread too.  Until we can buy legal, non grey market LAMs the ban of discussing (not even selling lol) clones is pure corporate cuckoldry.  Until the site sponsors pushing this want to start manning up on the FDA and selling us real equipment… this is pure bootlicking bullshit.  These aren’t clone g24s where I could buy the real thing….  they are basically banned items that are only obtainable without significant financial and legal risk by buying overseas clones.

Almost no one here can even buy these items new.   The only market being “hurt” is the second hand grey market of stolen peqs and only extremely tangentially.  This is basically tacit support of banning civilians owning and purchasing fp IR gear and arfcom should be embarrassed.
View Quote


Fucking this. The civilian NV community is continually bent over by INSANELY over priced products. These companies don't give a fuck about us. The community pushes back, and the corporate over lords lock it down. How many LAMs does it cost to get a mod to lock a thread, I wonder?
Link Posted: 6/15/2023 11:41:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Wow, had no idea how cucked and censored Arfcom was before today. Really changes my opinion on TNVC, who I'm guessing are the guys pushing for this censorship.

Wonder how long before this comment gets memory holed?
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 3:27:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TigerHawk] [#18]
Haven’t been posting in the other thread much but routinely follow along. Saw the lock..

This fucking place. Squashing discussion to appease sponsors.  How sad.

I feel more motivated to buy a China peq now
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 5:49:26 AM EDT
[#19]
well see you guys after the lock lol.
wild.
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 7:06:36 AM EDT
[#20]
My guess is the thought process that says "No one will buy a (insert LAM here, but probs a MAWL) if these are discussed".  That's the old MPAA DVD/Blu-ray ripping fallacy - that every ripped DVD is a movie/disc sale lost...that's been proven wrong. a $300 gamble vs $3000 MilSpec ain't the same customer. Since "IP" was the excuse, why not leave the IP free(?) PEQ discussion allowed, but no NGAL? Looks like the Somo IG comments section is about to get way busier (is there a Reddit thread?)
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 7:16:29 AM EDT
[#21]
Well it was a wild ride guys.  I understand both sides of this argument, I really do.  When you have a vested interest in selling one product, and someone else talks about another one; yeah that would tend to piss me off.  However.  In this case you have so many other factors, that at some point, it becomes hard to empathize with the parties involved.

First and foremost, you have a federal bureaucracy totally out of control.  This would take several pages so I'll leave it at that.

Then you have a vendor that tried to get SOMETHING into civilian hands.  So we bought them for awhile.  But being ungrateful rabble, we insisted on better.  Especially after the price increases.  

Then you have a website, that is world-famous.  And successful.  They charge vendors big bucks to showcase their shit here.  Where they also make a lot of money.  And just to be clear, I am a confirmed capitalist, so all you commies, sit the fuck down, we're not going there.

And finally you have a foreign company, who identify an under-serviced, let's say, market, and attempt to fill it.  And then we get into the IP theft and so forth.  

And yes, that would appear to be the final trump card, would it not?  All other issues aside, the site policy is: no support of IP theft.  Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, all you ungrateful rabble.

After careful consideration of all sides, I have come to the conclusion that I no longer support any initiative to limit me to certain products, for whatever reason, be it legal, ethical, or god forbid, patriotic.  I think we are way past that point, into uncharted waters as it were, and quite frankly, I (or we, although I claim to speak for no one else) am on my own and will do what I need to do.  Even if that means buying foreign made stuff that is IP theft.

Yes, yes Diz, by all means do want you want; you just can't talk about that here.  Ok, that is a decision you guys have made.  Let the chips fall where they may.
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 7:25:06 AM EDT
[#22]
I'm now going to buy some Chinese NGALs and another Argus g24 clone (which unfortunately for wilcox is a better mount than an actual g24 - I own both)
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 1:14:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Well, looks like the party was shut down for the poors and peasants.
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 1:35:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC_Augee] [#24]
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 4:49:18 PM EDT
[#25]
I can’t really comment on the above points, and I don’t know enough to comment on them and don’t want to discredit TtNVC’s work for the average US civilian, but as for the pot shots..

How many threads in the last little bit have there been potshots from members of TNVC in threads regarding “authentic” gear?

I can think of three for sure in the last two months or so - a jerry-c coti thread, in the somogear thread, and another in the cadex mount thread.

Perhaps these sentiments exists because from the outside, it’s tough to distinguish personal opinions from toeing the company line?

I don’t want to diminish or subtract the valuable advice you guys share daily for free in threads and on an absolute mastery level, but the lines have looked a little blurry lately, especially for those of us who read the threads in this forum a fair bit.
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 5:06:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC_Augee] [#26]
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 5:17:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC] [#27]
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 5:18:44 PM EDT
[#28]
With all due respect to Augee, he should go back and re-read some threads where TNVC has intervened and talked about IP theft and so forth, as our northern neighbor has pointed out.  If TNVC is a high-end vendor, and doesn't care what other companies are selling, especially in the "budget" market, let's say, then why have they commented multiple times in threads where we are discussing these items?  In fact, they have requested I remove a new post about these products because of IP theft concerns, in violation of site rules, and TNVC didn't want the hit of shutting them down, or whatever.  So I have voluntarily retracted a post, at the request of TNVC.  To say that TNVC is in no way interested in these things, and blame the site for unilaterally removing or locking threads is mis-informed at best, and disingenuous at worst.  

I would like to think Augee is somewhat out of the loop here, as he has mentioned, and doesn't realize what's been going on.  From his perspective, TNVC doesn't give a good god-dam about budget products that some guys are finding useful.  But someone there does.  And I'm glad that someone else has noticed it.  Since I have been ass-deep in these discussions, I could be accused of trying to spin the narrative.  But that's an unsolicited observation that I believe happens to be spot on.  Thanks mate.
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 6:59:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: na1lb0hm] [#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:


Sorry, gonna have to disagree here...ESPECIALLY the CADEX thread!! I was the 2nd to post from the OP.  I know the owners aof CADEX and was using their gear long before anyone else even knew about them here when they designed a few pieces of kit for TNVC. You may need to reread what I said.

OUT
View Quote


@TNVC

I found your post neat to see that the mounts have been around that long, and that they are so well regarded; however,
I was referring to the post by TNVC_Will, specifically the second line:

“And glad to see a post regarding genuine products g÷ @“

Edited for clarification.
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 7:21:26 PM EDT
[#30]
I want to add one more point to this.

I come here specifically for the discussions and wide range of knowledge about NVG stuff. Especially because of the personal experiences and information provided by TNVC. I’d rather not frequent Reddit.

As a canuck, myself, friends and fellow enjoyers of the hobby of NVG’s don’t always have a lot of options for gear, and when we do it’s often at a $$ premium + extra for good measure.

Threads like the SG thread can help make informed decisions about where $$ goe;, if my $$$ goes somewhere, but frankly up here it’s either that or holosun which we knows directly goes to the pocket of the PLA. I don’t own either and wish to keep it that way. Threads like the SG reinforce that for me.

I understand (all to well) that ip theft of your hard work is frustrating, maddening and complete bs and it bleeds out into comments - but they are public comments and don’t have more than a degree of separation between the ones making them and the ones selling the products.
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 7:35:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC_Augee] [#31]
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 8:14:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: kel] [#32]
IP theft is a hard one – I've been through it, suffered a ton of financial loss. Diz knows me from back in the day when I was selling suppressors and a competitor literally copied stuff down to the typos in our catalog. I was at Heckler & Koch's offices once and they did a little "why should we carry yours vs. Brand X that look identical but are cheaper?" At the end of the day, they shrugged and said any patent or IP issues should be handled by the courts, and it wasn't their place to determine who had the ethical high ground, or was the original inventor, or even if the patents were valid and what they even applied to. Cop out? Maybe.

Botach started selling a 100% clone of one of my products. I met with them to discuss. Their stance was "We don't have any way to know who has the rights to make it. We aren't going to incur expenses to do detective work and find out who is right here. YOU sue the copycat. In the meantime, sell it to us at the same price, and we'll stop carrying the other guy's." Cop out? Maybe.

Years later, after writing and paying for my personal patent applications, I more understand that side of things. If I get ripped off, it's up to ME to defend, and up to the legal system to determine if I'm right or the copycat is okay. It's not some guys on the web to make the call who's ripping who off.

Unlicensed cloners literally putting Wilcox's name on a G24-ish mount is obviously *wrong*.
But Argus making a near-identical mount but not ripping off trademarks and trade dress... sure, that obviously is what it is, but is it legally WRONG? That's not up to a store or internet guy to determine. Same with a toy NGAL or whatever. Just because the externals look the same and it's obviously a knockoff doesn't mean it violated a patent. (Unless there's a design "look" patent.) That's up to the courts to determine if the guts are the same, or whatever is claimed in a patent is violated or not. If someone loses in court, and a judgement is handed out, but China still keeps on, THEN it would be totally understandable if that product isn't fair game to link to or promote on this site.

It is a darn shame that the correct party just can't snap fingers and have justice. But there's a lot of weak patents that get challenged and shot down too. It's super unfortunate that things like this cost money to defend, but that's the point of a patent. If it's legit, you get to spend more money to defend it, and if you win, people still take pokes at it. And if it's foreign, you just ain't gonna win, financially. If I had my patent applications to do over, I probably wouldn't have spent tens of thousands of dollars on them, I just would have made my nut, sold stuff at maximum - but sustainable - profits until the market caught up, and then when R&D costs were recouped, relied on being the brand people trust at any cost, rather than relying on suing people in attempts to stay out of my lane.

I've got sympathy for the consumers as well as the real designers, not much sympathy for the knockoff vendors, but understand the situation that nature will find a way. At the end of the day, I'm not sure I "owe" anyone anything, but I appreciate Wilcox and have used their real stuff for years. At the end of the day, I respect that TNVC has done a lot of education and helped consumers gain a lot of ground in the NV space that really, otherwise wouldn't have happened. Kudos. At the end of the day, I try to support US companies in general vs. Chinese. I mostly use a DBAL (a "real" but old Laser Devices pre-Steiner they made custom for me), but might grab a Somo NGAL for my .22lr night varmint AR for the sole reason they're cheap and probably good enough for a .22. I'd like to read people's experience with them and hear about other options to include EO's and other US ones – find out if they're junk or good enough for this low-recoil use.

Having that censored or have the discussion of it leave ARF only chases good info and knowledgable people away from this site. And that's truly bad for the entire community in the end.
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 9:54:55 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kel:
IP theft is a hard one – I've been through it, suffered a ton of financial loss. Diz knows me from back in the day when I was selling suppressors and a competitor literally copied stuff down to the typos in our catalog. I was at Heckler & Koch's offices once and they did a little "why should we carry yours vs. Brand X that look identical but are cheaper?" At the end of the day, they shrugged and said any patent or IP issues should be handled by the courts, and it wasn't their place to determine who had the ethical high ground, or was the original inventor, or even if the patents were valid and what they even applied to. Cop out? Maybe.

Botach started selling a 100% clone of one of my products. I met with them to discuss. Their stance was "We don't have any way to know who has the rights to make it. We aren't going to incur expenses to do detective work and find out who is right here. YOU sue the copycat. In the meantime, sell it to us at the same price, and we'll stop carrying the other guy's." Cop out? Maybe.

Years later, after writing and paying for my personal patent applications, I more understand that side of things. If I get ripped off, it's up to ME to defend, and up to the legal system to determine if I'm right or the copycat is okay. It's not some guys on the web to make the call who's ripping who off.

Unlicensed cloners literally putting Wilcox's name on a G24-ish mount is obviously *wrong*.
But Argus making a near-identical mount but not ripping off trademarks and trade dress... sure, that obviously is what it is, but is it legally WRONG? That's not up to a store or internet guy to determine. Same with a toy NGAL or whatever. Just because the externals look the same and it's obviously a knockoff doesn't mean it violated a patent. (Unless there's a design "look" patent.) That's up to the courts to determine if the guts are the same, or whatever is claimed in a patent is violated or not. If someone loses in court, and a judgement is handed out, but China still keeps on, THEN it would be totally understandable if that product isn't fair game to link to or promote on this site.

It is a darn shame that the correct party just can't snap fingers and have justice. But there's a lot of weak patents that get challenged and shot down too. It's super unfortunate that things like this cost money to defend, but that's the point of a patent. If it's legit, you get to spend more money to defend it, and if you win, people still take pokes at it. And if it's foreign, you just ain't gonna win, financially. If I had my patent applications to do over, I probably wouldn't have spent tens of thousands of dollars on them, I just would have made my nut, sold stuff at maximum - but sustainable - profits until the market caught up, and then when R&D costs were recouped, relied on being the brand people trust at any cost, rather than relying on suing people in attempts to stay out of my lane.

I've got sympathy for the consumers as well as the real designers, not much sympathy for the knockoff vendors, but understand the situation that nature will find a way. At the end of the day, I'm not sure I "owe" anyone anything, but I appreciate Wilcox and have used their real stuff for years. At the end of the day, I respect that TNVC has done a lot of education and helped consumers gain a lot of ground in the NV space that really, otherwise wouldn't have happened. Kudos. At the end of the day, I try to support US companies in general vs. Chinese. I mostly use a DBAL (a "real" but old Laser Devices pre-Steiner they made custom for me), but might grab a Somo NGAL for my .22lr night varmint AR for the sole reason they're cheap and probably good enough for a .22. I'd like to read people's experience with them and hear about other options to include EO's and other US ones – find out if they're junk or good enough for this low-recoil use.

Having that censored or have the discussion of it leave ARF only chases good info and knowledgable people away from this site. And that's truly bad for the entire community in the end.
View Quote


I look at it this way. Wilcox sells their products to civilians and I will buy their product over the Chinese copy all day long because of that. American companies make NVG goodies that are about as good and maybe better than mil stuff so I would not buy foreign made NVGs for the same reason. There is a giant gap in LAMs from what people want and what is offered. Sure, the FDA is fucking us, but a foreign company found a way to deliver what American's want. Then there is the issue that a great deal of our cool guy stuff like optics with American names is still made overseas or at least the components are including some of the NVG tubes. L3 can't sell an NGAL to me, so I am not a potential customer for an NGAL. They would not be losing a sale because I am buying a SG NGAL and Uncle Sugar is the one paying them for an NGAL. If I could buy a real NGAL, I would.
Link Posted: 6/16/2023 10:59:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Engel12626] [#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ShoulderThingGoesUp:
... Until we can buy legal, non grey market LAMs the ban of discussing (not even selling lol) clones is pure corporate cuckoldry.

... Almost no one here can even buy these items new. The only market being “hurt” is the second hand grey market of stolen peqs and only extremely tangentially.  This is basically tacit support of banning civilians owning and purchasing fp IR gear and arfcom should be embarrassed.
View Quote

Link Posted: 6/16/2023 11:17:03 PM EDT
[#35]
I don’t dislike anyone/personalities/what they have to say, nor am I advocating for the purchase of off-shore, knock off items.

I was merely trying to illustrate (perhaps poorly worded) what it could appear as to the outside eye.

In multiple threads, over a few months that there have been repeated comments by the tnvc crew regarding authentic vs not gear. Because of your positions and what you guys do, I’m sure others see this too.

Now, fast forward a little bit and all of a sudden a 30 something page thread regarding a knock-off product gets locked out of the blue on a site which you guys are major sponsors.

It’s not surprising that you guys are all on the same page about real gear vs potential junk, but it just simply appeared to be in bad form to many members.

Myself? I do believe you guys that you have nothing to do with the lock.
I just don’t want to see an absolute wealth of information become a ghost town because of perceived censorship.
Link Posted: 6/17/2023 1:41:52 AM EDT
[#36]
I suspected initially, and will always probably hold suspicion that, tnvc did lodge some sort of complaint with site staff, that being said I am willing to more or less take you for your word because I don't think it's fully fair to have that be the complaint with tnvc, instead I must have my complaint then with site staff: you shouldn't lock down a thread that contains useful knowledge to your membership. Can we really do anything about it? No, but I think you should consider that in this case it has harmed the reputation of one of your major site sponsors because we (the membership), while having no confirmation, largely had good reason to suspect that tnvc requested that the thread be locked.

I also don't want to discount the positive effect tnvc has had on the industry  if all you (TNVC) said you've done is true- truly not intending to accuse you of lying btw I just don't know the history- then you've done a lot of good for us consumers. And I don't WANT that to stop. Hell, if you had a legal case to allow the sale of FP lasers to civilians I'd support it as best as I could, and if you won I'd be the first to sign up to buy a fp ngal from you. But if you also have threads where people affiliated with TNVC jump into threads about much more economically viable options for ecotis where they disparage that option, it's certainly of no surprise that people would suspect tnvc of being at least somewhat responsible for locking a thread about cheap fp Chinese lasers.

Listen, all I want is to buy a good fp laser. I hate that I can't buy that stateside. And frankly I don't give a damn whether it looks like an ngal or not, I just want it to be relatively affordable and be a good unit, and maybe even have a nice small form factor. However, because I can't buy that stateside (or really, if excellent quality is part of the equation, barely at all) I should be allowed to talk about the non-american options, regardless if they look like (certainly don't function like) other American fp products.
Link Posted: 6/17/2023 1:46:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: French1966] [#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Its up to the legal system to determine if I'm right or the copycat is okay. It's not some guys on the web to make the call who's ripping who off.

Its not up to a store or internet guy to determine. Same with a toy NGAL or whatever. Just because the externals look the same and it's obviously a knockoff doesn't mean it violated a patent. (Unless there's a design "look" patent.) That's up to the courts to determine if the guts are the same, or whatever is claimed in a patent is violated or not.

View Quote


This really sums it up

We have mods pretending to be patent attorneys and judges

And they look like fools doing it, while also chasing people off the forum, or at least motivating people not to be paying members anymore (myself included).

They are masking their power trip with fake patriotism and spitting in the face of free speech, our legal system, and free market principles.

To the mods involved:
Just stop. These lasers shouldn’t be your hill to die on.

Or at the very least…
When I have $20,000+ of American made gear in just one loadout and I decide to spend $240 on a laser that you don’t like, stop pretending like I should be ashamed of something.

Just say you don’t like them, but stop making BS excuses to ban our speech
Link Posted: 6/17/2023 2:05:36 AM EDT
[#38]
Thank you Augee/TNVC for responding. I do believe your claim that you were not the ones pushing for censorship of the other thread. I also agree that a $300-$700 laserbox is typically not competing for the same dollars that might go to a $2000-$4000 laserbox.

However, this makes the censorship on the part of Arfcom even more unsettling. It would be one thing if they censored a thread to keep money flowing that keeps this site alive.... but to do it for free? Makes me think of the Volunteer ATF agent type that would ask someone at the range for their stamp when they see a suppressor or short barreled rifle. Such behavior is reddit-tier and soypilled.
Link Posted: 6/17/2023 2:33:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ShoulderThingGoesUp] [#39]
Just to be clear, telling site sponsors to “man up on the FDA” was tongue in cheek meant to point out the ridiculousness of being concerned about hurting US companies with clones of things we are not even allowed to buy.  No one expects TNVC or anyone else to get shut down/fined to sell us an overpriced LAM.

That said, we do expect to not have site sponsors and/or mods actively thwarting simple technical discussions about the only low risk workaround we have at the moment.  I dont know who or exactly why….   but those people need to fuck right off.
Link Posted: 6/17/2023 2:04:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ShoulderThingGoesUp:
Just to be clear, telling site sponsors to “man up on the FDA” was tongue in cheek meant to point out the ridiculousness of being concerned about hurting US companies with clones of things we are not even allowed to buy.  No one expects TNVC or anyone else to get shut down/fined to sell us an overpriced LAM.

That said, we do expect to not have site sponsors and/or mods actively thwarting simple technical discussions about the only low risk workaround we have at the moment.  I dont know who or exactly why….   but those people need to fuck right off.
View Quote


Agree with the above sentiment. (Not that anyone should care)

Looking back at the now locked thread that ran for 15 months or so without any issues and then the spector of IP gets tossed in the conversation by TNVC. Then the thread is locked shortly after.

Coincidence - maybe, but thinking about motive, opportunity and means leads me to a different conclusion. If the NV forum is going to thrive it can’t be beholden to any site sponsors.

Link Posted: 6/17/2023 3:20:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Link Posted: 6/17/2023 7:28:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Will:


I’m sure some folks will keep posting these threads as bait threads to create drama.

View Quote


No. Your opinion makes no sense.

The people paying to be here and sharing information would just like to be left alone. Take away our ability to have normal discussions and we’ll just leave. We don’t pay a subscription to be patronized by you or moderators over common subjects of discussion that don’t violate any codes of conduct
Link Posted: 6/17/2023 7:33:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Yeet-Cannon] [#43]
I bet TNVC gets pissed off I acquired brand new in the bag 12/2022 production full power PEQ-15s, despite not being able to get them via "normal" means.

Would probably report the dealer that hooked me up to the FDA and L3.

TNVC- absolutely nobody outside of this site truly believes you didn't whine to the mods or site staff.

I don't believe in "coincidence". Especially since we have articulable facts and circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to come to a fact-backed conclusion that you indeed, were more likely than not behind it in *some* way.

I don't believe you. Nor do I care that you don't care we don't believe you.

When you make pot-shots about "authentic" products in multiple threads, and suddenly a 15 month old thread gets shut down after you made those little jabs, what are people supposed to think?

I also think your company is less than honest about going-ons having to do with this site, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were behind Nocturnality Gear getting banned last year either, despite him not advertising here.

We already know your company is classless based on the BS between yourselves and Robert at JRH.

Your company cannot stand competition, and companies like Steele Industries, Goonin Gear, Licentia Arms, Apollo Gear, etc are making you irrelevant with every passing week, to anyone who actually does their research.

The only reason I'd imagine your company is alive at this point, is due to MIL and LE contracts....and IMHO, it shows.

The ass-dragging you're getting on reddit and elsewhere, is absolutely warranted. Because nobody believes you except the people here who are giving you the benefit of the doubt, despite evidence to the contrary based on posts made by company representatives.
Link Posted: 6/17/2023 9:19:50 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yeet-Cannon:
I bet TNVC gets pissed off I acquired brand new in the bag 12/2022 production full power PEQ-15s, despite not being able to get them via "normal" means.

Would probably report the dealer that hooked me up to the FDA and L3.

TNVC- absolutely nobody outside of this site truly believes you didn't whine to the mods or site staff.

I don't believe in "coincidence". Especially since we have articulable facts and circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to come to a fact-backed conclusion that you indeed, were more likely than not behind it in *some* way.

I don't believe you. Nor do I care that you don't care we don't believe you.

When you make pot-shots about "authentic" products in multiple threads, and suddenly a 15 month old thread gets shut down after you made those little jabs, what are people supposed to think?

I also think your company is less than honest about going-ons having to do with this site, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were behind Nocturnality Gear getting banned last year either, despite him not advertising here.

We already know your company is classless based on the BS between yourselves and Robert at JRH.

Your company cannot stand competition, and companies like Steele Industries, Goonin Gear, Licentia Arms, Apollo Gear, etc are making you irrelevant with every passing week, to anyone who actually does their research.

The only reason I'd imagine your company is alive at this point, is due to MIL and LE contracts....and IMHO, it shows.

The ass-dragging you're getting on reddit and elsewhere, is absolutely warranted. Because nobody believes you except the people here who are giving you the benefit of the doubt, despite evidence to the contrary based on posts made by company representatives.
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Attachment Attached File



Link Posted: 6/18/2023 7:53:53 AM EDT
[#45]
Hey Kel!  Glad to see you still standing my brother!  Yes I do remember you from back in the day, and thanks for the invites to some awesome vendor parties.

On the subject of IP theft, yes you got hosed, as well as myself.  I had a customer who specified a chest rig for LE use, and then claimed it was his design and had it produced by another vendor.  That shit hurts.  However, I was pleasantly surprised by the reaction from the community at large, who were not shy of saying that was a Diz rig.  So in the end, I have concluded that folks will buy your products on the strength of your reputation, even when someone else copies it.  I have also concluded that your money is better spent developing new designs, rather than trying to protect old ones.  If someone is copying you, they are always one step behind.  

As regards TNVC.  I see both sides of this argument.  They have been instrumental in getting some products made available to the civvie market, and they have been an excellent source of info of all things NV.  They are a site sponsor here and pay a lot of money to be here and pass out the free chicken.  Personally I hold no grudge against any one individual, in fact I would buy Augee or Will a beer and shoot the shit about this stuff any day.  We don't always agree on everything, but we don't have to.  I respect their opinions, and hope they respect mine.  

However.  There has been a long pattern of TNVC informing on folks they feel are a threat to their business.  From the guy importing lasers to compete with their Torch, to the guy tweaking his unit on SH, to the threads on arfcom, where at least 3 threads that I know of were shut down, and multiple warnings given to folks who were discussing these things.  TNVC's official stance is they had nothing to do with these things.  But many see this as being disingenuous, if not downright bullshit.  And their stance on IP theft might be a bit self-serving.  Many see this as not really being their place, and along with the mods here, acting like judge, jury, and executioner, to enforce their view of things.  

Does the good out-weigh the bad here, or the other way around?  I have been trying to stay on the fence here, although I am getting tired of their pot-shots.  I think they have a done a lot of good in the past, but may be over-stepping the boundaries of ethical behavior in some instances, which is apparent to a lot of folks.  Doing something is one thing; denying you did it just makes it worse.   This reminds me of a L/Cpl standing tall in front of me, Monday morning, after a wild pay-day weekend.  I have a pretty good idea of what he did, and I'm pretty sure he did it, but I just want him to 'fess up and own it.  If he starts weaving some sea story about mysterious forces and unknown actors and expecting me to believe it, it just pisses me off.  And does his case no good.  That is the key point here.  If TNVC will just admit to being SOMEWHERE in the process of mods intervening, right or wrong, we can all move on.  You can't express your displeasure of us discussing these things, and then expect us to believe the gods of arfcom didn't hear your cries, and decide to intervene.  You set things in motion, then step back and proclaim: I didn't do nuthin'.  That's L/Cpl level bullshit.
Link Posted: 6/18/2023 10:24:54 AM EDT
[#46]
Link Posted: 6/18/2023 10:48:24 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Will:
Take up your issue with the site staff. Regardless of what you believe we did or didn’t do, this isn’t our website.

Perpetuating rumors and making accusations against TNVC based on things we’ve said on the forum is not proof that we are responsible.

Speaking for myself, yes, I have expressed my opinion about knockoff products. Not that it matters but FYSA I have held anti-counterfeit opinions before joining TNVC.

Consider this - does it not make sense that TNVC staff would advocate on this forum for companies that they distribute for who are directly affected by counterfeit or IP theft?

Perhaps our personal emotions about this bleeds over when we do. Myself, I’ll apologize for that if I came across like a dick but no f’n way am I going to apologize for something that I didn’t do.
View Quote


Maybe literally. That doesn't mean ARFCOM doesn't have a vested interest in catering to TNVCs complaints.

See exhibit A-

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/18/2023 2:36:24 PM EDT
[#48]
Link Posted: 6/18/2023 4:08:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Yeet-Cannon] [#49]
CoC
Link Posted: 6/18/2023 7:25:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
I will be requesting a meeting with the Site Staff and owners next week to discuss the interpretations of the CoC and see if there is a way to stay within those bounds without too much stifling of the free and open exchange of information. I have some ideas of my own.
View Quote

I think this is a good call and I would recommend that you do everything you can to make everything as transparent as possible. For you, I'd say that site staff making the decision to lock a thread that many would suspect you were potentially responsible for and thusly damaging your reputation is a huge concern as a site sponsor. Especially when you don't believe the product being discussed to be of any legit competition to you.
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