Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Site Notices
Posted: 6/27/2015 12:45:16 AM EDT
I was going to make a thread tomorrow after I shoot some ZQI 7.62x51 ammo. (Now that I started this thread, I'll just update it). I got MOA 6 out of 10 shots factory ZQI but with 4 flyers it changed to 5 MOA.

I pulled 36 factory cartridges, measured the powder, COL, sorted bullet and casings by weight and loaded them up.

My hypothesis is if I make the cartridges similar in COL, powder charge, bullet weight and casing weight I should get some great groupings.

Factory powder ranged from 43.4-44.8 grains! That's a large variance for only 36 rounds. Also the casings ranged from 175-179.2 grains and the bullets 145.6-148.5 grains.

I loaded 6 round groups with 43.5 and 3 round groups of 43.6, 43.7, 43.8, 43.9 and 6 rounds of 44.0 grains.

I also made a potpourri mix of 10 with the remaining bullets, brass and powder at 42.5gr.

Since the factory powder, casings and brass were 1-2 grains apart, groupings should improve.

Best thing about reloading cheap ammo, you can turn it into match. I'll find out tomorrow.

Here's the powder. Mix of ball and flake powder? Never seen that before.



Link Posted: 6/27/2015 1:27:24 AM EDT
If you put a 168gr SMK in 'em, it's "Mexican Match".



Otherwise remanufactured?

Link Posted: 6/27/2015 1:50:08 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If you put a 168gr SMK in 'em, it's "Mexican Match".

Otherwise remanufactured?
View Quote



No, it's called something else but my Google fu is weak.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 1:53:07 AM EDT
Yep. Mexican match. Same bullet, same case but with an exact powder charge.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 1:59:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If you put a 168gr SMK in 'em, it's "Mexican Match".

Otherwise remanufactured?
View Quote



You're right, it is Mexican Match.

I could have sworn it was called something else.

My difference is I'm leveling the powder charge, casing weight and bullet weight by group.

Should get better results.

Link Posted: 6/27/2015 3:47:06 AM EDT
The only time I've heard the term Mexican match was when the bullets were replaced with match bullets hence the name.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 7:53:34 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The only time I've heard the term Mexican match was when the bullets were replaced with match bullets hence the name.
View Quote



+1
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 8:35:35 AM EDT
Good stuff, OP. I'll be watching for your results.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 9:03:12 AM EDT
The powder actually looks pretty normal for that kind of ammo.

I have some 7.62x54R Silver Tip Czech ammo that would have at least one flier in 5. It's fairly well known that the primers are the week link in this type of ammo.

I don't think you could call what I do Mexican match because I put the components into a boxer primed brass case but like you I standardize the powder charge.

This has proven to eliminate the fliers.

Then I use the steel berdan case to load a sub-sonic cast load.

Motor
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 11:09:49 AM EDT
I doubt you'll see much improvement for all the effort that went into these. Quality bullets make a difference, a military full metal jacket bullet isn't a quality bullet.

Back when Palma competitors were issued ammo by the host country they would weigh each loaded round and separate the ammo into batches based on total round weight. It was believed to help scores and the biggest difference was considered to be the case weight, not the powder charge or the bullets.

Most ball powders throw nearly identical charge weights when dropped. Your wide variations in charge weights may be why that ammo was directed to the civilian market, it didn't pass velocity or accuracy standards to accepted by the military. Or you have powder still stuck inside some of the cases.

One winter I pulled over 1000 7.62x51mm 147 grain fmj's and seated 150 grain Sierra Match Kings in an effort to improve accuracy. This was a common practice with M118 173 grain military match ammo, replacing that bullet with a 168 SMK aka Mexican match. . Well this experiment did not go so well. The 150 grain SMK spiked pressure with the 147 grain M80 ball powder charge and I had to pull them all again.  

Link Posted: 6/27/2015 1:12:49 PM EDT
What Border patrol said:

- I would say your best bet is replacing the poor bullet.  

-In theory your effort to even out the powder charge should lessen the velocity variations but if you are, say only shooting at 100yds, the difference might be too small to see.

BUT try it and see.

If it were me and I was curious:
-even out the charges.
-RENECK SIZE (to get the tension consistent).
-use a better bullet.  
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 1:54:46 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What Border patrol said:

- I would say your best bet is replacing the poor bullet.  

-In theory your effort to even out the powder charge should lessen the velocity variations but if you are, say only shooting at 100yds, the difference might be too small to see.

BUT try it and see.

If it were me and I was curious:
-even out the charges.
-RENECK SIZE (to get the tension consistent).
-use a better bullet.  
View Quote

And at that point, you're approaching the amount of effort to just start fresh.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 2:23:11 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What Border patrol said:

- I would say your best bet is replacing the poor bullet.  

-In theory your effort to even out the powder charge should lessen the velocity variations but if you are, say only shooting at 100yds, the difference might be too small to see.

BUT try it and see.

If it were me and I was curious:
-even out the charges.
-RENECK SIZE (to get the tension consistent).
-use a better bullet.  
View Quote



If you're going to all that trouble, why not shoot the ZQI stuff as is and then reload it appropriately. I am amassing a 5 gal bucket full of this brass to replace the TAA08 brass I've been using for the past 4 years that has darn near 10 reloads on it.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 6:44:38 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



If you're going to all that trouble, why not shoot the ZQI stuff as is and then reload it appropriately. I am amassing a 5 gal bucket full of this brass to replace the TAA08 brass I've been using for the past 4 years that has darn near 10 reloads on it.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
What Border patrol said:

- I would say your best bet is replacing the poor bullet.  

-In theory your effort to even out the powder charge should lessen the velocity variations but if you are, say only shooting at 100yds, the difference might be too small to see.

BUT try it and see.

If it were me and I was curious:
-even out the charges.
-RENECK SIZE (to get the tension consistent).
-use a better bullet.  



If you're going to all that trouble, why not shoot the ZQI stuff as is and then reload it appropriately. I am amassing a 5 gal bucket full of this brass to replace the TAA08 brass I've been using for the past 4 years that has darn near 10 reloads on it.




AGREED 100% but the OP didn't ask if he was wasting his time.  My handloads will easily match if not beat any factory match ammo......

PS- I looked in the Sierra ballistic charts.............The difference in drop at 100yds of a 150FMJ 308 between 2700 and 2800 FPS is 0.21".  So again..........depending on your loads, rifle and distance...........I'm not sure if you'll see anything worth the effort.  

But I'm not going to tell the OP- don't do it, I could be wrong.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 6:53:13 PM EDT
That ( those?) powder looks like something swept off reloading room floor

I haven't fooled with inport 762NATO since the CAVIM days

I'd avoid that crap and just buy once fired LC brass for my dillons
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 7:22:18 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That ( those?) powder looks like something swept off reloading room floor

I haven't fooled with inport 762NATO since the CAVIM days

I'd avoid that crap and just buy once fired LC brass for my dillons
View Quote



It shoots alright out of an accurate rifle. 3-4MOA. That's good enough for most battle rifles with iron sights.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 9:01:02 PM EDT
To be a little more specific, we used to take issued M118 7.62 Match ammo or M72 .30-06 Match ammo, pull the 173 gr FMJBT bullet and replaced it with a 168 gr Sierra Match King.

The 173 gr FMJBT was supposed to weigh 173 grains and in the late 1950s when the M72 load was developed, it did.  It still did in the mid 1960's when the M118 was developed.  However the tooling wore over the years and by the late 1970s the weight started to vary a grain or two either side of 173 grains.    

The 173 gr FMJBT, like every other FMJ, has an open base and it's very difficult to get a perfectly concentric base with an open boat tail.  Consequently, the accuracy potential was limited compared to a hollow point match bullet like the 169r SMK.  In my case I could expect 3/4 MOA accuracy with a hand loaded 168 gr SMK in my M1A, but considered myself fortunate to get 1.5 MOA accuracy with issued M118 Match ammo.  

That was what resulted in people pulling the projectiles in M118 or M72 ammo and substituting 168 gr SMK bullets.  This created what was called "Mexican match" ammo.

-----


Given that the ZQI 7.62 ammo is an M80 copy using a 147 gr bullet, substituting a 168 gr SMK would be really, really bad idea.

It's also not a great idea to dump and re-weigh the powder.   Large ammo companies use bulk propellants rather than canister grade powders.  There is a lot more variation between powder lots with bulk propellants and for each large lot of powder (10,000 pounds or more) the company will develop a load that generates the required velocity.  This will result in a different charge weight for each lot pf powder.  Consequently, if you pull down the powder from cartridges using different lots of powder, you don't really know what you've got.



 



Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:01:56 AM EDT
[b]Quoted:[/b

Here's the powder. Mix of ball and flake powder? Never seen that before.

<a href="http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rabidus_/media/5A9DDA40-83B7-4AE2-AA49-169FB6646797_zps6cqjpldr.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c311/rabidus_/5A9DDA40-83B7-4AE2-AA49-169FB6646797_zps6cqjpldr.jpg</a>
View Quote
 

That is "rolled ball" propellant. Since propellant burns from the surface, inward, burning time is based on how thick the granule is. If it is a flake, it burns out in the time it takes to burn form one side toward the center. For a sphere (ball powder), it is the time it takes to burn from the surface to the center. If the granules are of different sizes, the larger ones will take longer to burn out. Far easier than sieving them, the particles (while still soft) are run through rollers that squeeze each large particle down to the thickness desired. Although pancaked, they will burn through in the same time as the "correct" spherical particles. Any undersized particles will have to be screen/sieved out or there will be an undesirable sudden high pressure spike at the start of burning.

"Mexican Match" was 7.62X51mm M118 ammo that had the 173r bullet replaced with a 168r Sierra Matchking. This was done in the early 1960's by the US Army Marksmanship Unit for participation in some international shooting competition that was held in Mexico. Hence, the name "Mexican" Match.
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:56:20 PM EDT
I didn't get to test my Mexican match bullets yet.

Just to be clear:

1. I sorted the brass by weight.
2. I loaded each powder charge with a scale.
3. I sorted the bullets by weight.

Mexican match is just pulling the bullets and loading match bullets into the casing and powder.

I sorted everything by weight. Considering there was a 1- 1.5 grain variance in powder, a 4 grain variance in casing and 3 grain variance in bullet weight. That's why I had a lot of flyers in this ammo. I will post again after I shoot my loads. I got a new barrel for my ar308 and function tested it
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 2:23:44 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

And at that point, you're approaching the amount of effort to just start fresh.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
What Border patrol said:

- I would say your best bet is replacing the poor bullet.  

-In theory your effort to even out the powder charge should lessen the velocity variations but if you are, say only shooting at 100yds, the difference might be too small to see.

BUT try it and see.

If it were me and I was curious:
-even out the charges.
-RENECK SIZE (to get the tension consistent).
-use a better bullet.  

And at that point, you're approaching the amount of effort to just start fresh.



True but other than time, I'm turning mil surplus ammo into almost match at no additional cost.

Actually, if my reloads turn a better grouping with less powder I will gain extra powder. I made some loads 0 - 2 grains under factory. I'm f I can save 1/2 a grain each bullet, it'll add up.

Plus, gotta buy this ammo while it's available at Walmart.

Link Posted: 6/29/2015 2:50:40 PM EDT
There is a false equivalence here in that you are equating ammunition with equal powder charges as being "almost match". You may see some increase in accuracy, but I would imagine outside of eliminating a few extremes, the average accuracy will be fairly unaffected.

The bullet is simply a much more important component.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 4:33:18 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There is a false equivalence here in that you are equating ammunition with equal powder charges as being "almost match". You may see some increase in accuracy, but I would imagine outside of eliminating a few extremes, the average accuracy will be fairly unaffected.

The bullet is simply a much more important component.
View Quote

And your time is worth something.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 7:55:16 PM EDT
I am also in the "shoulda replaced the bullet with a equal or ( preferably ) lighter weight match bullet" camp.... I truly believe that the bullet is one of the most important parts to a reload... ultimately THE most important if you are even slightly OCD.

But, I fully understand your experiment..... I will add though, there is one variable that you have overlooked... the tar sealant at the neck.

Others have reported improved accuracy with ZQ1 simply by seating the bullet slightly deeper, which breaks the sealant bond and allows more consistent "neck tension".... hence allowing more consistent bullet release.

That is also an old Mexi. Match trick....

Judging by your photo... the pulled bullets appear to have various levels of "tar sealant" on them, so you can see how that might impact your results.

In other words, what if you "reloaded" a heavily coated bullet into a heavily coated case neck..... and vice versa...

You might try not disassembling some of the ZQ1 sorting them by overall weight and just barely seating the bullets deeper.... just a few thousands will do.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 8:02:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

And your time is worth something.
View Quote



Spoken like a man that has loaded for decades.... I agree whole heartedly....

I think of all the time I wasted , in my youth, spent trying to "make" an inexpensive" bullet shoot accurately....

ziarifleman's comment is just trying to point out the folly of inexpensive bullets.... and he is right.

Use a premium match bullet, it may seem expensive when you compare 100 FMJ v. 100 SMK... but in the end you will learn more and save money.


Again to the OP... I am not saying you are wasting your time.. since it is yours to do with as you see fit..... maybe you could buy some 150 SMK and try exactly the same experiment...

An error occurred on the server when processing the URL. Please contact the system administrator.

If you are the system administrator please click here to find out more about this error.