What model and caliber was the Italian rifle that supposedly Oswald used to kill Kennedy?  I hate to sound morbid, but is it available C&R FFL?  Thanks Guys.

6.5 mm M1938 (Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38)

Quoted: What model and caliber was the Italian rifle that supposedly Oswald used to kill Kennedy?  I hate to sound morbid, but is it available C&R FFL?  Thanks Guys.

Cartridge allegedly used by Oswald: was the Mannlicher Carcano Model 91/38 Carbine with a 21 inch barrel (Serial Number: C2766 ) chambered in 6.5 x 52mm.

The cartridge that was allegedly used: was the military ball ammo which had a weight of: 162 grains and was a Round Nose FMJ round. It had a Muzzle Velocity of about 2200 fps fired from the carbine. (2300 fps fired from the longer barrel Model 91 Rifle).

Here is a picture of the Rifle

I have a Carcano in 7.35 cal.  It actually shoots accurately but the ammo is pricey

AIM surplus had a few of these a couple months ago. Wish I would have grabbed one.

M-40, from the grassy null.

As for Oswald, if he did make the shots, he had some magic bullets that defied the laws of physics so the type of rifle doesn't really matter!

Dano-

Respectfully, bullshine.

The limo had a narrower middle bench (Connelly was riding there) seat than the bench rear seat K was riding on.   Look at the photos taken from the front of the limo that day, also there are some schematics showing the overhead view.IIRC, it was something like 18" narrower than the rear.

Translation, C's shoulder was in line with K's neck.

The neck shot that went out K's tie knot went forward and down, hit C in the shoulder and hit nothing but skin, then his hand and into his leg.  It's the closest thing to an arrow straight trajectory I've seen.    

That revisionist crap vomitted forth by Stone showed, intentionally, two guys in chairs riding one directly in front of the other, mandating Costner's exagerrated gyrations with the pointer.  Intentionally misleading.

I have read the Warren report, and used to work for Joe Ball, chief evidence counsel and author of the chapters on the rifle and Oswald as the lone actor/shooter.  He was also a dyed in the wool, Kennedy is God, liberal democrat and the smartest guy I ever met.  No way he would have buried any evidence or jumped to any conclusions.

He was convinced Oswald shot K, with that rifle, and I discussed the chapter with him before he died.

Oswald shot Kennedy, no one else fired that day.    

Why are there hundreds, if not thousands of pages of documents that, we the people, cannot see until the year 2040? Sounds like a cover up too me. Oswald was set up.

Oswald was not set up.  That kind of crap is silly.

Facts: He bought the rifle they show in the pictures from a mail order place in Chicago using an aliasa he used in the past as confirmed by his wife and others.

He practiced with the rifle, his wife and range personell/parons confirm this.

He fired a shot at that general through his window, they found logs/diaries when they searched his house showing planning and egress, his wife stated that he was gone when the shots were fired and sweaty/nervous when she saw him immediatly therafter. She suspected he shot at that general.

He kept that rifle at a friend's garage.  

THe guy he carpooled with took him to THAT garage THAT day before work.

Oswald went into the garage and came out with a brownpaper package abourt 4 feet long and said it was curtain rods.

THen K gets shot, the rifle gets found where he works, not in the garage where they kept it and no curtain rods anywhere.

Then Oswald shoots officer Tippett in broad daylight in front of 2 witnesses.

Some patsy.  The CIA/Mafia/cubans/etc were SO lucky he did all those things that day.

There are millions of documents still calssified about lots of stuff, WW2 for example.

Britain JUST declassified some stuff re BLetchley park and their codebreakers re ENIGMA.

Does that automatically mean Churchill was gay for Hitler or any other conspiracy?

No.

There are papers you and I can't view.  THat fact alone is evidence of what?

Nothing.


BTW Joe Ball saw everything he wanted, he felt O was the shooter.

How many government workers on shitty pensions do you feel are capable of taking a secret like that to their graves?

Why cover it up?

Because K was "gonna" pull out of Nam?  Read the text of his Trade Mart and other speeches, he wasn't pulling out of anything.

Get real.

 

It was 30'06 fired from a Winchester mod 70 from a sewer. I hope they dont come for me....
GG

"What Model Carcano killed Kennedy?"

Guns don't kill, people do.

Use the enemy's terminology and phrasing, and you do his bidding for him.

Quoted: Oswald was not set up.  That kind of crap is silly. Facts: He bought the rifle they show in the pictures from a mail order place in Chicago using an aliasa he used in the past as confirmed by his wife and others. He practiced with the rifle, his wife and range personell/parons confirm this. He fired a shot at that general through his window, they found logs/diaries when they searched his house showing planning and egress, his wife stated that he was gone when the shots were fired and sweaty/nervous when she saw him immediatly therafter. She suspected he shot at that general. He kept that rifle at a friend's garage.   THe guy he carpooled with took him to THAT garage THAT day before work. Oswald went into the garage and came out with a brownpaper package abourt 4 feet long and said it was curtain rods. THen K gets shot, the rifle gets found where he works, not in the garage where they kept it and no curtain rods anywhere. Then Oswald shoots officer Tippett in broad daylight in front of 2 witnesses. Some patsy.  The CIA/Mafia/cubans/etc were SO lucky he did all those things that day. There are millions of documents still calssified about lots of stuff, WW2 for example. Britain JUST declassified some stuff re BLetchley park and their codebreakers re ENIGMA. Does that automatically mean Churchill was gay for Hitler or any other conspiracy? No. There are papers you and I can't view.  THat fact alone is evidence of what? Nothing. BTW Joe Ball saw everything he wanted, he felt O was the shooter. How many government workers on shitty pensions do you feel are capable of taking a secret like that to their graves? Why cover it up? Because K was "gonna" pull out of Nam?  Read the text of his Trade Mart and other speeches, he wasn't pulling out of anything. Get real.

 So you think Oswald alone killed Kennedy? Most would disagree. It is possible that Oswald shot from the schoolbook depository, but there is plenty of evidence to dispute it. There is also eyewitnesses who would not identify Oswald as the killer of Tippett. We could go round and round, but we all know I'm right Question authority, it's fun!

Citadel,

What did he have to say about that photo of Oswald and the rifle that appeared to have been altered?  The one with the shadows in the wrong place.

Quoted: Citadel, What did he have to say about that photo of Oswald and the rifle that appeared to have been altered?  The one with the shadows in the wrong place.

Exactly. He is going to owe me an apology in 2040 Oswald was not the loan, crazed nut that he was portrayed as. CIA all the way. Even his Marine buddies suspected he was receiving intelligence training while in the the service. Goes to Russia,( as a supposed defector), and then is allowed to come back to the States? No questions asked? Hmmmmmm....Believe me, those Documents reveal something.

Quoted: Dano- Respectfully, bullshine. The limo had a narrower middle bench (Connelly was riding there) seat than the bench rear seat K was riding on.   Look at the photos taken from the front of the limo that day, also there are some schematics showing the overhead view.IIRC, it was something like 18" narrower than the rear. Translation, C's shoulder was in line with K's neck. The neck shot that went out K's tie knot went forward and down, hit C in the shoulder and hit nothing but skin, then his hand and into his leg.  It's the closest thing to an arrow straight trajectory I've seen.     That revisionist crap vomitted forth by Stone showed, intentionally, two guys in chairs riding one directly in front of the other, mandating Costner's exagerrated gyrations with the pointer.  Intentionally misleading. I have read the Warren report, and used to work for Joe Ball, chief evidence counsel and author of the chapters on the rifle and Oswald as the lone actor/shooter.  He was also a dyed in the wool, Kennedy is God, liberal democrat and the smartest guy I ever met.  No way he would have buried any evidence or jumped to any conclusions. He was convinced Oswald shot K, with that rifle, and I discussed the chapter with him before he died. Oswald shot Kennedy, no one else fired that day.

this same stuff was in the book Mortal Error (don't remember author, same guy you speak of?).

while there are still lots of questions surrounding the assassination, the "magic bullet" wasn't so magic and its path is logical and straight.  read the book.

for citadel, how would you explain the very questionable acts of both the FBI and CIA regarding oswald's actions in American prior to and after his return from the Soviet Union?  also, how would you explain that a guy that wanted to renounce his citizenship go the U.S. government to pay for his return to the U.S.?  not to mention that he was stationed where the U2 planes were held and it was shortly after his defection to the Soviet Union that the U2 was shot down.  up to that point, there's little evidence to support the fact that the Soviets had any idea we were there.  of course it's not proof positive, but it does make ya go hmmmmmm.....

he sure as hell ain't innocent, but i don't think he was acting alone either.  

btw, that book i mentioned also has a section on the two different types of wounds-a through-and-through that wounded kennedy and connally and the second (third?) shot that exploded kennedy's head.  seems the author used ballistics and phyics alone to come up with the hypothesis that the secret service agent in the followup car, in attempting to return fire (presumably oswald's fire) accidentally shot kennedy.  there's a great explanation.  i can't even do justice to the argument here.  read the book.

the main conspiracy theories are that the assination was carried out by one of four possible groups: 1) the CIA; 2) right-wing Cuban exiles in the US; 3) the Mafia; 4) the Russians, specifically the KGB, for all the attendant reasons.  however, there is  fifth possible reason for JFK’s assassination --

this is the one I like

to keep him from revealing the truth about UFOs and interplanetary visitors.

the fact that JFK was privy to a document that allegedly describes the Roswell, NM UFO crash site as well as wreckage, with alien corpses, found at Socorro, NM.

Kennedy needed Illinois and that meant carrying Cook County big.  Cook didn't report until the afternoon 'after' the election.  Old Joe Kennedy cut a deal with the mob to insure the needed votes to carry Illinois - Kennedy obviously did carry Illinois and became President.

Old Joe Kennedy reneged on whatever deal he had cut with the mob, put Bobby in as Attorney General and ordered the Bobby to attack the mob, etc.  The short version is that due to old Joe's treachery he got got Jack Killed.

Who Killed Kennedy ??  The shooter doesn't matter but it sure was not Oswald.  The Family Mafia heads in Chicago, New Orleans and Tampa ordered the hit - some few individuals in the Secret Service and CIA assisted but not the institutions themselves.  Interestingly the hit was 'not' sanctioned by the mob commissioners and they were informed only after the hit.

The Mafia and CIA were already doing business together in their efforts to assassinate Castro.  The mob wanted Castro out so they could once again run the casinos in Cuba - big, big money was at stake here.

etc.

For CitadelGrad87 (and others who push this Oswald did it alone crap)!...

It's painfully obvious and woefully clear to anyone who looks at ANY facet of the 39 years of revealed evidence, ANY part of the investigation; that it was what it was,

---> a conspiracy and massive coverup.

...and it is what it is, an excruciatingly difficult task for you to make people believe-

--> this ridiculous "story" that Oswald did it.

You have to Un-Convince us of the obvious. You have a tough job trying to sell this pig. What motivates you? Are you Gerald Posner, who wrote the book Case Closed? (The book that asks people not to look or think.)

-->Just think, In 2040, you can give it up.

My 2 cents
M4-AK  

A good book on the rifles is---"The Carcano- Italy's Military Rifle" by Richard Hobbs. SARCO has it. Springfield Sporters has Carcano rifles.

Oh yeah, It was super models that did the shooting.
GG

Citadelgrad is on the money. Oswald did it. The smoke and mirrors come from the paranoid conspiracy theorists who twist the evidence to fit their respective pet theories. Sells books though, don't it?
Easy shooting, IMO, given the location and angle. With a little practice most of us could get off three good shots in the timeframe allotted.
Their may have been a conspiracy but Oswald was in it and did the shooting.

I know the FBI agent who tested THE rifle for the Warren Commission. He said no way he was alone There were multiple shooters.

The M38 Carbine 21" 1 in 7.75" twist shoots a 160 grain 2000 to 2100fps. 2100 being maxium loads - Hornady's handbook of Cartridge Reloading 5th Edition.

I heard Kennedy was sneaking Oswald's wife to the White House on weekends and banging her and Oswald vowed to get him if he ever came to Dallas.

People will almost never change their minds no matter what proof you can offer.  People who believe in a conspiracy we always believe in a conspiracy even if you invent a time machine and made them invisible so they could see what happened, they will still continue to doubt.  Here's a good website, I got it from one of Eric the Hun's posts
mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
very well researched and detailed.  Examines all of the evidence and rebukes the majority of the conspiracy theory evidence.  I will check into how to make it an active link and I will edit it when I know how.  
BTW, the Assassination Records Review Board has unclassified and viewed over 1.3 million pages of documents concerning the assassination of JFK, and they all show that Oswald acted alone.  They even have declassified KGB documents that show that Oswald was too unstable and he was not a KGB agent.  

Edited because I forgot to run spell check
edited again because I finally took the energy on how to make a link active

citadelgrad87..I think and believe your right..I know of Joe Ball and other things he worked on. If you knew him and helped him I have high respect for you. He helped lots of Vets out. Then if it was a conspiracy you would not be alive now :-)) I'm just kidding because I don't know what you really know.

Mach1 you ask why not until 2040. Well by then all of us who remember what happened will be dead or have Organic Brain Syndrome. so if it was a conspiracy the next generation will say you see. There will be no one to convict. It also has to do with the protection of Government secrets that still might be used in the field. Certain ways of working are still in use. If things got out say 2 or 10 yrs down the road. People and operations could be in jeopardy.

That does not go to say about Kennedy. But think about the Phoenix Project. Do any of you younger guys care what happened then? Do you know that some of those types of SOP's are still used today. If we had the SWS systems that are used now back then, there would be allot more dead Generals and people who made Nam go the way it did. Also certain things about Cambodia would be known years ago and not in another 20 yrs which will put me in my 70's.

I remember that day very well I remember Dr King and Robert Kennedy very well. These were turning points and changed the outcome of many things. If there were security like now back then maybe our world would be better off. John and Martin were true Peacemakers. You could disagree and troll me but you have to really remember what was going on in the 50's to realize it. Who knows if Robert would have followed in his brother’s footsteps but he worried allot of people. Yes lots of them were Mob related

Quoted: Mach1 you ask why not until 2040. Well by then all of us who remember what happened will be dead or have Organic Brain Syndrome. so if it was a conspiracy the next generation will say you see.

Well, that was exactly the point I was trying to convey. If these documents revealed anything that might incriminate Oswald, we certainly would have seen them by now. But, on the other hand, what if these documents reveal Oswald was not the loan gunman, well low and behold, we open up a whole new can of worms. Point is, we deserve to see these documents. I doubt they will reveal any "secret" techniques the Service uses. Hell, they can edit that out. I don't care. If anything, they will reveal how incompetent they were on that day. That wouldn't come as a shock to most Americans. The single loan gunman theory is the biggest lie foist upon the American public, and probably is the biggest single reason the American public began to lose faith in their Government. The biggest tragedy, is that we may never know what happened on that day in Dallas. Just another step towards Fascism.

I apologize for being a little outta the loop on this matter, but, assuming Oswald did it:

What was his motive?

and...

Why did Ruby shoot Oswald?

Quoted: I apologize for being a little outta the loop on this matter, but, assuming Oswald did it: What was his motive? and... Why did Ruby shoot Oswald?

Bigshooter,
concentrating on the shooters is fun but they were simply hired-hands.  The shooters were either Corsican or Cuban - I don't know which and they never saw the next morning sun anyway.

There is a building just across the narrow street from the School Book Depository and the effective shooter shot Kennedy from a second floor window.  There was a shooter on the grassy knoll who shot at least once and missed the whole damn car !  His shot hit the curb.

Now who directed the hit ?  Chicago, New Orleans and Tampa from the mob and some few individuals from the CIA and the secret service participated but the institutions themselves were not aware of the assassination plan.  Neither was the entire mob commission aware and they were only informed 'after' the hit.

Ruby was ordered to shoot Oswald by the mob.  Apparently life in prison or even a humane execution was preferable to his alternatives.

Watch the film "Cofessions of an Assassin". In it Sam Giancana hit man James E. Files gives his testimony from Joliet St. Prison on how he fired from the grassy knoll. He claimed to be using a Remington XP100 chambered in .222 Rem that launched a mercury filled bullet @3200fps into the head of Kennedy as Charles Nicolletti's 30.06 rnd hit simultaneously from the rear. Files was in the failsafe position should things go wrong, Nicolletti scolded him later for overreacting. He claims to have taken the cartridge out of the firearm, bit it and set it on the fence. Secret Service picked up a lot of stuff behind that fence, but the spent case was never presented as evidence.

Quoted: I apologize for being a little outta the loop on this matter, but, assuming Oswald did it: What was his motive? and... Why did Ruby shoot Oswald?

Oswald shot Kennedy because Oswald was a Marxist, and very pro-Castro.  Kennedy was known to be very anti-Castro (Bay of Pigs, Political Speeches, Cuban Missile Crises)  Oswald viewed himself as a revolutionary, much like the Marxists assassinating the Czar's family in 1918 in Russia.  

The following is from Volume II of the Hearings of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, pp. 301-302. Due to remarriage, Marina (Lee Harvey Oswald's wife) is "Mrs. Porter" here. The testimony was given on September 14, 1978. Note her endorsement of Priscilla Johnson McMillan's Marina and Lee as an accurate account.

Chairman STOKES. That is democracy.

Mrs. Porter, it has always been important for the American people to ascribe some motive to this killing. And I notice further that, in the same book, Miss Johnson writes this, and I am reading at page 434 of the book:

"In his eyes, his political ideas stood higher even than himself. He would talk about Marxism, Communism, and injustice all over the world."

Did you tell Miss Johnson that?

Mrs. PORTER. That was Miss Johnson's conclusion about studying Lee as a person. Her findings weren't based only on what I told her. She did great research and met with lots of people who knew Lee. That was her conclusion, and I agree with her.

(The man's own wife condenmed him.)

Ruby shot Oswald out of anger over what he did to the President but more importantly his anger at the suffering of Mrs. Kennedy.  He was also a nut.  Besides, what gain would a conspiracy have to have Ruby shoot Oswald?  That would give police another suspect for a suspect.  Oswald already had 48 hours to talk before he was shot, so it would be too late to stop him from exposing the conspiracy.  
Was Ruby a person you could trust to a conspiracy?  
Let's ask his friends.
Dallas reporter Tony Zoppi knew Ruby well and says one "would have to be crazy" to entrust Ruby with anything important, that he "couldn't keep a secret for five minutes. . . . Jack was one of the most talkative guys you would ever meet. He'd be the worst fellow in the world to be part of a conspiracy, because he just plain talked too much."(1) "Jack Ruby would be the last one that I could ever trust to do anything," says Ruby's rabbi, Hillel Silverman.(2)
or how about a stripper who worked for him?
According to stripper Janet "Jada" Conforto, Ruby was "totally unpredictable. . . . Completely emotional. One minute he is nice, and the next minute he goes berserk. . . . I don't think he is sane."(3) American Guild of Variety Artists official Johnnie Hayden called Ruby a "kook" because of his unpredictable and erratic outbursts.(4) Edward Pullman, whose wife worked for Ruby, called him "insane. He was a psycho. . . . He was not right."(5) William Serur knew Ruby for over ten years and said, "In the last few years I thought he might have been suffering from some form of . . . mental disturbance, by the way he acted."(6)

Rabbi Silverman says, "He was a very volatile, a very emotional, unbalanced person. He thought he was doing the right thing [when he shot Oswald]. He loved Kennedy."(7) "I hope I killed the son of a bitch," Ruby said immediately afterwards to the Dallas police who arrested him. "It will save you guys a lot of trouble."(8) He told Assistant DA Bill Alexander, "Well, you guys couldn't do it. Someone had to do it. That son of a bitch killed my President."(9)

"Jack actually thought he might come out of this as a hero of sorts," says Alexander. "He thought he had erased any stigma the city had by knocking off Oswald."(10) Attorney Jim Martin spoke to Ruby soon after his arrest and says, "He never expected to spend a night in jail."(11)

M4 and others,

I don't "need" to convince you or anyone that your theory is incorrect.

The problem with YOUR theory is that there is no evidence of what you think the truth is.  Fifteen percent of AMericans believe Elvis lives, and "most" support "reasonable" gun control.  Let's talk about us, not what others believe.  

Meaning, although you question some of the evidence pointing to Oswald, I see no credible evidence that something else happenned.

Example:  Brouhaha asked about the photo of O that seems to be doctored.  It does seem wierd, but that may be evidence that the picture is doctored.  That should raise suspicion that something else may be afoot, but it is NOT evidence supporting a conspiracy, unless we know who did it and why.

You say some pieces are missing from the puzzle of Oswald acting alone.  I say there are NO pieces making up your puzzle, rather you point to various missing pieces in my puzzle, no actual pieces of your theory.

I view this as similar to the OJ criminal defense, a shotgun and unfocused attack on the evidence, with no real substantive evidence offerred in the alternative.

I DO NOT EQUATE YOU WITH J COCKRING.  I use it as an example.

BTW, ask the "question" of whether O shot that day to the guy sitting on the 5th floor just below him, he appears in some of the film shot that day.   He heard a rifle going off right above his head, looked up but couldn't see the shooter, but he heard him working the bolt between shots.

Re O and the USSR, that is wierd, one of the wierdest things to go on during the cold war, but it is not proof of anything without more, and I have looked at everything I could get my hands on and saw no such proof.

Re "Massive conspiracy"  Are you serious? That's like "Jumbo shrimp."  How could that story be kept in the dark for so long?  How many people would HAVE to know about it and still could keep it quiet?  Do you know how crappy CIA pensions are compared to what bestselling authors make?    

Re motive:  Did you ever see that discovery channel show on assasins?

Squeaky Fromme put a .45 in Ford's ribs becasue she wanted him to listen to her concerns about the environment.  Don't make the mistake of assuming what motivated O or any criminal would need to convince you that it made sense to commit the crime.      

it was the the illuminati every one knows that

sarcasm

I have a question...

I am in the camp that there was one shooter, Oswald.  But look at this clip, and tell me how the head snaps back after a head hit if hit from the rear?  The page link is
www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/park/1097/storm.html
Here is the clip of the headshot below...



After shooting, hunting, and such, I have some questions...  Even though I HATE the conspiracy theories.

Hi ALaddin.

I have two explanations, one from a MD who responded that bodies do lots of strange things when there is a massive disturbance to the central nervous system.  The reason the kill square on HRT type targets is about as big as a playing card is that only a shot through the medulla truly shuts off the target.  Muscle spasm and even conscious movement is possible with other types of shot placement.

The second explanation is more practical, have you ever shot a can, melon, or anything else and had it leap toward you?  I have.

In that clip you can see a pink mist coming out of the front of K's head, seems to be from the proj exiting.

Lastly, the storm drain shot would be at least as difficult as the Oswald shot, think about it, you'd have to wait for the windshild and Connelly to clear your line of fire, and just as they cleared your shot, you're looking at what is rapidly becoming a 90 degree deflection shot.

Edited to add, WOW, that "storm drain" guy is out there:

  "The president appears to be "stuck" in the same position after being "hit" in the throat from the front, (possibly by a small calliber bullet OR more PROBABLY by the solid-rocket-fuel propelled "flechette" which caused paralysis within less than two seconds through the chemical agent 46-40), and thus was incapable of taking cover to protect himself; "

Geeze.

Then he goes on to state "the laws of physics dictate.." but lapses into bad action movie "physics."

Guys don't fly off their feet when they get shot, even with a 12g.