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Posted: 9/12/2007 12:01:29 PM EDT
Talked to my examiner today and she said that the last meeting they had they were told it's now required for declaration of trust to be sent in so they can verify the legitimacy.
Link Posted: 9/12/2007 12:13:11 PM EDT
I vote for the immediate bolding/tacking of this thread and/or its information
Link Posted: 9/12/2007 12:57:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chromeluv:
I vote for the immediate bolding/tacking of this thread and/or its information


+1

I sent everything in anyway.
Link Posted: 9/12/2007 1:25:58 PM EDT
This has been the recommendation for some time now, and had been the practice of at least some examiners. It's good that it's being handled uniformly, and a good gesture on ATF's to cover your ass.
Link Posted: 9/12/2007 9:00:22 PM EDT
SO ARE YOU SAYING THEY WANT THE ORIGINAL COPY SENT IN FOR REVIEW THEN SEND
IT BACKTO YOU AFTER MAKING THEIR OWN COPY
Link Posted: 9/12/2007 10:35:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15freak2:
SO ARE YOU SAYING THEY WANT THE ORIGINAL COPY SENT IN FOR REVIEW THEN SEND
IT BACKTO YOU AFTER MAKING THEIR OWN COPY


No they want a copy of the Declaration not a copy of the Certification

as allready stated this has been going on (hit and miss)for a few months now
Link Posted: 9/12/2007 10:50:44 PM EDT
I sent a notarized copy of my Certification and a copy of my notarized Declaration (not a notarized copy)

It went through just fine.
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 1:14:56 AM EDT
And so it begins...... ?
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 9:05:54 AM EDT
So how does one go about notarizing the COPY of the certification?

I guess I'm confused on how many things actually are notarized - I used willmaker and printed out the declaration of trust. I then signed the declaration of trust in front of a notary, who filled out the Certification of Trust that says "yes, this is really RRA_223."

I have the Declaration (with only my signature) and my Certification (which is the sheet that the notary stamped and signed with my signature).

What did I miss?
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 10:22:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RRA_223:
So how does one go about notarizing the COPY of the certification??


Just print another certification and take it to the notary.




Originally Posted By RRA_223:
What did I miss?


Having the notary stamp & sign the Declaration as well
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 11:44:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RRA_223:
So how does one go about notarizing the COPY of the certification?

I guess I'm confused on how many things actually are notarized - I used willmaker and printed out the declaration of trust. I then signed the declaration of trust in front of a notary, who filled out the Certification of Trust that says "yes, this is really RRA_223."

I have the Declaration (with only my signature) and my Certification (which is the sheet that the notary stamped and signed with my signature).

What did I miss?


I'm sorry if I confused you.

Since the Delcaration is actually the "trust", ONE should be printed off, signed, and notarized. Make copies of this as necessary to send in to the ATF with each transfer.

You can print as many Certificate of Trusts as you want, and notarize all of them. Send a notarized copy into the ATF.
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 12:34:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 3:22:33 PM EDT
I sent copies of both of my forms and didn't have either notarized. They are copies. That is why your notary should put a little stamp in addition to the seal. It photocopies. The seal denotes the original. Copies don't need their own individual seals pressed into them.
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 6:04:13 PM EDT
I sent copies of both my declaration and certification or trust. The notary embossed the seal, but didn't have any stamp. When I made the copies, I set the copier for the darkest setting so that the seal would show up as much as possible. You can tell something is there, but you cannot necessarily read it. The notary did sign it, though, so hopefully that will be enough...
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 6:04:55 PM EDT
Why are some of you sending a Cert. of Trust AND the Declaration of Trust. All the Cert of Trust is is a document that stats you have a trust. Well, if you are sending your trust in, you obviously have it, so no need to certify that it exists.

As stated above, print your trust document(declaration of trust) and sign in front of a notary. Then make all the copies you want of that and send one to atf. You can actually reprint your original trust document from the Willmaker software and when you do, it will print COPY or DUPLICATE in light grey lettering across the entire page of every page of the document. Then just copy the notorized page with your signature and the notary's signature and seal and send the copies.

I wouldn't send my Schedule A and assignments of property. I don't think they need that and it's none of their business what property I have in my trust. Some people could have hundreds or thousands of items in trust.
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 7:14:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gaspipes:
Why are some of you sending a Cert. of Trust AND the Declaration of Trust. All the Cert of Trust is is a document that stats you have a trust. Well, if you are sending your trust in, you obviously have it, so no need to certify that it exists.

As stated above, print your trust document(declaration of trust) and sign in front of a notary. Then make all the copies you want of that and send one to atf. You can actually reprint your original trust document from the Willmaker software and when you do, it will print COPY or DUPLICATE in light grey lettering across the entire page of every page of the document. Then just copy the notorized page with your signature and the notary's signature and seal and send the copies.

I wouldn't send my Schedule A and assignments of property. I don't think they need that and it's none of their business what property I have in my trust. Some people could have hundreds or thousands of items in trust.


When dealing with the feds, it's always a good idea to send more than they need. You never know...
Link Posted: 9/13/2007 8:23:22 PM EDT
So what if they decide that your trust is not legit and you already own NFA items? Are you subject to criminal penalties? Would they allow you to forfeit the gun without criminal charges or would they let you transfer it to yourself?
Link Posted: 9/14/2007 12:25:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gaspipes:
Why are some of you sending a Cert. of Trust AND the Declaration of Trust. All the Cert of Trust is is a document that stats you have a trust. Well, if you are sending your trust in, you obviously have it, so no need to certify that it exists.

As stated above, print your trust document(declaration of trust) and sign in front of a notary. Then make all the copies you want of that and send one to atf. You can actually reprint your original trust document from the Willmaker software and when you do, it will print COPY or DUPLICATE in light grey lettering across the entire page of every page of the document. Then just copy the notorized page with your signature and the notary's signature and seal and send the copies.

I wouldn't send my Schedule A and assignments of property. I don't think they need that and it's none of their business what property I have in my trust. Some people could have hundreds or thousands of items in trust.


I'd not seen anybody sending JUST the Declaration, so I sent both.

I'd rather have the stamp then a letter saying I needed more when paper is so cheap... actually I did it at work so I didn't even pay for the paper & ink
Link Posted: 9/14/2007 4:01:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gaspipes:
Why are some of you sending a Cert. of Trust AND the Declaration of Trust. All the Cert of Trust is is a document that stats you have a trust. Well, if you are sending your trust in, you obviously have it, so no need to certify that it exists.

I wouldn't send my Schedule A and assignments of property. I don't think they need that and it's none of their business what property I have in my trust. Some people could have hundreds or thousands of items in trust.


When dealing with (or arguing with) the Federal Government... You will always lose. We don't use the "Big Brother" nickname for no stinkin' good reason, mang! So if sending in both copies makes a beaurocrat less likely to stir the pot on my behalf, then I get what I want and the BATFE keeps pushing paper and thinking that everything is smooth.

But to tell the Feds what they do or don't need... lol, well you can either live without your NFA toys or spend a great deal of time in the Federal pen defending yourself with thousands of dollars worth of legal representation. And even then they go home to their families at night.

Link Posted: 9/14/2007 5:18:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rcr29:
So what if they decide that your trust is not legit and you already own NFA items? Are you subject to criminal penalties? Would they allow you to forfeit the gun without criminal charges or would they let you transfer it to yourself?


No, you would simply appeal it. The trust is legit and you have owned NFA items through it already. The only reason that you would be denied with an already active trust is if you committed a felony, moved to a state that doesn't permit NFA, etc. while owning the trust. The trust still owns the items, but you don't get to have access to them.
Link Posted: 9/14/2007 2:25:19 PM EDT
Damn..I just mailed my Form 1 off today with Cert of trust.

I'll let you guys know if my check is cashed or if it's kicked back to me.
Link Posted: 9/14/2007 3:10:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kap_x:
Damn..I just mailed my Form 1 off today with Cert of trust.

I'll let you guys know if my check is cashed or if it's kicked back to me.


Doubt it, you will probably be ok. Only a select few seem to have problems. Since this whole "send in the trust" thing started I have had one come back approved and I should have another one in about a week come back, only by sending in my certification.
Link Posted: 9/14/2007 3:24:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jackal2001:

Originally Posted By kap_x:
Damn..I just mailed my Form 1 off today with Cert of trust.

I'll let you guys know if my check is cashed or if it's kicked back to me.


Doubt it, you will probably be ok. Only a select few seem to have problems. Since this whole "send in the trust" thing started I have had one come back approved and I should have another one in about a week come back, only by sending in my certification.


I feel much more comfortable using a Cert. of Trust anyway..since this is the point of the Cert, afterall.
Link Posted: 9/14/2007 5:35:43 PM EDT
I spoke to my examiner today. His name is Andrew Ashton. He said that he will get to my form1 next week. Anyway, I asked him about the whole Trust thing and what is acceptable to send (just so I would know if I was OK).

I told him that sent in the Declaration and Certification of Trust, both copies of the original notorized forms. I told him that the notory only had an embosser with a seal and no stamp, so I set the copier to the darkest setting so that the seal would show up as much as possible. I told him you can see the seal, but not necessarily read it. He said this was OK and that they are all that way.

He said that as long as I sent the Declaration of Trust, I would be OK for meeting the requirments. The certification is not neccessary, but he understands why I sent it just to be sure (shit changes all the time and it is better to send more than less).

Anyway, Certification of Trust is not enough alone. You must send the Declaration. They will cash the check about 1 week after receiving the packet, but your forms will not go pending for about 3-4 weeks after the check is cashed. "Pending" means that your forms have been entered into the system and assigned to an examiner. The examiner will, most likely, not even see your forms for another week or so. Only then, will they bounce it back to you when they discover that you only sent in the Certification of Trust.
Link Posted: 9/14/2007 8:24:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kap_x:
Damn..I just mailed my Form 1 off today with Cert of trust.

I'll let you guys know if my check is cashed or if it's kicked back to me.


My check was cashed for this one back the end of July...29th I think. It'll take a bit to get back to you.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 10:58:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2007 11:10:00 AM EDT by jackal2001]
Mine form4 was approved today w/ only the cert. of trust.

This is my 3rd one, so maybe the guys just starting out are required to send in the trust document.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 4:26:50 PM EDT
Do I need to send in schedule A along with the declaration of trust
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 5:27:24 PM EDT
Why in the hell do they need to see what is in the declaration for??????????????????? It is private stuff they not need to see. Well I will send my next one with everything but what is in my TRUST. So far I have had 5 go thru with just the Cert. Confusing my lil brain they are.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 9:00:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15freak2:
Do I need to send in schedule A along with the declaration of trust


I will not send that in. It's none of their fucking business.
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 10:09:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 2:37:28 PM EDT
Sent mine on 8/18 with just the Certificate of Trust and got approved on 9/12.
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 8:39:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jadams951:

Originally Posted By AR15freak2:
Do I need to send in schedule A along with the declaration of trust


I will not send that in. It's none of their fucking business.


I have a feeling that they already know about the NFA items...
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 3:34:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2007 3:34:56 AM EDT by NFATrust]
height=8
Originally Posted By Azrael2004:
Sent mine on 8/18 with just the Certificate of Trust and got approved on 9/12.
h
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 8:33:32 AM EDT
I just received a phone call from my examiner to fax my trust documents for a form 4.
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 8:40:57 AM EDT
We have always recommended that a full copy of the Trust be sent in with the Form 4. It is a good idea to use your last name or full name as part of the trust name. That way your documentation is easy to understand if you are ever stopped and questioned about the possession of the items.

I have many clients who are police officers and they all say that it makes their job and time you are "detained" much less if you have the Goldman Revocable Trust, and the name on your picture id is David Goldman.

Some have recommended using initials, or random names, that just makes it more difficult to show you are in rightful possession of the items

David Goldman
http://www.floridaestateplanninglawyerblog.com/estate_planning/gunfirearms_trust/
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 12:55:17 PM EDT
Hmm, I sent my Form 1 last month with just the Certification of Trust and it was approved on 9/11...
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 1:19:53 PM EDT
A week from sending back the paperwork it's already back approved!!!
Link Posted: 9/25/2007 11:50:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2007 12:40:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BookHound:
We politely explained that the Declaration of Trust document shows that the Trust is legal and that the assets of the Trust are private.

Mark


Link Posted: 9/26/2007 5:02:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2007 5:37:08 AM EDT by keatsabn]
I am the one Mark and Allen are talking about in his above post

OK,
A little background info.

I live in Georgia, this is not my first NFA transfer using my trust (#4)
What I sent-
o 2x Form 4
o 2x Citizen Cards
o 1x Declaration of trust minus Schedule A (I read here NFA wants that now)
o 1x Certification of Trust
o My Money

I had my form 4 go pending on the 11th of this month I called yesterday to see if it was approved lady said not yet it was sent to Ms. Flanigan (new examiner) for final approval. I asked to be transferred to her desk. I spoke to her she said she could not find my paperwork but she had a pile of trust transferees to look thru. She found mine in there, but she said there was a problem with my paperwork I was missing my schedule A. I was very polite and said that when I first did my trust that I have sent one in with my original paperwork and you should have a copy on file. I also told here that my schedule A now has a lot of personal items on it that I do not want out in the open or a matter of public record, she politely said that she needs it to complete the transfer and could not approve it without the Schedule A. (Very bad words and comments are going thru my mind and I had the good mind set to close the cake hole below my nose before I screwed myself) Yes, I do have my NFA items on it also. She said that she had called Allen over at Polite Society about needing the transferee's Schedule A's also .Allen did tell her that she was mistaken and the Certification of Trust by Georgia law was all that was needed. She told me that she did bring this to her supervisor’s attention and he stated that the Schedule A was needed. I just wanted my form 4 approved, I asked her if she would take an e-mailed copy. She said yes so I went in and took off all of my personal stuff on my Schedule A and left my NFA items and e-mailed her it. I stayed on the phone until she opened it up and said that it was good to go. She also said she was going to call Polite Society tomorrow. So I called Allen last night told him what happened and he was a little upset that they wanted it and said that he looks forward to her call and said if she does not call he will call her. And try and get it squared away for future transfers. I told him that I was going to post it here he said great he wanted to get the NFA communities take on it and to email him the link. So did I screw up by sending my Schedule A in? Should I have waited till she had Allen or Mark from Polite Society talk to the decision makers at the NFA? All I can say is if your forms go pending for awhile call and check something may be wrong. Ms. Flanigan was nice and professional I just think that who ever trained her leave a little to be desired. I went back and added all my personal stuff back on my trust and will wait for the call to come get my M4-1000.
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 8:47:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 8:54:06 AM EDT
Tag for updates
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 9:03:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 9:12:34 AM EDT
The check for my Form-4 (m11/9) cleared my bank 9/21.

I'm curious when/if I will get the error letter. (Cert of Trust only, just like my last 7)
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 9:15:00 AM EDT
I am curious if this only pertains to people that live in certain states.

There have been numerous people including myself that have never including anything other than a copy of the Cert of Trust. Like I said before I just had my M4-2K that I purchased from you (Mark) approved on 9/17/07 with only my Cert.
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 9:15:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 12:33:43 PM EDT
My form 4 for my aac pilot that got kicked back because they wanted the declaration of trust I sent them back in without the schedule A and got approved within a week of sending it back.
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 5:36:34 PM EDT
Not to muddy the waters but... I called today to ask if I needed to fax a schedule A. My examiner said nope I approved yours this morning
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 11:26:54 PM EDT
Mark if this is the case they will be calling you since I didn't not include that in my packet.
Let me know if we have NFA" Issues" to clear up for my AAC .22 can. Also my number has changed so I need some how to update my # with them.
Give me shout and let me know what you need from me.
Thanks.

Wolf-ym
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 1:21:48 PM EDT
Guys it is really very simple. When I first started doing trust for clients for NFA purposes, before I wrote the article for Small Arms review on the subject, the ATFE used to get a dozen or so trust transfers a year. Now they are getting several hundred a month. When it was just a few trusts here and there and most of them were attorney prepared they didn't worry. After I wrote the article and started posting of a couple fo webboards it started an explosion of trusts, many of them self drafted. They (the ATFE) are simply being careful to make sure that the trust is actually a properly formed legal entity (proper language, drafting, execution, etc.). Same reason the check with the secretary of state on a corporate transfer, to make sure the corporation is a valid legal entity. A certificate of trust is not going to prove that, only the actual trust agreement will. As for wanting the schedule A, in order to establish the trust it is necessary that you initially fund it with something and that is typically listed on the schedule A. Most attorneys will list something like $10 on the schedule A. As the trust agreement makes reference to the schedule A and the initial funding is necessary to legally establish the trust it goes without saying that you need to include the schedule A as it goes to prove the trust was properly established and is an important part of the agreement. While on the topic of the schedule A, it is not required that you list every NFA item in the trust on the schedule A if you don't want to. The Form 4 or 1 is proof of the trusts ownership of the item. If you want to add each NFA item to the trust schedule A, go ahead, but not necessary. You don't think Bill Gates lists every asset he has in his trust on his schedule A, the thing would be a encyclopedia. However, listing it on the Schedule A may make it easier for your heirs to determine which items are owned by the trust if they are unfamiliar with NFA ownership and the Form 4/1. As far as the change in trust transfer procedures I will be meeting with some of the folks at the NFA branch at the creek to hopefully discuss establishing procedures for trust transfers. I am also speaking at the NFATCA meeting at the creek on October 11th on the topic of NFA and trust ownership. I will let you know how it all works out when I get back.

Bob Howell, Esq., FFL/SOT
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 2:12:43 PM EDT
I have always sent in my declaration and schedule A, schedule A has only 2 lines in it, "All assets held in USAA Account ****XXX Revocable Living Trust Checking Account,"
"All Legally registered Class 3 Weapons registered in the state of florida under this named trust"


BTW that checking account has $5 in it
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