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Posted: 6/3/2006 2:11:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2007 12:43:47 PM EDT by tony_k]
This is an interesting post from another forum regarding setting up a Trust instead of a Corp for NFA item transfers. Sounds almost too good to be true.

Looking for comments from other people that have experience with this.

sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/669101014/p/1
Link Posted: 5/27/2006 6:04:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/27/2006 6:06:13 AM EDT by Lawman734]

Originally Posted By -Watcher
This is essentially where I'm at, too.  I've completed the Trust draft using Willmaker, leaving only the notarization as the remaining bit.  Before I do so, it would be nice to tweak the wording to allow others to use the NFA assets of the Trust.  Thing is, there seems to be no clear word on the legality of this to be found on the internet.



I'm in the same boat after using Willmaker as well. I was told that all trustees of the trust are legally able to carry/possess assets of the trust. However, in Willmaker they are referred to as "Successor Trustees". Does this mean they are only able to possess the items at the time I am incapacitated/die or are they eligible to possess/carry them now?
Also, the Certification of Trust-which I imagine is the document you need to keep with the Form4/Form1 only lists me as the grantor on the trust and doesn't mention any of the trustees. Is there an issue with them not being on the certification of trust or is it even required that you keep any of the trust documentation with the Form4/Form1?

I just want to be sure that if I let my brother use the item and I'm not around I'm not getting him into hot water.
Link Posted: 5/27/2006 6:25:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lawman734:
I just want to be sure that if I let my brother use the item and I'm not around I'm not getting him into hot water.


How do armed private security companies provide Class III gear to their employess?  Is this through completely different licensing?  Their day-to-day field employees are unlikely to be officers of the coproration.
Link Posted: 5/27/2006 7:16:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:
How do armed private security companies provide Class III gear to their employess?  Is this through completely different licensing?  Their day-to-day field employees are unlikely to be officers of the coproration.



While not an expert on the subject, I do believe they fall under quite different criteria than a simple LLC or Trust and have other licensing/registration requirements that they need to go through.
Link Posted: 5/27/2006 8:10:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/27/2006 8:12:47 AM EDT by -Watcher-]
Anyone know how to print only the Certification of Trust using Quicken Willmaker 206 Plus?  The Glossary talks about what the Certification is, but I can't find it anywhere in the printing options.
Link Posted: 5/27/2006 8:44:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:
Anyone know how to print only the Certification of Trust using Quicken Willmaker 206 Plus?  The Glossary talks about what the Certification is, but I can't find it anywhere in the printing options.


Check the 'Documents List'.  Should be the item just below the 3 types of trust.
Link Posted: 5/27/2006 9:09:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By parshooter:
Check the 'Documents List'.  Should be the item just below the 3 types of trust.


It was actually under Estate Planning.  Seems you can't actually print it until you have a signing date for Declaration of Trust.

I'm assuming in FL you can have as many Trusts as you like.  The downside of using the Willmaker software is that it will only title a Trust in the name of the Grantor.  It uses the entry for your name in the title and if you change your name, you change the Grantor which becomes "not you".

I suppose I'll have to copy and paste the final document into a word processor, then change the name of the Trust.  I'll just have to be careful to look at every place where the title is used differently from the Grantor in the text.  Then, I can do it again with the Certification.  That's the only way I can think of to create more than one Trust using Willmaker where the same person is the Grantor.
Link Posted: 5/27/2006 2:37:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/27/2006 2:40:14 AM EDT by -Watcher-]

Originally Posted By bad_aim80:
I am mostly concerned with others being able to handle said items.  Is this possible with a trust.  To me it seems like the way to go if it is indeed possible.


This is essentially where I'm at, too.  I've completed the Trust draft using Willmaker, leaving only the notarization as the remaining bit.  Before I do so, it would be nice to tweak the wording to allow others to use the NFA assets of the Trust.  Thing is, there seems to be no clear word on the legality of this to be found on the internet.
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 2:44:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2006 2:45:03 PM EDT by gopeterson]

Originally Posted By HKArch:

Originally Posted By Dmac1:
My dealer talked to ATF today(trying to find out for himself if a trust is legit). Examiner said oh ya, it's a big loophole we are trying to close. Also that when they did you would have to get fingerprinted but would probably still not need a LEO sign off.

Unless this is a joke, this looks like more tiresome and arrogant BATFE bullshit.  It's amazing how a law enforcement agent can claim what's stated in the law (and on those BATFE forms we have to fill out) is a loophole!


Originally Posted By Dmac1:
Who knows how long it will take to change but I'm glad mine will go out this week!

You're way ahead of me since I have yet to relocate to a better state...

It's beginning to look like a revocable living trust is the way to go.  But I do have questions:
1.  If I establish my revocable living trust in a Class 3/NFA hostile state like CA, but then move to a Class 3/NFA friendly state (let's say AZ) to buy the "naughty toys" I want, can I buy them through this revocable living trust I established in CA, or will I have to establish another trust in AZ before I go any further?
2.  Let's say I buy my "naughty toys" through my revocable living trust while a resident of a Class 3/NFA friendly state.  If I relocate again to another Class 3/NFA friendly state, is there any BATFE paperwork I need to deal with before taking my "naughty toys" with me?



1.  Revocable living trusts are generally not specific to any state and you should be fine moving from one state to another with it.  It is not like a corporation or LLC which is registered in a state.

2.  To temporarily or permanently transfer MG and SBRs between states you must send in and have approved form 5320.20.  Link
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 3:39:25 PM EDT
So as far as i understand it these are the benefits

Corp, LLC
1. All officers of corp can have possesion and access to said items (as long as they are not convicted felons)
2. No fingerprints or passport pictures to submit
3. Shorter tturn around time
4.  Limited personal liabilty (  please understand that we all do not try to go and shoot people on accident it just so happens there are a lot of dumb asses out there.)
Bad
1.  Have to renew the corp every so often ( how often and where can ifind out how often)
2.  If the corp lapses or dissolves you have to transfer said items immediately upon the dissolution of the corp.

Trust
1. Never have to renew or update however it can be updated at will with new items
2. You can be listed as the sole beenficiary and trustee, You can also list as many beneficiaries as you want ( can you list others on the trust who could also handle the items as well.  IE my wife so we could both go to the range at different times. Previous post are somewhat unclear on this, does anyone have the code on this)
3. No fingerprints or passport photos
4. quicker turn around time
Bad
1. No shelter from liability


I am mostly concerned with others being able to handle said items.  Is this possible with a trust.  To me it seems like the way to go if it is indeed possible.  However if not the corp, llc route way be the way but it seems like a lot of hasle to keep up to date.

Any info would be greatly appreciated  
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 4:46:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bad_aim80:
So as far as i understand it these are the benefits

Corp, LLC
1. All officers of corp can have possesion and access to said items (as long as they are not convicted felons)
2. No fingerprints or passport pictures to submit
3. Shorter tturn around time
4.  Limited personal liabilty (  please understand that we all do not try to go and shoot people on accident it just so happens there are a lot of dumb asses out there.)
Bad
1.  Have to renew the corp every so often ( how often and where can ifind out how often)
2.  If the corp lapses or dissolves you have to transfer said items immediately upon the dissolution of the corp.

Trust
1. Never have to renew or update however it can be updated at will with new items
2. You can be listed as the sole beenficiary and trustee, You can also list as many beneficiaries as you want ( can you list others on the trust who could also handle the items as well.  IE my wife so we could both go to the range at different times. Previous post are somewhat unclear on this, does anyone have the code on this)
3. No fingerprints or passport photos
4. quicker turn around time
Bad
1. No shelter from liability


I am mostly concerned with others being able to handle said items.  Is this possible with a trust.  To me it seems like the way to go if it is indeed possible.  However if not the corp, llc route way be the way but it seems like a lot of hasle to keep up to date.

Any info would be greatly appreciated  



The Trust route will accomplish anything the corp or llc route will.  One thing to keep in mind is that just because you have a NFA item in a corp or llc does not necessarily mean you will be shielded from liability if you are the one who is negligent.  As a hypothetical, suppose you are on the range with your M16 and you negligently shoot someone.  You can be personally liable because it was your conduct.  If another employee of the corp. negligently shoots someone you may be immune from personal liability absent some degree of negligence on your part, e.g. negligent entrustment of the NFA item with someone who is unqualified to use it, etc.
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 10:35:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:

Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I am guilty of being an attorney.


Assuming your are also knowledgeable concerning the NFA, as well, can you offer any insight into how Co-Trusteeship would be viewed with regards to whom would be able to lawfully make use of the Class III assets of the trust?  If it would not be totally out of the question, I would enjoy reviewing sections of the Act, should you be able to provide them.



I am knowledgable, but not an expert so I will state this with a caveat that you not necessarily take it as the gosphel.

Entities, such as corporation, LLCs, Trusts and partnerships are specifically authorized under the statute to possess NFA items.  They are each fictional entities and can possess nothing in their own right.  This means that a person authorized by the corporation, LLC, Trust, etc. may lawfully possess the NFA items.  

With respect to the Trust, Co-Trustees and beneficiaries should have the authority to possess the NFA item as long as the Trust permits it (or does not prevent it) and they are otherwise able to possess a NFA item, e.g. not a felon.   If I were drafting a Trust for someone to obtain NFA items I would explicitly state in the Trust document that any Co-Trustee and any beneficiary may possess and use any of the Trust assets (I would not be specific to NFA items).  That way if there was any question from the BATFE or LEO you could point to the terms of the Trust and say that the Trust is the owner and here is why X,Y and Z have the authority from the Trust to possess/use the NFA item.  
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 11:23:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CS223:
<snip>

You can include all the documents with the F1/F4's if you desire but one of the aspects of a Trust is maintaining privacy. BATF doesn't return any of those documents and who knows what they do with them. I wouldn't want details of my assets, accounts numbers etc. in the hands of .gov for no reason. A copy of the Certification of Trust most assuredly satisfys their requirements.

You professional comments are appreceiated.


Case in point: Millions of veterans' (~26.5M) personal info stolen
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 12:02:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2006 12:09:02 PM EDT by -Watcher-]

Originally Posted By gopeterson:
1.   It is easier to amend an Exhibit stating the assets of the Trust than amending the actual Trust document.


With my copy of the software now installed, I have entered "those items as listed in the assignment of property" in the field asking what property is being granted to the Trust.  Thing is, if I say that, how can I designate who gets what from the Truat amongst the beneficiaries?  You'd almost have to list the items in the Trust document, then slect them individually for assignment to your list of beneficiaries, else you will end up with equal co-beneficiaries to the sum of the items listed.  Or, am I wrong?


In terms of designating yourself as a both a Trustee and a Beneficiary, this is done all of the time in Estate planning and is perfectly permissible.

Unfortunately, the Quicken Willmaker 2006 Plus software does not allow you to enter yourself as the beneficiary of the Basic Living Trust.
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 1:56:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2006 2:24:22 PM EDT by -Watcher-]

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:
Unfortunately, the Quicken Willmaker 2006 Plus software does not allow you to enter yourself as the beneficiary of the Basic Living Trust.


Of course, upon further consideration, I don't suppose there's anything wrong with using the software to create the draft of the document, then copying it to word processing software, whereupon it could be amended to the desired amount prior to being enacted.  The real question at that point is to what degree such alteration may invalidate the Trust.  After all is said and done, the whole point of the software is to not screw up the document.
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 2:07:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dmac1:
My dealer talked to ATF today(trying to find out for himself if a trust is legit). Examiner said oh ya, it's a big loophole we are trying to close. Also that when they did you would have to get fingerprinted but would probably still not need a LEO sign off.

Unless this is a joke, this looks like more tiresome and arrogant BATFE bullshit.  It's amazing how a law enforcement agent can claim what's stated in the law (and on those BATFE forms we have to fill out) is a loophole!


Originally Posted By Dmac1:
Who knows how long it will take to change but I'm glad mine will go out this week!

You're way ahead of me since I have yet to relocate to a better state...

It's beginning to look like a revocable living trust is the way to go.  But I do have questions:
1.  If I establish my revocable living trust in a Class 3/NFA hostile state like CA, but then move to a Class 3/NFA friendly state (let's say AZ) to buy the "naughty toys" I want, can I buy them through this revocable living trust I established in CA, or will I have to establish another trust in AZ before I go any further?
2.  Let's say I buy my "naughty toys" through my revocable living trust while a resident of a Class 3/NFA friendly state.  If I relocate again to another Class 3/NFA friendly state, is there any BATFE paperwork I need to deal with before taking my "naughty toys" with me?
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 8:07:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CS223:
What is your basis for making these recommendations? Not a flame, just curious if you have a legal background.

Item 1. Ammending a Revocable Trust is something that you do throughout it's life as you move assets in & out of it. Or as Beneficiaries change or  die. AFAIK, as the Grantor, you can't make yourself the Beneficiary as well because as the Grantor of a Revocable Trust, you are in full %100 control. Beneficaries come into the scene upon your death at which time the Trust and it's directives become Irrevocable.

Items 2,3 & 4 are all part of the the Trust creation process and nothing special is required to create those priveleges.

5. You must assign some asset to the trust. I recommend that you put your entire gun collection into it or at least a checking or savings account. If you do a checking account, you can have the checks printed with "John Doe Revocable Living Trust"

6. All that's required is an original notorized Certification of Trust. I've done a number of F4 transfers for folks, no issues, period.




I am guilty of being an attorney.  I don't take your questions as a flame.  There are many alternative ways of doing things which are equally legally binding and correct.  Some methods are easier and promote efficiency.  Let me try and respond to your assertions.  

1.   It is easier to amend an Exhibit stating the assets of the Trust than amending the actual Trust document.  Rather than amending the Trust each time you purchase or sell a NFA item, which may require outside legal advice or may cause unknown legal ramifications, you can simply amend an addednum to the Trust to reflect the assets that are in the Trust from time to time.  It is simply a suggestion which makes things much easier than going through the process of the amending the complete Trust document.  If you want to go through the hassle of amending the Trust each and every time you buy and sell a NFA item, feel free, but you are likely spending more time and resources than you need to.

In terms of designating yourself as a both a Trustee and a Beneficiary, this is done all of the time in Estate planning and is perfectly permissible.  An irrevocable trust, generally speaking, become irrevocable when 1) Settlor (person making the Trust) changes it to be irrevocable; 2) Settlor dies or 3) Settlor becomes incapacitated.  Generally speaking it does not become irrevocable on the death of the beneficiary unless there is some language in the Trust that accomplishes that.

2-4.  Yes these are all generally privilegs of the Trust.  My recommendation is based on the fact that many LEO and even Class III dealers are unfamiliar with the Trust method of possession of NFA items.  If you have an official document that lays out that you can do X,Y. and Z it may prove helpful in showing the unintiated that you have authority to do what you are doing.  Again, feel free to do otherwise, but sometimes it is better to do more than you have to in order to limit hassles later on.

5.   Assigning a minor monetary amount to initially fund the Trust accomplishes all that you need to do.  If you want to put an entire bank account in the Trust's name then feel free.  I would not want my back account tied up in that because of the potential additional taxation issues, e.g. having to potentially file a separate tax return for the Trust based on interest earned, etc.  Again, to each their own.  

6.  The Certification of Trust may work,  My recommendation is based on hearing the fairly routine stories of Form 1s and Form 4s getting sent back for lack of documentation.  If you provide them more than they need you are less likely to run into the occaisonal SNAFU.

I hope this addresses the quetions you have.  My point is only to suggest there may be easier ways to go about doing things in order to limit administrative issues or other hassles down the road.

Link Posted: 5/26/2006 10:06:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gopeterson:

Originally Posted By CS223:
What is your basis for making these recommendations? Not a flame, just curious if you have a legal background.

Item 1. Ammending a Revocable Trust is something that you do throughout it's life as you move assets in & out of it. Or as Beneficiaries change or  die. AFAIK, as the Grantor, you can't make yourself the Beneficiary as well because as the Grantor of a Revocable Trust, you are in full %100 control. Beneficaries come into the scene upon your death at which time the Trust and it's directives become Irrevocable.

Items 2,3 & 4 are all part of the the Trust creation process and nothing special is required to create those priveleges.

5. You must assign some asset to the trust. I recommend that you put your entire gun collection into it or at least a checking or savings account. If you do a checking account, you can have the checks printed with "John Doe Revocable Living Trust"

6. All that's required is an original notorized Certification of Trust. I've done a number of F4 transfers for folks, no issues, period.




I am guilty of being an attorney.  I don't take your questions as a flame.  There are many alternative ways of doing things which are equally legally binding and correct.  Some methods are easier and promote efficiency.  Let me try and respond to your assertions.  

1.   It is easier to amend an Exhibit stating the assets of the Trust than amending the actual Trust document.  Rather than amending the Trust each time you purchase or sell a NFA item, which may require outside legal advice or may cause unknown legal ramifications, you can simply amend an addednum to the Trust to reflect the assets that are in the Trust from time to time.  It is simply a suggestion which makes things much easier than going through the process of the amending the complete Trust document.  If you want to go through the hassle of amending the Trust each and every time you buy and sell a NFA item, feel free, but you are likely spending more time and resources than you need to.

In terms of designating yourself as a both a Trustee and a Beneficiary, this is done all of the time in Estate planning and is perfectly permissible.  An irrevocable trust, generally speaking, become irrevocable when 1) Settlor (person making the Trust) changes it to be irrevocable; 2) Settlor dies or 3) Settlor becomes incapacitated.  Generally speaking it does not become irrevocable on the death of the beneficiary unless there is some language in the Trust that accomplishes that.

2-4.  Yes these are all generally privilegs of the Trust.  My recommendation is based on the fact that many LEO and even Class III dealers are unfamiliar with the Trust method of possession of NFA items.  If you have an official document that lays out that you can do X,Y. and Z it may prove helpful in showing the unintiated that you have authority to do what you are doing.  Again, feel free to do otherwise, but sometimes it is better to do more than you have to in order to limit hassles later on.

5.   Assigning a minor monetary amount to initially fund the Trust accomplishes all that you need to do.  If you want to put an entire bank account in the Trust's name then feel free.  I would not want my back account tied up in that because of the potential additional taxation issues, e.g. having to potentially file a separate tax return for the Trust based on interest earned, etc.  Again, to each their own.  

6.  The Certification of Trust may work,  My recommendation is based on hearing the fairly routine stories of Form 1s and Form 4s getting sent back for lack of documentation.  If you provide them more than they need you are less likely to run into the occaisonal SNAFU.

I hope this addresses the quetions you have.  My point is only to suggest there may be easier ways to go about doing things in order to limit administrative issues or other hassles down the road.




Thanks for the clarification, I knew there had to be more to your comments than random commentary. You're point on the amending the addendum is a valid one. One thing pointed out in the DIY process is that often, it's easier to create a new trust when there are alot of changes in lieu of amending it. Creating a new trust would of course be a problem with NFA items. You're method makes the issue easier to deal with.

Some of what you discuss may not be an option in the software that everyone is using, admittedly I haven't looked into it that closely. It would be interesting to compare a Trust that an atty created specifically for NFA against the canned Trust that the software creates and examine the differences.

You can include all the documents with the F1/F4's if you desire but one of the aspects of a Trust is maintaining privacy. BATF doesn't return any of those documents and who knows what they do with them. I wouldn't want details of my assets, accounts numbers etc. in the hands of .gov for no reason. A copy of the Certification of Trust most assuredly satisfys their requirements.

You professional comments are appreceiated.
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 10:09:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2006 10:11:16 AM EDT by -Watcher-]

Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I am guilty of being an attorney.


Assuming your are also knowledgeable concerning the NFA, as well, can you offer any insight into how Co-Trusteeship would be viewed with regards to whom would be able to lawfully make use of the Class III assets of the trust?  If it would not be totally out of the question, I would enjoy reviewing sections of the Act, should you be able to provide them.
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 2:58:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2006 2:59:02 AM EDT by gopeterson]

Originally Posted By parshooter:

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:
Did you use Willmaker?  I was/am uncertain if that software would allow you to complete the document without actually having at least one asset assigned to it.



Willmaker will prompt you to list what items are included in the trust.  Time it right with your dealer and you could list the actual item, with S/N.

Otherwise, just list what you intend to buy or build ie: 'silencer' or 'machine gun'.  The trust can be amended after the purchase.

Doesn't really matter either way.  You're actually creating two legal documents.  The 'Declaration Of Trust' is the actual trust.  The Declaration lists the specifics, who's who, who gets what, etc.  

The 'Certification of Trust' attests that the trust exists.  This is the form that is mailed to ATF.  It does not specify what assets are included in the trust.  



May I suggest that rather than "amending the trust" that you do the following:

1.  Create Trust with you as Trustee and Beneficiary (and whoever else you would like to allow to possess the NFA items);

2.  Expressly reserve the power of you as Trustee to use any items in the Trust;

3.  Expressly reserve the right to add and remove assets from the Trust (gives you the power to buy additional NFA items and sell NFA items that are owned by the Trust);

4.   Create an Exhibit to the Trust document that lists the assets of the Trust which can be modified by adding or deleting the NFA items.

5.  Initially fund the Trust with a nominal monetary amount pending receipt of the NFA item.

6.  I would err on the side of inclusion when sending Trust related documents to the BATFE and send them the entire Trust document and not just the Certification of Trust.  I'm not saying it won't be processed without the entire Trust, but I would rather not have to worry about it being hung up by one person's questions or intepretations of the regulations.

Just my own thoughts so feel free to disregard.
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 3:15:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I have the trust, I just haven't gotten around to buying anything under it.  Thanks for reminding me! Gemtech Outback II here I come...


Did you use Willmaker?  I was/am uncertain if that software would allow you to complete the document without actually having at least one asset assigned to it.



The trust I just created for my son has a number of my older bolt actions in it for him. Simplifies family politics and mechanics with the step-mom. I reserved the power to move items in and out of it as I need to do so.

A plus for me is that I've already got a CLEO signoff on two Form 1's so it cannot be said that it is a dodge but is a way that I can insure that my estate will be handled as I desire. A big minus is that I'm going to have to get two more transfer stamps when I move the SBR's into the trust.

wganz

Link Posted: 5/26/2006 4:01:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gopeterson:
1.  Create Trust with you as Trustee and Beneficiary (and whoever else you would like to allow to possess the NFA items);


As I understand it, you can't set yourself as the Grantor and the Beneficiary.  A Trust is an instrument to transfer property in the event of your death, but also with provisions for your incapacitance.  I'm unclear regarding the legality of Co-Trustees with respect to NFA.  Sure, you can set it up, legally, with as many Co-Trustees as you like, defining their power as you see fit, but my understanding of NFA is weak with respect to this aspect of Trusts.

In another thread I started in the FL Hometown, I was looking for an attorney to answer some of these questions.  So far, no FL attorneys have posted a reply.


2.  Expressly reserve the power of you as Trustee to use any items in the Trust;
3.  Expressly reserve the right to add and remove assets from the Trust (gives you the power to buy additional NFA items and sell NFA items that are owned by the Trust);
4.   Create an Exhibit to the Trust document that lists the assets of the Trust which can be modified by adding or deleting the NFA items.


In creating a Basic Living Trust, these are features already incuded in the document.


5.  Initially fund the Trust with a nominal monetary amount pending receipt of the NFA item.

Why?


6.  I would err on the side of inclusion when sending Trust related documents to the BATFE and send them the entire Trust document and not just the Certification of Trust.  I'm not saying it won't be processed without the entire Trust, but I would rather not have to worry about it being hung up by one person's questions or intepretations of the regulations.

I work for government, now, and see how information is improperly handled.  I won't get into how many officials have been removed from office or the ramifications of their actions, except to say I'm convinced government is better off having only what they actually need to comply with the law.  It's not as if should it come to a hold due to insufficient documentation that I couldn't resubmit.

Where I'm concerned, all feedback is welcome.  After all, the decision to follow is with the reader and I expect most of us are here for the opportunity to learn something.
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 5:55:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gopeterson:

May I suggest that rather than "amending the trust" that you do the following:

1.  Create Trust with you as Trustee and Beneficiary (and whoever else you would like to allow to possess the NFA items);

2.  Expressly reserve the power of you as Trustee to use any items in the Trust;

3.  Expressly reserve the right to add and remove assets from the Trust (gives you the power to buy additional NFA items and sell NFA items that are owned by the Trust);

4.   Create an Exhibit to the Trust document that lists the assets of the Trust which can be modified by adding or deleting the NFA items.

5.  Initially fund the Trust with a nominal monetary amount pending receipt of the NFA item.

6.  I would err on the side of inclusion when sending Trust related documents to the BATFE and send them the entire Trust document and not just the Certification of Trust.  I'm not saying it won't be processed without the entire Trust, but I would rather not have to worry about it being hung up by one person's questions or intepretations of the regulations.

Just my own thoughts so feel free to disregard.



What is your basis for making these recommendations? Not a flame, just curious if you have a legal background.

Item 1. Ammending a Revocable Trust is something that you do throughout it's life as you move assets in & out of it. Or as Beneficiaries change or  die. AFAIK, as the Grantor, you can't make yourself the Beneficiary as well because as the Grantor of a Revocable Trust, you are in full %100 control. Beneficaries come into the scene upon your death at which time the Trust and it's directives become Irrevocable.

Items 2,3 & 4 are all part of the the Trust creation process and nothing special is required to create those priveleges.

5. You must assign some asset to the trust. I recommend that you put your entire gun collection into it or at least a checking or savings account. If you do a checking account, you can have the checks printed with "John Doe Revocable Living Trust"

6. All that's required is an original notorized Certification of Trust. I've done a number of F4 transfers for folks, no issues, period.

Lets get something clear here. A trust is a Legal Binding Entity, just like a Corp. It isn't something that can get tossed aside once created and notorized. It can be used to prosecute you if it is used in a manner inconsistant with the law or it's purpose. You are required to maintain i.e. amend it as you move assests in & out.  You can never disolve it as long as there are assets in it and you cannot disolve it with NFA items in it or they become illegal contraband. You must sell or otherwise transfer the NFA items prior to dissolution of the Trust.

There are no issues with putting NFA items in a Trust, it isn't a 'loophole', Trusts have a history dating back to the Roman times, it's well entrenched in law. With the value of NFA items today it is advisable to use a Trust simply because it can eliminate alot of headaches with your heirs in the value of the assets & the probate process. You can just imagine your relatives & heirs fighting over a a M16 that you bought for $13k and upon your death was worth $30k.

As others have stated here, it would take action by Congress to change the NFA process for Trusts.

I highly advise doing the following though. Create a document that describes in intimate detail the legalities surrounding the NFA items in your possession, describe the process required for disposing of them,  describe a method of locating Dealers that can assist with their disposal. Describe how to complete the forms for a tax free transfer to your heirs. There are plenty of FAQ's online that you can use as an outline or modify. There have been enough instances where once legally possessed NFA items have become contraband as a result of heirs being unfamiliar with NFA items and the transfer process. Attach these instructions to your original F4's and to your Trust documents and have redundant copies. Yeah, it will be a little work to keep your ammendments up to date as you buy/sell stuff, maybe 15 minutes, but don't put it off.
Link Posted: 5/26/2006 6:49:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:


5.  Initially fund the Trust with a nominal monetary amount pending receipt of the NFA item.

Why?


6.  I would err on the side of inclusion when sending Trust related documents to the BATFE and send them the entire Trust document and not just the Certification of Trust.  I'm not saying it won't be processed without the entire Trust, but I would rather not have to worry about it being hung up by one person's questions or intepretations of the regulations.

I work for government, now, and see how information is improperly handled.  I won't get into how many officials have been removed from office or the ramifications of their actions, except to say I'm convinced government is better off having only what they actually need to comply with the law.  It's not as if should it come to a hold due to insufficient documentation that I couldn't resubmit.

Where I'm concerned, all feedback is welcome.  After all, the decision to follow is with the reader and I expect most of us are here for the opportunity to learn something.



Many states require a trust to contain property for it to be valid.  My trust was funded with $1 cash that I keep in the envelope with the trust documents.  (There's no requirement in my trust to invest the assets.)  

The way I did it is that the trust refers to the assets as are contained on Attachment A.  The attachment isn't notarized and can be amended freely.  I will err on the side of caution and send the entire trust document to the ATF, rather than just a certification of trust.  The only personal info on it is my name and my wife's name, and the ATF probably knows that already.    
Link Posted: 5/25/2006 6:32:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I have the trust, I just haven't gotten around to buying anything under it.  Thanks for reminding me! Gemtech Outback II here I come...


Did you use Willmaker?  I was/am uncertain if that software would allow you to complete the document without actually having at least one asset assigned to it.



Yes, you have to have at least one asset assigned to it. Use your checking or savings account.
Link Posted: 5/25/2006 6:34:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:
Did you use Willmaker?  I was/am uncertain if that software would allow you to complete the document without actually having at least one asset assigned to it.



Willmaker will prompt you to list what items are included in the trust.  Time it right with your dealer and you could list the actual item, with S/N.

Otherwise, just list what you intend to buy or build ie: 'silencer' or 'machine gun'.  The trust can be amended after the purchase.

Doesn't really matter either way.  You're actually creating two legal documents.  The 'Declaration Of Trust' is the actual trust.  The Declaration lists the specifics, who's who, who gets what, etc.  

The 'Certification of Trust' attests that the trust exists.  This is the form that is mailed to ATF.  It does not specify what assets are included in the trust.  
Link Posted: 5/25/2006 4:05:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I have the trust, I just haven't gotten around to buying anything under it.  Thanks for reminding me! Gemtech Outback II here I come...


Did you use Willmaker?  I was/am uncertain if that software would allow you to complete the document without actually having at least one asset assigned to it.
Link Posted: 5/24/2006 3:31:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Watcher-:

Originally Posted By in_burrito:

Originally Posted By AIRBORNE5697:
Living in Florida what is the best type of Living Trust to start? Should I go to a lawyer or can I do it myself? Besides being Notorized what else do I need to do?  Also does it need to have assests in it before I can add any NFA items?


I had a lawyer do it.  He set it up specifically for NFA items and has language in it that pertains to NFA items.  I don't have any assets in the trust as of yet.  It's currently just a legal entity with zero assets.  I'll be buying an Outback II suppressor soon and that will be the first asset of the trust.


Being in Mousetown, I'm curious where your attorney is located.  I wouldn't mind getting a copy of an NFA-specific Trust for my own use.

As a tangent, what are the specific requirements for marking and storing NFA items (like suppressors) once you do own them?



You don't have to mark anything, only if you build a can, SBR, SBS on a Form 1. Store them like any other firearm, securely. There are no requirements, nothing has to be done differently individual vs. trust. And you do not need a trust set up specifically for NFA items.  A revocable trust is advised so that you can sell any of your acquired NFA items in the future.
Link Posted: 5/23/2006 7:04:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:

Originally Posted By AIRBORNE5697:
Living in Florida what is the best type of Living Trust to start? Should I go to a lawyer or can I do it myself? Besides being Notorized what else do I need to do?  Also does it need to have assests in it before I can add any NFA items?


I had a lawyer do it.  He set it up specifically for NFA items and has language in it that pertains to NFA items.  I don't have any assets in the trust as of yet.  It's currently just a legal entity with zero assets.  I'll be buying an Outback II suppressor soon and that will be the first asset of the trust.


Being in Mousetown, I'm curious where your attorney is located.  I wouldn't mind getting a copy of an NFA-specific Trust for my own use.

As a tangent, what are the specific requirements for marking and storing NFA items (like suppressors) once you do own them?
Link Posted: 5/22/2006 6:28:48 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 5/21/2006 11:38:08 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 5/18/2006 3:12:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2006 3:48:17 AM EDT by Hobbit]

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I had a lawyer do it.  He set it up specifically for NFA items and has language in it that pertains to NFA items.



What did you and your lawyer write into the trust specifically for NFA items? Was it re: acquisition, access, liability, or what?
-Hobbit
Link Posted: 5/13/2006 1:46:14 PM EDT
I have no idea if willyv is on to something or not, but I know someone here has the bucks to give it a shot.

If nothing else, you will have my eternal gratitude and a special place in the afterlife for providing new $700 M-16's to all the needy.
Link Posted: 5/13/2006 10:53:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CFFUTS23:
My new Blackside came in yesterday and my Outback II should be in any day.  I got my trust documentation signed in front of a notary last night, so I'll be submitting the documentation something next week.  I'll track all the timelines and post my process if anyone is interested.



One of the guys at the range is a notary so he can do the CHL processing, so I'm going to get him to notarize mine there. Since the others are already there and being processed, my intentions are to let them process through with a CLEO signoff then transfer them to the trust. The transfer tax is a PITA but don't have to do everything at once. Everything else is going to go through the trust.

Now, where do I go shopping for some cans for my new SBR toyz?

wganz

Link Posted: 5/11/2006 2:40:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gopeterson:


FYI.  If by "leaving cans to another family member" you mean when you die, the transfers are tax free.



Yes that is what I meant. I was not aware that it was a tax free transfer. Thanks for enlightening me.
Link Posted: 5/11/2006 11:33:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2006 3:14:13 PM EDT by Brazos]
...delete thread, ban user...

I figured it out...



B
Link Posted: 5/11/2006 1:55:05 PM EDT
My new Blackside came in yesterday and my Outback II should be in any day.  I got my trust documentation signed in front of a notary last night, so I'll be submitting the documentation something next week.  I'll track all the timelines and post my process if anyone is interested.
Link Posted: 5/11/2006 2:17:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CFFUTS23:
My new Blackside came in yesterday and my Outback II should be in any day.  I got my trust documentation signed in front of a notary last night, so I'll be submitting the documentation something next week.  I'll track all the timelines and post my process if anyone is interested.



That would be extremely thoughtful of you. TIA
Link Posted: 5/11/2006 9:27:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2006 9:27:53 AM EDT by Dmac1]

Originally Posted By willyv:

Originally Posted By Dmac1:
My dealer talked to ATF today(trying to find out for himself if a trust is legit). Examiner said oh ya, it's a big loophole we are trying to closehinking.gif. Also that when they did you would have to get fingerprinted but would probably still not need a LEO sign off.

Who knows how long it will take to change but I'm glad mine will go out this week!




As far as ownership, that means that the ATF will have to get the definition of the word "person" , which includes a trust, amended in the Internal Revenue Code, which will require Congressional action. So watch the bills being dropped.

I don't see fingerprints as a big deal. As far as regulations requiring trusts to have to obtain LEO approval, well, they can probably do that, even with the DC case, but changes to the regulations will be subject to a comment period in the Federal Register.

All the more reason for someone to try to build a trust owned post-86 MG per my prior post.

Regards



Really, the fingerprinting is no big deal so even if they do implement that part a trust is still a great way to go. My reasons for doing it were to avoid the taxes when leaving cans to another family member(long way offhave
Great way to go if  LEO won't sign off. Even if  you had to get printed it sounded like the LOE signature would not be needed.
Link Posted: 5/11/2006 10:08:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dmac1:

Originally Posted By willyv:

Originally Posted By Dmac1:
My dealer talked to ATF today(trying to find out for himself if a trust is legit). Examiner said oh ya, it's a big loophole we are trying to close. Also that when they did you would have to get fingerprinted but would probably still not need a LEO sign off.

Who knows how long it will take to change but I'm glad mine will go out this week!




As far as ownership, that means that the ATF will have to get the definition of the word "person" , which includes a trust, amended in the Internal Revenue Code, which will require Congressional action. So watch the bills being dropped.

I don't see fingerprints as a big deal. As far as regulations requiring trusts to have to obtain LEO approval, well, they can probably do that, even with the DC case, but changes to the regulations will be subject to a comment period in the Federal Register.

All the more reason for someone to try to build a trust owned post-86 MG per my prior post.

Regards



Really, the fingerprinting is no big deal so even if they do implement that part a trust is still a great way to go. My reasons for doing it were to avoid the taxes when leaving cans to another family member(long way off)and to allow my wife to have access to them.

Great way to go if  LEO won't sign off. Even if  you had to get printed it sounded like the LOE signature would not be needed.



FYI.  If by "leaving cans to another family member" you mean when you die, the transfers are tax free.
Link Posted: 5/11/2006 10:31:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2006 10:32:02 AM EDT by tony_k]
Link Posted: 5/11/2006 5:42:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2006 6:05:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By willyv:
As far as regulations requiring trusts to have to obtain LEO approval, well, they can probably do that, even with the DC case,



Not familiar with the 'DC case'. Do you have a link so I can read up on it?

Thanks,

wganz
Link Posted: 5/10/2006 1:07:31 PM EDT
My dealer talked to ATF today(trying to find out for himself if a trust is legit). Examiner said oh ya, it's a big loophole we are trying to closehinking.gif. Also that when they did you would have to get fingerprinted but would probably still not need a LEO sign off.

Who knows how long it will take to change but I'm glad mine will go out this week!

Link Posted: 5/10/2006 1:15:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dmac1:
My dealer talked to ATF today(trying to find out for himself if a trust is legit). Examiner said oh ya, it's a big loophole we are trying to close. Also that when they did you would have to get fingerprinted but would probably still not need a LEO sign off.

Who knows how long it will take to change but I'm glad mine will go out this week!




That's funny.  How can a loophole exist when it is plainly in the statute permitting Trusts to own NFA items?  It's not different than a corporation, partnership, or any other fictional entity owning NFA items.  How exactly do you fingerprint a corporation, partnership or trust anyway?
Link Posted: 5/10/2006 1:22:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2006 2:21:11 PM EDT by kbarrett]
Deleted.

Post was repeating earlier posts.
Link Posted: 5/10/2006 2:03:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2006 2:05:29 PM EDT by willyv]

Originally Posted By Dmac1:
My dealer talked to ATF today(trying to find out for himself if a trust is legit). Examiner said oh ya, it's a big loophole we are trying to closehinking.gif. Also that when they did you would have to get fingerprinted but would probably still not need a LEO sign off.

Who knows how long it will take to change but I'm glad mine will go out this week!




As far as ownership, that means that the ATF will have to get the definition of the word "person" , which includes a trust, amended in the Internal Revenue Code, which will require Congressional action. So watch the bills being dropped.

I don't see fingerprints as a big deal. As far as regulations requiring trusts to have to obtain LEO approval, well, they can probably do that, even with the DC case, but changes to the regulations will be subject to a comment period in the Federal Register.

All the more reason for someone to try to build a trust owned post-86 MG per my prior post.

Regards
Link Posted: 5/10/2006 2:46:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sloppyrob:
Can this trust be setup in New York State?  Im not talking NYC.  I have been told that an SBR signoff would never happen in my county....or is it the New York State ban that stops this?    Please inform me if im completely wrong.  Could I SBR a Pre-Ban??



Sorry my friend, but I do not believe that SBR or MGs are legal in the State of New York.  A Trust is not going to make it legal.  You need to move to a red state and get some freedom.
Link Posted: 5/10/2006 3:12:16 AM EDT
interesting.  too bad IL doesnt let us have any fun stuff
Link Posted: 5/10/2006 7:05:35 AM EDT
The state of NY does allow AOW's and Large Bore Destructive Devices.

MadDog
Link Posted: 5/10/2006 1:04:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sloppyrob:
Can this trust be setup in New York State?  Im not talking NYC.  I have been told that an SBR signoff would never happen in my county....or is it the New York State ban that stops this?    Please inform me if im completely wrong.  Could I SBR a Pre-Ban??



As far as I know Trusts are legal in all 50 states.  NFA isn't legal in all 50 states, so if NFA items aren't legal in NY state a Trust won't allow you to own them.  A Trust only exempts you from fingerprints, CLEO signature and passport photos.
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