Posted: 1/25/2008 2:19:39 PM EDT
I've done some searching and have seen pics of peoples 1st line ect. gear but don't quite get what it is all about. Pics with the explaination would be helpful too.
Very basically explained;
1st Line: Stuff you carry with you ALL the time. Includes any of the stuff you carry in your pockets or on your trouser belt, can include a holstered handgun and knife,
2nd Line: Warfighting rig - LBV, Assault Vest, Chest Rig, plate carrier, etc. Stuff that you "wear" that holds all your fighting stuff.
3rd Line: Your pack and everything that goes in it.
Some items can float from one line to another...like a small survival tin can be 1st or 2nd line. Handgun might go on a MOLLE belt or in a chest rig, which is 2nd, or on your trouser belt, which is 1st.
Mags might be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, depending.
1st line: Dump puches, small first aid pack, drop legs, etc, the minimum you would need to fight, think small and light, and fits on a belt.
2nd line: The main stuff you carry to sustain a fight, think your vest and everything on it. Comms, ammo, armor, atc.
3rd line: Think heavy long sustainment. Packs, extra Beans, Bullets, water, cold gear, wet weather gear, etc. Think anything you would put in a truck or in a pack and hump.
Sorry no pics, maybe I'll get some up soon.
Thanks guys. Now how about some pics. Maybe add why you have what you do in each "line".
this topic has come up several times in the survival/survival gear forum, and there have been pic threads about it, so maybe try a search there also.
here is a list of stuff from a gear vender's 'info' page:
Field cap BDU or boonie hat
With IR tape sewn in
Heavy or light Goretex jacket
Black leather or Nomex gloves
1st LINE GEAR
(in pockets or on pants belt)
Rigger’s belt w/safety ring
Pen flares w/4-6 flares
Pistol holster w/mag pouch
Pistol magazines (2)
Signal (orange) cloth
Pen and pencil
Compass, lensatic w/case
US Dollars/gold coins
2ND LINE GEAR
(carried on web gear)
(short term supplies if ruck ditched)
Rifle magazine (1-2)
Load bearing vest or harness
Rifle magazine pouches
Rifle magazines, 30 round, (7-13)
Rifle magazine, 20 round, (1)
Rounds, rifle, 4x1 tracer, 210-390
One quart canteen w/cover
Water purification tabs
Bottles taped to canteen
Canteen collapsible 100 oz
w/drinking tube, backpack
Strobe light w/case & batteries (2)
Knife, utility/survival w/sheath
Camo paint compact/stick
Pistol holster (if not on 1st line)
Pistol magazine (2)
Pistol magazine pouch (double)
Snap link, locking D (2)
First aid kit, individual w/case
Compress bandage w/case
Cravat bandage (2)
Flashlight, mini w/filter and case
Chem lights (2-4)
50 – 150 ft of 550 cord
Ground recognition panel (VS-17)
Insect repellent (SSS)
12 ft nylon utility web strap
Grenade pouch (1-3)
Grenade, fragmentation (4)
Grenade, smoke, white
Grenade, smoke, colored
Grenade, thermite/white phosphorous (opt)
40mm grenade rounds (12-15)+special rnds
40mm grenade pouches/carrier
Flare, parachute (1)
Global Positioning System w/case
3rd LINE GEAR
Rucksack, ALICE w/frame or CFP-90
Sleeping bag system w/cover
Ground pad, cut and folded
Ground sheet/space blanket
Bandoleer w/120 rnds rifle ammo
Rations, 3 days, MRE or LRRP
Wool socks (3 pr)
IR chemlights (5)
Canteen, 2 qt. w/case
Water purification tabs
Waterproof bag (2)
Poncho (light or heavy)
Lightweight Goretex top and bottom
Polypropylene top and bottom
Field jacket liner
Wool watch cap (black)
BDU uniform, seasonal (1 set)
Brown T-shirt (3)
Underwear (3, opt)
100 mile/hour tape
Snap link (1)
Personal hygiene articles w/case
Weapons cleaning kit
Tire repair kit
Field-exp antenna kit
Solid core brass wire
Entrenching tool (1/buddy team)
Machete (18 in.) (1/buddy team)
Sling rope (Swiss seat), 12-15 ft
Plastic bags, seal-able
Sand table kit
4th LINE GEAR
(stowed gear at base)
Climbing gear kit
Net, camo, 5’x9’
Net, general purpose
Extra BDU’s (2 sets, 1 pressed)
Civilian clothes/shoes (2 sets)
Towel, brown (2)
5th LINE GEAR
(mission essential gear)
One time pads
Radios, PRC 117, 109, 77, 74, 90
Firing train for special munitions
M-5 aid kit
Claymore mine kit
M-14 mines and booby traps as necessary
Anti-intrusion devices as necessary
Night optical devices ANPVS-7B
Helmet, PSGT Kevlar
Vest, protective, fragmentation/ballistic
Carrier, trauma plate
Protective (gas) mask
Single point release system
Quick release assembly
RECOMMENDED FIELD GEAR CHECK LIST
I think you missed the actual question I was asking. By question was pretaining to 1st 2nd and 3rd line gear not what items are needed in a survival kit. This is a question of combat gear.
But thanks for playing.
Love these threads.
ETA: dont think he was listing a survival kit, the items he listed would be stuff you would pack in a 2nd/3rd line.
I just finished organising my storage space, and repacking my 3rd line and this gives me a reason to take pics of all the gear now that it is updated. Basic explanation included- if you want to know more, please dont hesitate to ask.
I run 2 seperate complete rigs to match what I want to do - From go to the Bug out Drill in WACO at Tiger Valley, to take a round intensive course for several days- to just take a walk or go camping, or shoot and train.
Here is my "heavy" 1st line - .45 G21
Light 1st line- 9mm G19 - Run W/O light (If I want 9mm and a light, I can fit it in the G21 holster) A knife is alos on this line - I just havent moved it again.
Both 1st lines have a stocked IFAK only missing 1 more thing, and are packed idenically.
Heavy 2nd line _god-of-war_ rig. Pistol is .45 Only 7 mags in the boar, I keep an extra radio batt in the slot. Interceptor styled carrier with steel plates and tripple mag shingle - This allows me to just grab armor and a rifle, or to easily and quickly dump the mags and don the bushboar. PSAGT with 3 point and Pvs mount.
Packed in its home
Light second line 9mm pistol mags
Upgraded all maxfire lights to 100+ lumen Cree leds, runs for 3 hours.
Light Third- patrol pack- stays @ home
Note the single point sling attachement from GEAR SECTOR, lets me just clip the rifle to my ruck while hiking.
Water purification methods, and drink mix, 3-4 days of energy bars
Socks and liners
PVS14 in pelican case
Heavy 3rd line -BOB/GHB-
Stays in my trunk with 1 gallon of water (there is also a full 100oz bladder)
I have a bag not pictured that contains 1 green fleece, 1 tan fleece watch cap, Gortex top and bottom and gasmask with extra filter.
I could easily live out of this bag for 3+ days.
GEAR PRON in teh actions.
DING DING DING you are correct sir
based on AK's comment of "Maybe add why you have what you do in each "line"." would help answer the question
oh BTW thats some kick ass shit you got there you win the 'post of the week' award
No doubt. You are me hero. Theach me your ways Sensi.
Show us your gear if you run the West of the Pecos Run N Gun in the Sun event. :)
Do you do that one? I did my first one in 2007. Very interesting. Me and some other folks plan on doing it again this year.
What are the shot shells on your first line set up for?
I have tried a number of pouches for mags on my first line, and actually started with 4 rifle and 2 pistol on the belt with USGI issue. I have fucked with so many different arrangements that I noticed that most of the "other" shit could be hung on 2nd line or packed in a third. I have had a hard time balancing the ammount on each line. I run Tactical Taylor pouches on my .45 line and wanted to try a different brand of mag pouch for the 9mm line. I HATE the pouch for the 9mm line that holds rifle mags - I have a very hard time fitting the mags in the pouch, and the velcro barely holds.... I wont knock the product by naming it, but will instead suggest the TT pouches as better. They have the option of allowing you to add 2 shot shells to each pouch and I had a few extra slugs sitting around. It looks odd, but works really well. After practicing reloads with it, it is almost faster than the side saddle. I only run the shotguns in my loadout for "fun" or class. It is "my" belief that shotguns are for breaching, or anti vehicle duty only. Just my .02 and I only run 00 or 1oz slugs. I have a pump and a semi - each hold 9 shells with 7 and 11 extra shells on each.
I have not done the run and gun, but would be interested - I would have to drag my neighbor in to it also.
I have additional supplies in my garadge that I did not post, Those serve as heavy 4th line if you want- lots of food, a tent and sleep bag, water, extra clothes ect. The 4th line is ment to be stratigicly "ditched" as a re supply point on a back up rally point on the way to an objective. My third line is meant to be carried for a ways- through the objective, or also dumped at a rally point.
The one thing I have learned is that I wanted to keep each line as light, and modular as possible. This will allow me to mix and match to meet my needs. I used to run a plate carrier, but that with 11 rifle mags and plates was too heavy (40 lbs ish) and the water blader on back messed with a pack.
Here is the evolution that I have gone through in terms of gear - Notice my early trend to put a bunch of heavy shit in places it does not need to be.
As always, feel free to ask anything you want -
All my gear 2yr ago before my Patrol Rifle class with Paul Howe-
After the class, I reconfigured my gear to meet more realistic use
Then I went throug a stage where I put too much shit on my 1st line and bought a plate carrier.
With in the year, I had put my GHB together to let me make it home from work on foot (35 miles urban)
Then I started thinking about modualrity - but only a little- I still wanted to pack on as many mags as I could.
Then I went bannannas with gear and set up a light 3rd line, made new working 1st lines and revamped my light 2nd line. This is where I went throught the stage of just stuffing extra ifak stuff in each dump bag as well as having a ifak - just too much shit.
How I store shotgun ammo for rapid deployment - I also keep 1 bando with each shoty.
15 00 and 10 1oz slug per bando.
This is when I had the bush boar and PC and knew the PC had to go for the time being - I had a hard time adding soft armor to the PC as well. You can see that my pistol mags on the boar have changed in postion and type several times - I finaly have something that I think will work well.
Oh and you HAVE to have some clothes to go with that gear right? 2 sets of each and 5x sets of analog woodland - courtesy of uncle surgar- and be sure to check your gear under IR too right?
Sorry for all the pics, I just love gear. I hope I take as many pictures of my kids growing up when I have them....
How do you like the Kelty MAP? Have you used an Eagle A-III? If so, how would you compare the two?
No need to be sorry for the pics. They're great. And yes you'll take at least as many of your kids. I have a 16 month old daughter.
Also have you tried any 7.62x39 AK mags in either of you 2nd line rigs?
The "third line" is the difference between mechanized and light infantry. The mech guys leave all that shit in the track and the light guys have to strap it on their backs and walk around with it. And the light guys drop it when they expect a fight because it's the stuff that you need to sustain a long operation but that isn't important enough to justify the weight and bulk to carry around when there's bullets flying.
The "second" line is the stuff you actually use for fighting. All the things are heavy enough that you'd rather not carry them but important enough that you cannot leave them behind.
The stuff you have left after dropping off your pack and all the fighting gear is your "first line".
The purpose of the exercise is to make sure that when you are deciding where to carry your gear, you think about how and when you are likely you need it. You should keep a knife and your pistol and pistol mags on the first line so that you've always got a weapon available to you. Spare mags should be on the second line. Additional mags and ammo should be available in your third line. A blow out kit on the first or second line should contain the important stuff to handle emergency care but stuff like anti itch cream and aspirin can stay in a med pouch on the third line.
Very clear discription HOLO thank you.
no 7.62 mags for the bush boar, you can adapt the back pannel for 7.62, but it is a seperate peice. And you have seen the 74 mags in my eagle skd rig. I would only be using my 74 if I had too, or if I was doing long distance patrols, or in a class and wanted cheap ammo, as it is light and accurate. Now, if I ever get my AR in 5.45 built, that will see alot of play.
I saw the '74 mags but the 7.62 mags have nore of a curve. I was actually asking about the eagle rig.
Let me check with my other neighbor with the 47 - I dont imagine that it would be a problem though.
Sorry, missed that.
I have never tried the Eagle III
I have used the CB motherload and others.
I love the Kelty, I got my 2 for free. I have seen them for about 100$ on line.
I would say the kelty is the most comfortable bag I have ever run. I have gone about 10-12 miles in mine with 45lbs and had no pack issues. It holds a bladder and everything I want. The only thing I don't like, is now that I have a specialized load out I try and keep in it, I would prefer molle webbing inside to arrange gear specific pouches. The shoulder straps are the shit, the waist belt is = to lumbar support on a framed ruck and it has a massive amount of storage. The stitching is good and the zippers are the bomb. This is my favorite pack right now. When I ran it at the BOD in Waco, I hooked a flap holster, 2 pistol mags and 2 rifle mags to the waist strap with no issues, and hooked my rifle in the cinch loops on the side. There are extra loops to add straps on the bottom too. And the IR signature is very good.
Fixed for spelling
Check out the 47 mags and let me know. I think I may just kick myself for not ordering the multicam rig when I had the chance. I like the Diamondback Tactical AK rig but I called to check availibility and it was 6-12 weeks. Eagle make an AK rig which I really like but SKD only has them in black and Ranger green.
HERE HERE!! Tack my thread. +1
Any one esle want to share whats in the 1st 2nd and 3rd line gear? Pics are welcome.
Any idea as to why the AK rig doesn't have the molle webbing all the way across the bottom?
Does any one run a FAK on both their 1st and 2nd line gear? I have 3 put together in some 100rnd SAW pouches I bought real cheap and was going to put a kit on all three lines of gear. Any thoughts on this idea?
small one on line 1 or 2 bigger one attached to 3 or in 3
Which reminds me, I need to start putting aside a little from each paycheck to start my first line rig. Keep this thread going, people!
Ok, got my Eagle AK chest rig yesterday. It's very nice but the picture on SKDs website shows it with padded shoulder straps and mine are not. It also doesn't say anything andout the padded straps being an option so I assumed they came that way. Is the pic wrong? Did I get screwed? Is SKD the kind of company that'll make excusses or make it right? Please let em know what you guys think.
Call em. They should fix it ASAP - they are good people.
I can't find a number on there site.
Toss something over into their industry section - They posted there seveal days ago and monitor their accounts often.
you do realize that the flat webbing shoulder straps are MORE conducive to better cheek welds and interfacing with other equipment vice the padded straps.
I have filled dozens of requests to convert Padded into unpadded webbing shoulder straps for these, UTVs and M4 rigs.
+1 thats why I went from the SKD rig to the MAV, as it 'interfaces' with my backpack better
if you need/want, you can get shoulder strap pads from HSGI, they are nice, and you can get them in Multicam
You guys make a very good point. That's why I love ARFCOM. I tried the rig with my pack today and you were right. There's no way it would work as well with the padded straps.
I also ordered a set of the DBT suspenders to go with the DBT molle belt I have. Think I'll have any issues running the suspenders under the chest rig?
This is a good thread.
I am working on my 1st line gear yet again. I find that I am constantly adapting and tweaking things to add extra comfort and utility. Right now I am at the point where I think one more change will pretty well have a working rig I can live with for a while.
For second line, I am running an Eagle/SKD universal chest rig, which I love. It gives me the ability to carry either 4 (or 8 if I choose) 30 round AR mags, 4 pistol mags for the Glock and has enough extra room on either side to attach extra pouches via MOLLE webbing. On one side I am running a small pouch for my FRS/GMRS portable radio. On the other, I have a blow-out kit.
For 1st line, I am using a 2" BattleLab duty type belt. On it, I have been keeping a 9mm Glock in drop-leg rig, two extra pistol mags in a horizontally attached double mag pouch (I need to mount it this way to allow it to clear the bottom of my chest rig, as I am made weird and have a somewhat short torso and long legs....lol), a Surefire G2 light in another horizontally mounted pouch on the other side, a small dump pouch on the left side and out back I have two Nalgene pouches sitting on the corners.
But here is where I want to change. I'd like to get the first-aid items on the belt. Since that is where first aid items should always be, since the 1st line will always be with you, this is where I want to move it to. But in order to do that, I am going to have to get rid of something else on the belt. That something else will either have to be one of my Nalgene pouches or the dump pouch. I really like the idea of having two Nalgene bottles because it takes a while for the tabs to purify the water. So I can be drinking from one while another is being purified and always have access to water that way. But if I move the med kit to the belt, it will likely take the place of the Nalgene pouch on the back/right.
Hmmmm. I guess I could always move one of the Nalgenes to the 2nd line in the place left by the vacated first-aid kit. I could survive using one water bottle if I had to ditch the combat load. But I couldn't survive a wound requiring packing to stop severe bleeding without an aid kit. So this is one of those areas where I must compromise due to priority.
And now that I think about it, I'd really like to get a 1 or 2 mag rifle pouch added to the belt as well. If one had to drop their main fighting line in order to lose weight to gain speed and mobility, it would royally suck to be limited to a handgun only and whatever rounds remained in your inserted rifle mag. So having a spare or two on the left side of the belt may take priority over the dump pouch as well. Dump pouches are nice. But again, I can live without a container to hold empty mags on my side. I can't live if I run out of rounds for my weapon. So if current thinking prevails, the dump pouch will have to go and will be replaced by a rifle mag pouch. I can always throw the empties down the front of my shirt if I really need to save the mags. Otherwise, the empties will just have to lay where they fall when ejected.
Once I get these chages made, I think I'll have a 1st and 2nd line rig tailor made to my needs that will likely be able to serve quite a while without need for further changes. But developing a rig sure is a process of trial and error, change and more change and sorting priorities. But it is still fun!
So first line is what you carry in your pockets?
On a daily basis?
i.e. keys, light, wallent and carry handgun?
On a normal workday for Joe Civilian like me, yes.
OST, and tack it!
Usually, my everday gear is a lighter, three sets of keys (one is on a Larue Dillo which makes a great impact weapon, a surefire light with strike bezel and a glock 10mm.
I think a majority of people interested in this thread are trying to understand how to set up a fighting 1st - 3rd or are gathering tips/tricks on how to better mount their gear. The others are using gear for competitions, 3gun, classes or general prep for SHTF. Probably 1 in 10 of us are .mil, or LEO who would actually gear up in all 3 lines.
I dont count my 3 knives, keys, wallet, cell, flashlight as 1st line, becuse I carry that everywhere all the time(although the argument could be made as that being my true first line). I count belts, mags, handgun, IFAK (range or shooting) stuff as my first line. I post my daily carry gear in the CCW - empty your pockets threads becuase it would be hard to post a CCW 2nd or 3rd line here. But if you have one, I would like to see what it consists of.
I guess for me in "everyday" mode:
1st line: keys, wallet, pocket knife, flashlight, cell phone. I always have this stuff with me except for rare situations like a courthouse or an airplane.
2nd line: pistol and spare mags. I call this second line because it is more likely to be removed, such as when going out to a bar or crossing into another state.
3rd line: All the stuff I carry in my truck, which could be a thread to itself.
This is a great thread and should be tacked!
I wondered where the hell this thread went.
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